Aran

And when did the Vahnatai occupy the surface? I guess I know who we'd have to ask here: Drakey. Anyone know if he's still gone, or if yes, how long till he'll be back? Orangutan (if I may call you that ), yes, the thread has gone off-topic after a while; you can skip over all of that map/site design/graphics discussion, it's irrelevant to this history. If you want to have the whole map of Ermarian (the only one currently existing is a little inaccurate, I've been told) you can get one here .

Let's think... I got it! It's from Tolkien! The traditional Tolkien elf! Dunno why they'd choose the traditional elf for a movie totally unrelated to Tolkien - ie. Lord of the Rings. [/sarcasm]

1. TM said that interbreeding took place, so his definition could hardly have been that of a tiny fairy creature. So when he says that they interbreeded, by definition he must have meant elves that were large enough. 2. Well, that's a matter of taste, for my part I've always been fascinated by elves, both in Tolkien's (and later writers') books, and in RPGs - my BoE scenario will also contain them, albeit in another world. It's just that I feel elves and Ermarian should be separated, and I somehow don't like the idea of primitive, prehistoric elves living as cavemen. It seems undignified. Edit: Okay. This is getting ridiculous. I make a post about the two histories between which to choose from (I'm not saying someone can't post their own suggestion here btw), and over 24 hours there's only one vague comment about elves not fitting into the world (which I agree with btw). I'd make a poll, but there don't seem to be that many choices yet and I think we should have more of an discussion before there's a poll. I'm editing this post because I don't want to purposely double-post again in the same thread, so I just have to hope someone reads this thread again in spite of there being no new post. C'mon, y'all. Suggest something.

1. Concerning "no elves". I totally agree with that, it's not me you're trying to convince here. 2. Concerning size, I don't know what you imagine when you think of elves, but I get this picture of Tolkien's Eldar in my head, slender build, longer life-spans, usually taller (!) than humans. It would seem that TM has imagined the elves on Aizo to be rather like primitive caveman, biologically like Eldar, but not as civilized. So no one is saying anything about these elves being tiny.

I'm awfully sorry for the double post, but we got a little sidetracked here, and this thread has been kinda inactive lately. So to wrap up: The thing currently in development is the timeline of emperors of the Aizonian Empire, and what is currently going on - seemingly - is that TM and Stareye have two different versions of the founding of said Empire. It'd probably be best if we could try to reconcile these versions, because the history articles can only be written once the facts are all known. The current versions of the Aizonian Empire being born, to summarize: Quote: Originally written by Stareye "According to legend, over thousand years before the Empire on Pralgad, the immortal archwizard named Phrizoc appeared. His magical talents were unparalleled at the time and is said to be responsible for the creation of many the world's most powerful artifacts. One such artifact is the so-called Amulet of Phrizoc or the Sylvian Amulet. It was worn by the Emperors of the Aizonic Empire, although historians have yet to confirm that fact. The amulet is said to transform the wearer over time, giving him or her incredible powers and longevity. These augments allowed the wearers to dominate over other normal humans and eventually led to a ruling class. Some believe that these transformations allowed the Emperors of the Aizonic Empire to live extraordinarily long lives and pass on the powers to their children. Of course, this is all speculation. Sometime after the collapse of the Aizonic Empire, the Amulet of Phrizoc was lost. Although records document its existence, evidence of its true power remains a mystery. Although there are numerous stories of its path, none of them have ever been validated. As for Phrizoc, his existence is even less documented. Many historians doubt of his existence at all. The legend says that opponents of the Aizonic Empire managed to track Phrizoc to an island far in the ocean. They managed to defeat the wizard, but he could not be destroyed. He was entombed with the strongest magics in his Citadel and abandoned. The location of the island was removed from all maps and was forgotten. Since then, Phrizoc's island has never been found and many doubt it ever existed at all. Unfortunately, there is very little evidence for any of these stories. However, much of what we know about the Aizonic Empire has come from tales and legend which later have been validated, but only by a scrap of evidence. So perhaps these tales have a grain of truth in them..." Quote: Originally written by TM Years -100,000 through -80,000: Vantanas is covered in Elves, which apart from being completely unrecorded, are also considered to be the proto-form of Sylvians. Humans are only barely beginning to evolve. Years -80,000 through -50,000: The northern half of Vantanas where most humans are begins to split. Interbreeding between humans and elves prove quite rapidly that certain genomes will become dominant very quickly, eventually resulting in a new, nearly homogeneous specie that produces its own offspring from both human and elven seed. Around year 60,000, N. Vantanas has split completely from S. Vantanas, forming two seperate continents. (N. Vantanas has yet to be re-discovered, and is also known as TMU, which the B2-betatesters would recognize.) Around year 50,000, genetic diseases and more-dominant Sylvian/Human genes have swallowed up the elven population to the point of extinction. At this point, the average Sylvian is 90-70% human, 10-30% elven. Rakshasi have completed their evolution towards the east, with the Sylvians taking up most of the west. Years 50,000-1,000: Small communities and tribes form. No language, very little evolution. Seismic activity on the half of Vantanas that isn't TMU is close to none. TMU is firmly in its place, wedged between the tremendous Doston and Pralgad/N. Valorim tectonic plates. Year -500: Rakshasi form Tanmaii De (the Rakshasic language- I'm actually working on making it) and Rak De (It means "The people are" in Tanmaii De. Quite literally, its the name of their nation in its primitive form) in -450. Sylvians form Ylondiac, the primitive name of their loose, tribal congregation, in -350. The city of Blackrock is formed, and a crude language is invented. Year -200: Rakshasi are forced into the cavernous universe of Arngoth by the Dragon Shale in -224. Wasazore, Vic Sniper and Ezekiel crash-land on TMU and form a civilization in -217. Wasazore is ousted from leadership in -192, the Great Emmigration follows in -191. Humans on TMU (aka "N. Vantanas", the continent seperated ~60,000) land on Vantanas in -190 and fail to create a civilization. Humans land on Pralgad and Doston in -189, the latter fails. Humans land on Aizo and Valorim in -188, the latter fails. Pralgad and Aizo are in states of relative chaos, with multiple powerful lords claiming territory and fighting amongst themselves. Rebellion in Blackrock breaks out in -178, when the underground organization called the Anti-Solar League commits terrorism in the headquarters of the Solar Order, a prominent religious institution among Sylvians. A ritual is disrupted on a fluke by a seven-year old apprentice of a powerful yet obscure mage. The mage named Balathermo and his apprentice flee the Order, and Vantanas. It is rumored that perhaps others from the Anti-Solar League may have escaped the Order, but this is as of yet unconfirmed. Balathermo manages to escape via boat to Aizo in -177, where his name is slowly turned into Baltimore. His apprentice also made it to Aizo, but he disappeared shortly after the rebellion in Blackrock and didn't make it to Aizo with Baltimore. Nobody knows what happened to him to this date. (A cookie goes to whoever knows the name of Baltimore's former-apprentice.) Baltimore spends the following 32 years trying to unite the factions on Aizo before finally succeeding and crowning himself Emperor.

Naturally, when there is an attempt to reconcile different world views, there will be conflict - it's a law of nature The objective here is to minimalize this conflict, not avoid or postpone it. The later this is cleared up, the bigger the confusion and conflict will be in the end. Note that when I say 'conflict', I mean 'disagreement', not 'flame war'. There's a difference. A conflict doesn't need to be resolved in flames, and I really hope it will not come to that.

I said it before; this is not supposed constraining, it's supposed to be helpful. If you want a scenario that sticks totally to the 'Jeff-developed' part of the world, there is only little room for the scenario, since there is almost no information apart from the immediate present in the games. So designers have to either invent new stuff, or - preferrably I must say, though it's not obligatory - play through a whole lot of scenarios already done to find info apart from that which Jeff made. However, there are some problems: As we can already see, TM and Stareye - two really experienced veterans at Spidweb - have different theories on the founding of the Empire. So this site is only intended as one standard (not the standard) to avoid confusion. Of course, once it's done, I still hope to contact Jeff and ask him if he can check the stuff. But that doesn't mean scenarios have to be conformed to this. If there is no standard like this, eventually every designer is going to have a unique theory and belief on every single thing in Ermarian that no one else agrees with, and while this is certainly a great freedom for the designers, anyone playing the scenarios - and especially newbies who don't know what each designer believes - is going to be hopelessly lost as to how to reconcile these different realities into one world.

Yes, like TM said, of course there is no obligation whatsoever to conform to this history, just like there is no obligation to set a scenario in Ermarian. This is not meant to restrict designers, but aid them by being a means to have a consistent world: There won't be anything in it that a designer couldn't find out by playing all scenarios and asking the veterans, it's just easier to access because it's all on one site.

I agree heartily. Leave elves out of here. They don't fit on a world like this. EDIT: Funny, how the first sentence still fits, though it's too late. I agree that killing off the Empire sounds really nasty to me. Apart from that: I'm technically a newbie here, so I shouldn't complain about anything, but I didn't like that history for some reason. Two things: The splitting of Vantanas into North and South Vantanas - how does this connect to this map ? Is that North or South Vantanas according to this history - or is it even completely obsolete? The second: What about Zion I., founder of the Aizonian Empire, as we had already established IIRC.

Thanks, this should make for an accurate account in the history. Btw, one more question (well several actually ) - if Baltimore was killed in battle on Aizo - during his conquest I presume - then was his beloved on Aizo's instead of the Pralgradian side? And how did the Aizoan empire collapse, if it was completely ordered when Sol came back - was the 'collapse' merely a short time - ie. 100 years - without a ruler? How did the empire survive this without sinking into civil war; was there a steward of some kind? And these 65 years from the time Sol started to unite Pralgrad, to the time when he declared himself emperor over all of Pralgrad - was he a king conquering all the lands to unite them, was he a democratic politician getting all the other parts of Pralgrad through intrigue and other stuff, or did he just ask for it and everyone followed him and accepted his authority without question? ———————————— Zharrad, the site design looks nice, doesn't load too slow , but is there actually any page behind the front one, because the buttons don't do anything yet.

For reference: When did Baltimore travel to Pralgrad? When was his son born? When did Baltimore return to Aizo? When did he die? When did Sol learn of his heritage? When did he start to unite Pralgrad (he would have started before he was able to declare himself emperor)? When did he 're-annex' Aizo, and in what state did he find it- civil war, chaos, an usurper's reign, or what?

Had Baltimore ever been to Pralgrad before, or did this woman ever live in Aizo, or did they only get to know each other after Baltimore had started his invasion to Pragrad? And you said the son was illegitimate and the history book didn't mention his mother; was this just racial prejudice against Pralgradians - or did Baltimore have a wife already? Okay, next guess: Sol I. was born 50 BP, when the Aizoan Empire was already in its decline. Balty returned to Aizo a few years later, before Sol had time to grow up. (Why he didn't take his son and spouse back with him is another matter, which might be explained by him being already married). When the Aizoan Empire collapsed (maybe Balty was murdered in the process - perhaps he could even have been murdered by his wife and her friend upon coming home, sort of like Agamemnon ), Sol was growing up on Pralgrad, in his mother's care. Around 10 BP, he started to unite Pralgrad - I imagine him to have quite a quick mind politically - and by 1 IE, he was able to declare himself emperor over all of Pralgrad. Later, he had little trouble annexing Aizo, through the claim of Baltimore's heritage. Does this look better?

Now will you Mac-users stop taunting us!

That really sucks. Guess us Windows users have to wait another two months. I hope it's no more than that.

Whoops, I didn't see your edit TM - the one Imban quoted. Concerning that piece of history - wonderful, I could make a real story outta that. See, you jut have to keep asking and you'll get a nice answer. Btw, TM, that description was a bit too graphical. What I understand was this: Baltimore went to lead an invasion against Pralgrad, around 100 BP. With only his advisors and his steward - or whoever he left in charge - leading Aizo, the Empire showed signs of decline by 90-85 BP. Balty didn't notice, because first it couldn't be seen from the reports his advisor was sending him, and later because he was otherwise occupied by an affair with a local Pralgradian woman (btw, was that a love affair, or a rape, or whatever?). When his son (Sol I.) was born around 40BP, the Aizoan Empire was in its death throes; and it soon became obvious to Balty that he couldn't return there. So he just basically continued his invasion, until around 10-0, when his son had matured, who was quick to grasp his opportunity for leading an empire, and united the Pralgradians. Is that more or less correct? And how did Balty and Sol think of each other; was Sol I. still 'loyal' to his father, or did he adhere completely to the opposing side (the Pralgradians)?

Yeah, well, that causes problems when you try to make a map. And I really can't understand this about Baltimore's descendants, how did they get to Pralgad? Zharrad, I've just remade part of my map following the tips, and I must say it's looking great already, though I have to start some major stuff anew - But it's good for practice anyway. You can find the new version at my site. BTW, you can check your private messages by clicking on your profile, I've sent you the one with the tips already.

The scenario I'm testing is playing on Doston, and I didn't notice? That's embarrassing to say the least. I'll go replay it again right now, before I'm overridden by feelings of guilt. Edit: How could I have noticed, seeing as it pretty much plays in one outdoor section only?

Wait: So the Aizonian Empire never spanned to Pralgrad - I knew that already. The Pralgradian Empire took a long time to span to Aizo again - at least I guess so. But how did Baltimore's line get to a continent so far away from his empire, probably during his reign, since his reign ended with his death? Were they exiled or something? TM, when you said: Quote: Doston existed well before the first cataclysm. There are scenarios that take place on Doston (I can name at least three) before the collapse of the Empire. , did you then mean the island of Doston? Which scenarios are those, so that I can glean a map of the pre-cataclysmic Doston from them? Looking forward to understanding this, and putting it in writing.

First, it's not the Britannica: That one exists already. It's the Ermariana. Someone said earlier in this thread that Baltimore I. left no heir, sinking the Aizonian Empire in a long civil war which broke it apart eventually. Hundred years afterwards, Sol I. founded the Pralg®adian Empire. If Sol I. was a descendant of Baltimore I., then why didn't an earlier descendant inherit the throne after Baltimore's death, thereby preventing the collaps? Please clear this up. About the site; it's not as if most of that info is staying on there; the reigns are basically just a page where I can practice html tables for the time being. So the Doston depicted on the map is the first Doston, which existed *all* the time throughout Ermarian history? Or is it the second one?

I'm going to mail you what he said - it would, btw, be helpful if you enabled private messages to be sent to you, but no matter, I can also send you an email. Edit: You didn't put your address anywhere, Zharrad. But now that you've enabled PMs, no prob.

Cool design, and the loading time is okay too. But I notice that you've got the text for the maps at the bottom, and the maps to which they refer are not there. They're on the graphic-less site, but not on the new one. Edit: It's a natural law of discussion boards that the last post on a page easily gets ignored. Only read it just now, TM. If Doston is the setting of BoE scenarios, and existed before the cataclysm, it'll of course be included in the site. Hang on, I'm gonna start the map right now - Arti (the guy who made the Photoshop map tutorial) also gave me some tips for improvement after seeing my Vantanas map, and I guess I'll be a lot better with Doston.

That would imply that before the second cataclysm Ermarian had the technology of space travel. I don't think much of that - but that's my opinion. But since you say there weren't any scenarios around then, why not split the world up in the dimension that contains the arena (where its ca. 6100 IE.) and the one that contains most of the BoE scenarios (where it's something between 1500 and 2000 IE.) Since the encyclopædia is going to be for BoE designers, I'd say we break off the history where the last scenario takes place. If people want to make scenarios adhering to the arena timeline, I'm guessing there is enough info on it, if not we could make another site for that.

Actually I did, but I did it in an edit of my post above, so you probably did not notice: It's geocities, just like your site. the link to the site directory is www.geocities.com/arancaytar

Not too long ago, someone (darn, I wish I could find that thread, I searched in the whole board), following a question about a world map, posted a map of Ermarian, and said "This map is highly inaccurate: It was made for the arena, which has endured two major cataclysms and a nuclear apocalypse." (See, I'm good at remembering quotes, but hopeless when it comes to names ). From that, I reasoned that the cataclysm/collapse/apocalypse is confined to the arena, and that the arena and the BoE scenarios follow two different realities ("Different probabilities" if have you read "Mostly Harmless" ). If it's widely accepted in here, I guess we have to enclude it in the site, Zharrad. I still suspect that this idea of cataclysm doesn't agree with my world view - but hey, I guess as a noob I have to accept what the community has come up with already. In the meantime, would someone care to elaborate how these cataclysms came to pass?

Well, seemingly "only Vogel-created matter" seems to not include a lot of things - ranging from the name "Ermarian" to the Aizonian (First) Empire and all stuff. That is why I was disappointed when I was scolded for trying to make up an Aizonian history, but I guess it's just because I haven't been here long. Basically I (I'm not sure who else is still in this) would have to include stuff that is non-Vogel made. And really, the point of this thing is getting an authorized (ie. Jeff-Vogel-Approved), official compendium on the stuff that has been made up by the various designers. Designers keep adding to the world, and to avoid confusion we should have a reference site for checking which islands are currently where, etc. I've even got a name for the thing now: The Encyclopædia Ermariana. And - completely off-topic (or should I say 'on-topic' since this thread was originally for BoA ) healing spells on summoned creatures work in Avernum 3, but only with mass healing. I tried it.