Slariton

Yeah, that's not a random drop. Check the scripts.

One question about boats: are we talking Avernum style boats (yay), or Geneforge 3 style boats, which have to be one of the few Spiderweb inventions I completely and totally despise? Quote: Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar: By the way, Rentar was legendary before Erika was even born! Technically, Rentar was only asleep before Erika was born. But seriously, the implication of what the Olgai Council and other Vahnatai say in E/A 2 is that Rentar was not legendary -- she wasn't even the most powerful Vahnatai mage extant.

The issue isn't that the Shock Trooper is unplayable, it's that it has no useful advantages over other classes -- it's entirely suboptimal.

I think Luck still boosts your chance to-hit with any attack by 2%, and your chance to-dodge any attack by 2%, per point of Luck. It may still claim to increase armor and resistances (though in A4 that effect was a phantom benefit).

Well, that math was a nightmare. And all for not too much. The total skill points used were almost the same -- 213 vs 215 Inf vs Serv. However, something must have changed since Synergy did his run (in the beta) as the total skill points used are 213, when he only should have had 205. Yes, we accounted for all the items AND charms AND canisters AND boosts from dialogue (like hte Dillame Luck boost). There are a few other quirks -- his mental magic is lower than it should be given the investment shown by the cost to advance in his JPG. Also, there are some skills that were pumped either abnormally high, or neglected altogether, which could push the balance in either diretion. Strength was at an unnecessary 18 with items, which helps the Infiltrator's case, while Quick Action and Parry were ignored altogether, which helps the Servile's case. And Synergy didn't utilize the trainers much in this game. The Infiltrator had 290 HP and 465 Essence; the Servile would have had about 400 HP and 400 Essence. So... it seems the HP and Essence differences may be more significant than the skill differences after all.

Hmm. It's possible there's a level limit that nobody here has encountered, as 17 is indeed very high to pump those skills What might shed some light is that for shaping skill 1-10, you get +1 level per point of skill. For 11-20, you get +1 level on the even numbers, so you get +11 at 12-13, +12 at 14-15, and so on. 16 and 17 both provide +14 levels. For 21-30, you get +1 every three numbers, so 29-30 get you +18.

Quote: Originally written by Synergy67: I may bother to dig up my buried Infiltrator, but how are you going to quantify the experience of potency and versatility all through the game arc? How do you want to quantify it? If you have backup saves from the middle of the game, use some of those. Or make a new character, iamweak your way to level 20, and add some items from your Synergy List. *shrug* I have provided evidence in the form of math. You have provided rhetoric and anecdote. What you have provided sounds reasonable, but it's up to you to substantiate it. Quote: How do we address my point about investing mostly in geek techs early on to keep up with Leadership and Mechanic requirements for optimal experience gain and non-retreading of otherwise cleared territory? I addressed that point 2 posts above. That's a pretty minor delay at best, for any character. If you disagree, quote me and explain what you disagree with. Quote: You can buy melee/missle/quick action and parry two levels. You can't buy a level of any magic category. But that DOES NOT CHANGE THE NUMBERS AT ALL. All characters can buy those levels, but to reiterate, the effective difference for the same investment in skill points remains relatively constant regardless. (And you can buy Spellcraft, of course.) Quote: There is not equivalent gear to boost your magic abilities on nearly the same scale, and in particular not across the board. You stated before that you thought 9 in each magic category was sufficient. If that's the case, it's not too expensive for Infiltrators OR Serviles and there is no *need* for such gear. Quote: So, how's the servile at an advantage in chapter one, for starters? That's 1/5 of the game right off the bat in which the Infiltrator feels more powerful overall and kicks butt plenty fine in both skills, magical and melee. The servile, meanwhile, lags in magic ability by comparison. I'll give you an experiential answer here since you seem to prefer those. The extra HP and Parry skill the servile gets allows him to take more hits than the Infiltrator. Meanwhile, his magic is somewhat weaker, but he has access to all the same spells. There's not any great battle magic available yet, and even on Torment it doesn't take many points in Mental Magic to make Daze effective in chapter 1. So from my experience, he has no real disadvantages vs the Infiltrator, but is hardier and that offers a lot of flexibility in terms of how you approach combat.

I'm not really sure what could be done, aside from giving it rather large bonuses in some area. The "problem" is not the class so much as the game balance itself. Melee is less versatile than magic and not any stronger. Magic can support creations and melee basically can't. So creations + magic will always be better than creations + melee, unless there are really gross bonuses involved.

I don't remember what the base levels are but the actual maximum levels are higher. You can get +3 or more from Create X skill for everything except Drakons (in G3), and you can get +18 from X Shaping, if you were insane enough to pump it to 29. This is not a very useful point, but there it is

Quote: Originally written by Synergy67: it hardly seems worth the bother for what seems so intuitive and obvious to me. If it doesn't seem worth the bother to prove your point -- particularly when most of that bother falls on somebody else who has to do all the math -- why the heck are you debating this? What's the good in asserting something if you aren't willing to back it up? As Hume said: "Commit it then to the flames: For it can contain nothing but sophistry and illusion." Quote: 16-24 magic level ups and 7 melee level ups are in consideration for each build, which wants to be powerful in both magic and melee. One build does magic cheaper and one does melee cheaper. Which is more cost-effective overall? Isn't this glaring? What matters more, how many skill points it takes or how many times you have to push the + button? This is glaring propaganda. Incidentally, there are 21-22 magic level ups and 11-15 melee level ups at stake, if we are going by the earlier comparison. Quote: It's also not as simple as final tallies. One has to consider the full arc of the game, how strong, competent, and capable you are at each stage, and also where those points come from. Having more and stronger magic sooner in the arc of the game is not readily quantifiable, but experientially makes a significant difference and I contend is more of an advantage than having stronger melee early. I agree that you should consider the whole arc of the game, but the final tally gives a good representation of that. Again, the advantage any class has over any other class in a given skill stays close to constant for any amount of investment beyond zero. Quote: I don't know about other people, but game strategy which relies on endless swapping of gloves and boots in every battle to be able to cast the appropriate magic at the appropriate moment, well, kind of sucks... That I whole-heartedly agree with. If you're not willing to substantiate your argument with something beyond "this is how it feels to me," I don't know how you expect anyone to believe it.

Quote: Originally written by Synergy67: Quote: Originally written by Slartel Runeaxe: In my comparison, I suggested FAR less than getting to 9 in melee, missile, and parry. I actually suggested getting to 4 in strength, 7 in melee, 0 in missile, and 0 in parry. You just made my point. With the Servile, you select making battle skills your cheapest investment, and then don't capitalize on that advantage much at all. What a waste of the Servile's discount advantage. Magic wants the most investment, and with magic cheapest, you get the most efficient use of skill point cost. Except that you don't. We neglected to mention Quick Action in the above comparison, which is obviously essential to melee. My comparison was meant to be conservative, as I said; a more generous investment in melee skills would obviously favor the Servile more. But even with that minimal investment, if you want both melee and magic skills, the Servile was better by the numbers. You are right that I don't feel the need to use the most discounted category as much as possible. I feel the need to use the best category as much as possible. And you are right that magic deserves more attention than melee for almost any character, including the Servile build we are discussing. That does NOT automatically mean you're better off getting the magic discount. If you could take the Servile's starting stats with the Infiltrator's skill costs, there's no question that would be even better. But the Servile's starting stats (combined with the melee discount) end up making more of a difference in terms of skill points than the Infiltrator's magic discount. Quote: Here's the picture as the experience. As an Infiltrator, you start out with more and better magic ability... You DO NOT start out with more and better magic ability. Well, the Infiltrator gets one point in Spellcraft, and one in Mental Magic, so it's minutely better. But getting up to 5 points in a category costs about 7 for a Servile vs about 4 for an Infiltrator. That's hardly prohibitive for a Servile. You start with 15 skill points and will be at level 4 or 5 before you even have the chance to buy any spells that need skill boosting. The spells in Illya don't require very high magic stats either, so you're likely to hit level 15 or 20 before you *require* higher magic stats. The Servile might well boost ahead of time, anyway. Quote: It is useful to have Daze alone work better earlier. Very useful. There are times when Battle Magic is very useful when you can't or don't want to run up for melee and a missle isn't very effective. This is all true. However, there's no reason a Servile can't do this practically as well as an Infiltrator. Actually, the last part isn't true. Missile weapons almost exclusively use the exact same attack abilities as spells do. Icy Spray isn't going to work if an Icy Crystal doesn't, and so on. Quote: Meanwhile, early in the game, it is ideal for any PC to rapidly ramp up Mechanics to 6 or 8 and Leadership to 6. This makes the majority of the SP early on going into these categories to keep up if you want to play the game most aptly sequentially. This makes it hard as a Servile to keep up in magic since the cheap skill points are only going into the melee ability. Everything else is more expensive and progresses slower and lags. This is patently false. First of all, a Servile doesn't need to pump melee abilities at all early on. You can, but you don't need to. Second, it will cost a Servile about 10 and 14 respectively to get 6 Leadership and 8 Mechanics. You can get that by level 3. That leaves you with about 30 skill points to use on magic skills, just within Illya Province! The lag in magic skill does not really increase. It is fairly constant. Although the Servile has to pay an extra point every buy, the buys get more expensive for both classes. So the Servile will pretty much always be 2 points behind in any magic skill given the same investment. For Spellcraft it is about 1 point behind since it starts out more expensive for both, but the Infiltrator also gets the bonus point of Spellcraft. Quote: My Servile could not boast the same magic ability nor creations capacity and the cheaper melee/battle ability did not compensate for more expensive magic. I believe you 100%. I also believe that you did not use skill points to the same ends for these two characters. Quote: I'm ignoring the points of your argument because you are ignoring the simple point of mine, that there is more magic than battle skills you will want to buy in the game, and having cheaper magic is more cost effective than having cheaper battle ability, period. No, I have acknowledged this point from the beginning! Of COURSE magic is more powerful and more important! But that does not automatically make the magic discount the most critical thing. This is why you DO have to do the numbers out. Therefore, I think Thuryl's idea is a good one. Post your stats. Let's have a duel with statistics. ~_~

I had the same experience. Be glad you didn't get to the Eastern Gallery. Imagine a 3x5 (or so) set of map squares with mostly interconnected basements, with chitrachs everywhere. Actually, don't. It's painful even to imagine it.

Chitrachs were not always this annoying. Sure, they were always hack n slash fests, but I remember them as being sort of interesting when they first appeared in E2. Back then, of course, they did things other than just attack. The real problem is having about 30 map sections (counting the basements) filled with Chitrachs. That was utterly ridiculous.

Quote: Originally written by Synergy67: (Getting three categories to 9 is not an insignificant investment. I don't find it nearly as useful to bring Melee/Missle/QA/Parry all to 9.) I can make a powerful melee fighter out of an Infiltrator no problem with less than 9 Melee or Missle or Parry, but the extra essence and cheap magic ability of the Infiltrator is a big payoff.... What the heck? Have you listened to anything I've said? We can be more precise than saying getting three categories to 9 is significant. It's a difference of 22 skill points. In my comparison, I suggested FAR less than getting to 9 in melee, missile, and parry. I actually suggested getting to 4 in strength, 7 in melee, 0 in missile, and 0 in parry. You keep assering "cheap magic ability" even though the difference is not that huge. And you are again asserting the essence is a "big payoff" without responding to what I said about the extra essence earlier. Making unexplained assertions while refusing to address what the other person says is not debating, it's trolling.

Synergy, you respond to everything I say by making the same assertions. So, let's make this simple. If you never ever want to use melee (and don't care about your HP), obviously the Infiltrator is better. If you never ever want to use magic (and don't care about your essence), obviously the Servile is better. Obviously, this is also extremely foolish. If you want to use melee and magic, the two classes will both function fine. The Servile will do this in fewer skill points, however. ... If you are going to keep asserting this "speed of gaining magic" advantage you claim the Infiltrator has, please address my point from the last post. It doesn't exist.

I am guessing those are the Drakon, War Trall, and Gazer canisters in Khima-Uss.

Synergy, I am not saying your experience is invalid. But just as the numbers are no good detached from the game, the reverse is true; you need to look at how your experience intersects with the class advantages and disadvantages. Nobody is questioning that magic is more important than melee. But as Penumbral Thahd pointed out, and as you acknowledged in your suggestion of 9s across the board in magic, the important thing is just getting to the point that you can cast the spells. Infiltrators DO NOT get magic earlier than Serviles. They start with the same skill in BM/MM/BM, the Servile just has to pay 1 more skill point per level. So there is WAY more than enough time for the Servile to accrue the required skill before the spells become available. Blessing magic IS NOT more powerful with a higher skill level. It just lasts a little longer. (If this were not the case, then Blessing Magic and Spellcraft would be by far the most valuable skills and Infiltrators might well be the best class. It's not the case.) You are saying that magic is better, therefore the Infiltrator is better. The problem is that the Infiltrator really isn't any better at magic.

You can get +6 to Fire Shaping and +4 to Battle and Magic Shaping from items. Lifecrafters start with 2 in Fire Shaping, so it's worthwhile to buy 2 levels at any rate. EDIT: And unless Randomizer's list is incomplete, there are no Fire, Battle, or Magic Shaping canisters.

Quote: Originally written by Synergy67: Quote: Originally written by --Slarty: It takes significant investment in melee skills, and especially in Quick Action, if you want to have a reliable melee attack. I've never found this actually to be the case. I can practically count on one hand the number of times any PC I've ever created seems to have missed hitting something with a melee weapon for starters. After the first few cheap boosts to Melee, I invest in Strength which is more useful all around. I get very good results with Quick Action which readily enough winds up around 8-10 for me with either build. I get double strikes frequently with a modest investment in QA. Yes, you will rarely miss. That's irrelevant; you will rarely miss with ANY PC attack that you invest in. (Anyway, spells miss less often; they have higher base to-hit rates and all your investment goes into skills that boost the to-hit rate, whereas Quick Action does not boost to-hit.) By "reliable" I am not talking about hitting every turn, I am talking about reliably doing your best damage. Quick Action of 8-10 means you will get a double strike approximately 40-50% of the time. That's not reliable at all! You absolutely need those double strikes if you want your damage (in any given turn) to meet the damage you can get out of battle magic. In a prolonged fight i.e. vs Matala, it matters how many you get overall but not on any given turn, so 50% vs 70% is not a huge difference. If you are fighting a bunch of Wingbolts, being able to take out one per turn might mean the difference between life and death. A 50/50 chance to double strike is just not gonna cut it. Quote: Again, I did not find the Servile to be overall more powerful in more situations for its cheaper fighting skills compared to the Infiltrator for its cheaper, earlier magic strength. How does an Infiltrator have "earlier" magic strength, but a Servile doesn't have the same thing for combat skills? That was a completely gratuitous adjective. Looking at effective skill differences, compared to a Servile, an Infiltrator will have about: -4 Melee skill (str + melee weapons) -4 Quick Action -5 Parry -1/4 HP +2 Battle Magic +2 Mental Magic +2 Blessing Magic +2 Spellcraft +1/6 Essence However, these differences are eroded for skills you only need to build up to a certain low point. If you aren't using Battle Magic to attack, then ALL the magic skills fall into that category, and Spellcraft isn't worth buying with skill points. Quote: Melee damage is so big eventually, a few extra points in Melee or Strength don't add up to one less swordstroke to make the kill typically. The earlier build up in magic skills and power really shows throughout the game though. You need to explain this, because it sounds like bunk. You're right about melee damage, but the same thing certainly applies to battle magic damage, and a few extra points in blessing or mental magic are mostly useless, beyond what you need in order to get the most useful spells. Quote: Quote: For the same investment in magic skills, an Infiltrator only gets 2 more per magic skill plus 2 more in Spellcraft compared to a Servile. It's the cheap magic that leaves one caught up/ahead in magic and resultingly you have more XP to invest in a bit more Strength or Meleee or QA as necessary. This makes NO SENSE. You are saying that the Infiltrator's magic bonus lets it buy melee skills. But doesn't the Servile's melee bonus let it buy magic skills the same way? In terms of raw skill point cost, the bonus a Servile gets to combat is slightly bigger than the bonus an Infiltrator gets to magic. If you want both classes to get combat and magic skills, the Infiltrator is just not going to come out ahead. That's the balance of the numbers. Quote: With Magic, ultimately, conveniently, one might want to wind up with three times nine levels in each (not to mention that Spellcraft is one of the most powerful things to be able to boost and it's very expensive to most builds. That's like 24 bumps up (not even including Spellcraft,) unless you like to rely on losing AP swapping gear around in the middle of fights every time you want to cast a certain class of spells. I do not need to make 24 bumps up in Melee/Strength/QA/Parry to make a very powerful melee fighter...much less, really, and there is lots of gear to permanently boost many of these stats, especially Strength. Okay, let's try this out. Pumping the three magic stats up to 9 each will cost 16 + 20 + 16 = 52 for an Infiltrator 23 + 28 + 23 = 74 for a Servile That's a difference of 22 skill points. Now let's look at melee stats. We'll consider an extremely minimal investment in melee stats -- enough to get each class to equal strength, a few cheap points in melee weapons -- getting it to 7, which is 4 buys for either class -- and enough to get Quick Action to 10. I still think that's a lamentably low QA, but you said it was enough, so we'll use that number. Str + Melee + QA 00 + 06 + 16 = 22 for a Servile 08 + 10 + 34 = 52 for an Infiltrator That's a difference of 30. The magic numbers ignored Spellcraft, in which the Infiltrator gets an effective +2, and the combat numbers ignored Parry, in which the Servile gets an effective +5. There are also the HP and Essence differences. I don't think either of those is game-breaking, but a Servile has 10 HP for every 8 of the Infiltrator, while the Infiltrator has 7 Essence for every 6 of the Servile. The essence really won't make any difference at all unless you are making a bunch of creations -- and if you are doing that, neither battle magic nor melee weapons are going to make a huge difference to you. The HP bonus is similarly useful, but not critical, given the availability of Augmentation, Essence Armor, etc. Also, the Servile gets an extra point in Mechanics (likely worth 5 or 6 skill points). Quote: I don't care how the numbers add up technically. *facepalm* Then why the heck are you debating how the numbers add up??? If you want to say "I enjoyed playing as an Infiltrator more. It felt more powerful to me," nobody's going to argue with you. But that's not what you've been saying.

Yeah, that is true. I don't think it's totally worthless. If you're a lifecrafter who has already pumped Int up hugely, it might be worth it to spend 6 skill points to get your Drayks and Kyshakks an extra 2 levels each.

Edited. I'd like to second Khoth's comment. This is a useful way to find stuff.

I just updated the tables, because I realized I accidentally made a major goof in the first version -- I did out Artila and Roamers as acid damage, even though they do magic damage. The result is that Magic Shaping no longer looks like a viable path whatsoever. You don't have any answer to Wingbolts, which means you are probably forced to make Drayks, and at that point, you might as well have done Fire Shaping.

I think the number of tools needed is based on the proportional difference between object strength and mechanics skill. Trying to open a weak door with mechanics 1 vs mechanics 2 will often have a difference of multiple living tools.

Helping Moseh requires 10 Leadership, not 8. I suggested 8 natural leadership with the +2 from items. You could skip that, but there are plenty of 10 leadership requirements after Moseh. If you care so little for the XP bonuses I'd say just skip leadership entirely, don't even bother getting to a natural 6.

Quote: Originally written by Synergy67: It is easier to make effective melee and missle skills than magic, and magic is king in GF4. I agree the Infiltrator is overlooked, and not a bad class. But I take issue with the above statement. It takes significant investment in melee skills, and especially in Quick Action, if you want to have a reliable melee attack. Battle Magic is the same way. However, the importance with other spells mainly lies in getting high enough skill to cast the spells. Blessing spells increase in duration with skill but not in power, for the most part. I'll say it agian. For the same investment in magic skills, an Infiltrator only gets 2 more per magic skill plus 2 more in Spellcraft compared to a Servile. The Servile gets larger bonuses to melee stats. The Servile gets 1/3 more HP, while the Infiltrator gets only 1/6 more Essence.