TheKian

3 minutes ago, Triumph said:

Oh, yeah, as for healing... While recognizing the need to be cautious about reasoning from mechanical aspects of the game to game lore, recall that all of the healing magic the PC does is listed on your character screen as a class of shaping. It uses essence. It IS shaping (of a very specialized sort), no question. I would say the very nature of the PC's own healing abilities (as well as various NPC Shaper characters who are mentioned as healing themselves during fights) strongly implies that healing is special category of shaping exempted from the standard Shaper rules against self-shaping. I don't recall any of the games ever addressing the exact limits of medical shaping, however, so I'm doubtful you'll find any authoritative answers to exactly how much one allowed to heal using shaping.

From canon in-game sources, we can be fairly sure that healing magic doesn't actually count as Shaping. The specific example of which I am thinking is the servile keeper (a normal outsider) in Drypeak in Geneforge 2. For bringing back the serviles from the mines, she teaches you cure effects, and mentions specifically that she was taught it. Though Zakary is hardly a great example of a Shaper, he certainly wouldn't have given an ordinary servile keeper permission or training to use any sort of healing magic if it were Shaping.

Medically speaking, although the Shapers could probably Shape new limbs, they would probably be genetically disparate from the person to whom they are supposed to be attached, leading to rejection of the limb by the immune system. Furthermore, human Shaping is explicitly illegal (Source: Um... somewhere in one of the games), so creating human limbs with Shaping would probably be as well.

Also, if you'd like to learn about servant minds, then, to quote Slarty,

"Per usual, Triumph said it better."

1 hour ago, Gameman112358 said:

2. You've got some great ideas for weapons that didn't quite occur to me before. Dazing thorns, terror-inflicting swords, etc. And wands with unlimited uses! That's pretty great for those classes that are poor in magic.

 

See, the daze/terror attacks work well in Geneforge 4 because, even fairly late into the game, enemies aren't particularly strong. However, in Geneforge 5, enemies get tough super fast. That's why your slowing/cursing batons work much better in G5.

15 minutes ago, alhoon said:

Yeah, initiative frankly doesn't concern me. I don't consider it crucial. Sure, it's nice, but not a dealmaker.

Do Rots still cause acid (or poison, I forget; very rarely used them) on hit? Cause if they do and they deal a lot of damage with physicals, I may go for them. The Drakon you present still seems underwhelming.

 

But frankly, I'll probably go for Gazers cause I like them and Rots because they add variety to my attack routine; little to do with damage and actual power.

I am playing on easy; sure, not strategically and avoiding parts I find non-enjoyable, but still I believe I can do everything with 1 gazer, 1 more tier 4 and 4 high level Vlish.

Rotdhizons and rotghroths both do acid damage, but they do about the same amount of damage. I just tested a rotdhizon, rotghroth, and drakon against each other with the same testing basis as my previous post. The rotghroth did an average of about 150 damage. The rotdhizon did an average of about 160 damage. The drakon did an average of 120 damage.

The Drakon, however, has a higher chance to hit twice, and fires searing orbs as a ranged attack. It also has a good deal more health than rotghroths in addition to its superior initiative. It's a solid creation. It doesn't do as much damage as the other creations, but its greater variability makes it fairly useful. It mostly depends on what you want: general abilities or powerful specific creations.

Gazers are excellent, but they run out of magic pretty fast in large battles. Maybe 6-8 shots without regenerating back up to full energy?

Also, @Queenforge,

The bonuses from Shaping skill seem to have diminishing returns that are pretty severe (+16 creation levels for 30 Shaping skill). I THINK that it only starts after the 10 level soft cap, but I'm not sure. Also, keep in mind, Drakons have 8 quick action, but Gazers have none, and luck seems to make fairly little difference. Due to the higher base level of Drakons, you'd have to have a pretty great level differential (if you assume that quick action has the same effect as dexterity, that's 4 levels to overcome the dexterity differential, and then 16 more for the quick action differential - or a 20 level higher Gazer!)

Edit: Rotghroth'd be fairly realistic, though. +8 level difference, assuming, again, that quick action has the same effect as dexterity. Also, investing points into dexterity makes the rotghroth more expensive than a Drakon after only 2 points invested.

Shaper Lore:

The Shapers are a powerful sect of wizards which uses magic to create life, with the aid of a magical biological slurry called 'essence'. The Shapers create an established creation form and bombard it with different kinds of magical energy (read: radiation) that causes them to mutate. If a specific mutation is helpful, the Shapers record how they did it and continue improving the creation further. Essentially, they perform magical genetic engineering. The Shapers, running the government, forbid anyone else from learning how to Shape, on the penalty of death. Shaper society is essentially divided into three different roles:

Shapers, the eponymous group of the sect, are researchers. They are exceptionally skilled at the creation of life, and are usually also highly skilled magicians. If they aren't dedicated creation researchers, slaving away to develop new strains of creations, they typically administer a town or travel about, aiding the poor civilians. As one can expect from the rebellion, the last of these possibilities wasn't too prevalent.

Guardians are warriors and leaders. Typically, they act as generals and captains, and may be used as leaders of fortifications in particularly important areas: for example, Guardian Makar in Kratoa-Kel, one of the two primary passes between northwest and southwest Terrestia. Though they are often skilled at Shaping, their primary skills lie in their combat prowess; a combination of both allows a single Guardian to act as a one-man army.

Agents are the assassins and 'diplomats' of the Shaper council. If there is a problem the Shaper council wants immediately resolved, an Agent is typically dispatched. Agents are most highly skilled in combat, primarily magic. They, being important stealth assets, tend to use few or no creations, and make targeted strikes against enemies, instead of going into all-out war as a Guardian or even a Shaper may. Their less exciting duties include checking up on colonies around Terrestia to make sure that nothing illegal is going on.

The Sholai:

In the original Geneforge, a Shaper apprentice finds that a people from a distant land have landed on a barred Shaper research facility. These people were the Sholai, brave, seafaring Russians (or something like that). They come from across the eastern sea, one that the Shapers typically regarded as being impassible. Though they do have magical skills of their own, they had not heard of Shaping prior to landing on Sucia Island. Not much is known about their society, but it is believed by some that they have an empire which could rival the Shapers' own in size, given that the Sholai do, indeed, have magic as well. Their technology is similar to that of the outsiders, with the exception of a complete lack of Shaped tools - living tools, batons, and the like. They have fairly advanced ships, probably similar to those of the Renaissance era in Europe, and have and otherwise similar technological level to real life.

The recipes work in the same manner as in your mod. You must locate them in-game to actually use them. I have made sure that you can obtain all recipes unless you do something entirely stupid (like attacking Uchitelle, for example), and that you can craft items regardless of faction. You may need to be slightly pro-Shaper or pro-rebel to actually craft them, however (otherwise neither side will help you), so total fence-sitting that ends up with you staying around 100 reputation will block you off from higher-level crafting unless you have really high leadership.

*ahem*

So I did serious, scientific study of the tier 4 creations, Slarty...

YOU'LL NEVER BELIEVE WHAT HAPPENED NEXT

Sorry, I couldn't resist being Buzzfeed for a moment.

The player:
Level 23 Shaper
7 in all Shaping stats
3 in all creation skills (4 in Create Fyora, but that's irrelevant)
30 intelligence

Data on creations. The amount in parentheses is from invested skill points. The rest is the default level.

Edit: All freshly created, mind. These are the pure, raw, base creations with the given player stats.

 =TYPE=        =LEVEL=    =STR=    =DEX=    =INT=    =END=    =HEALTH=

Ur-Drakon        40                20          20       20 (22)      20              710
Drakon             36                18          18       18 (20)      18              633
Rotdhizon        38                 19         19       19 (21)      19              770
Rotghroth         34                17         17       17 (19)      17              547
Eyebeast         38                 19         19       19 (21)      19              670
Gazer              34                 17         17       17 (21)      17              477

The stats given in the definitions file apparently do not actually come into play here. All stats correspond to the 1/2 level rule. The health results are slightly surprising: Drakon beats rotghroth, but the rotdhizon beats the Ur-Drakon. Eyebeast and Gazer, of course, are the worst off in regards to health. You will note that the Drakon and Ur-Drakon have 2 extra levels when they are created. This gives the Drakon only one less dexterity than the rotdhizon. I have tested all the tier 4 creations against each other, 'all other factors the same', and this is the result:

Initiative order: Ur-Drakon, Drakon, Rotdhizon, Rotghroth, Eyebeast, Gazer

Summary: I was correct. The Drakon beats all other creations for initiative except the Ur-Drakon. The order also, interestingly, follows a pattern of upgraded-normal and fire-melee-magic creations. The Drakon, of course, costs more essence than the other creations, but it is definitely worth having one in your party to soak up damage by attacking immediately. Especially since you're a puny Shaper, alhoon.

Greetings, my fine fellows. Today I have a glorious modification to Geneforge 4 for you all, one that shall make using characters of any class far more enjoyable/doable.

The Geneforge 4 Artifact Weapons mod!

This mod adds a total of 16 brand new, powerful craftable(ish) weapons. You will obtain two of the basic weapons from this mod (perfected baton, supercharged wand) as a guaranteed result from certain quests: the former from completing the Shaila quest (received from Greta), and the latter from the caravan quest (either from Pirik if you helped it, or from Alwan if you destroyed it). To craft the more powerful versions of these weapons, you will need to find their recipes, scattered around the first three chapters of Geneforge 4. Once you have the materials needed and have discovered the recipe, you must go to a sufficiently skilled crafter with whom you are aligned (see list below) to create the items.

I have tested it to make sure it works, but I have not extensively tested it. Please inform me of any problems in it.

Installation:

Weapons:

Recipes:

Crafters:

Download.

4 hours ago, Queenforge said:

What I meant to say was "I should not be making proclamations about details I don't have access to on this machine, and I am about to receive my comeuppance."  

 

I don't understand what you're saying about "experimentally" -- you can see the actual Dexterity (and level) of any creations you make; the only hidden stats relevant to initiative are, apparently, QA and Luck, and those are laid out very clearly.  The stat bonuses for the 4 primary stats are added to the value the creation has based on its level (and its base level is also given in the defs file).

 

According to Nim's observations, an extra 21 points of Dex should be way more than enough to offset 2 points of QA.

 

Also, I assume you are running tests with both party orders (Drakon first; Rot first) since party order is definitely the tiebreaker for initiative.

 

Edit: Also, I assume you are testing freshly made creations with equal skill in (1) each X Shaping ability, and (2) each Create X ability?

For the purposes of controlled testing without having to mess with my G2 editor, my relevant data comes from Gazak-Uss enemy NPCs (on torment, but I don't think it makes much of a difference anyway). Ur-Drakons have the highest initiative, followed by Drakons, then by rotghroths (there weren't enough rotdhizons to compare them sufficiently, unfortunately), followed by eyebeasts.

Also, for reference, my Drakon, at every point since its creation, had higher initiative than everything else I encountered (barring Ur-Drakons).

I suppose a proper scientific test may be in order, though.

Experimentally, (for example, in Gazak-Uss, or with my own creations), the drakon always attacks first (again, regardless of whether it is my creation or an enemy), followed by the rothgroth and then gazer.

I don't know about absurd strength for rotghroths, but they do hit ridiculously hard (~240 per swing, which is a lot in G2).

Also, Slarty, from the Geneforge 2 scenario file...

Gazers: //cr_statistic 1 = 20;     cr_statistic 2 = 25;     cr_statistic 7 = 3;     cr_statistic 22 = 10; (+25 int, +3 parry, +10 luck, other stats commented out)

Drakons: //cr_statistic 0 = 22;     //cr_statistic 2 = 25;     cr_statistic 6 = 8;     cr_statistic 7 = 3;     //cr_statistic 22 = 10;  (+8 quick action, +3 parry, other stats commented out)
Rotghroths: cr_statistic 0 = 22;     cr_statistic 1 = 22;     cr_statistic 6 = 6;     cr_statistic 7 = 3; (+22 str, +22 dex, +6 quick action, +3 parry, other stats commented out)

It's obvious immediately that the Drakon has superior quick action to the rotghroth. However, the rotghroth also happens to have an insane level of base dexterity. The question here is (also, luck isn't likely to have as significant an impact on initiative as quick action) what exactly is the base dexterity of the Drakon. It would seem to theoretically be 1, since it imports the base creature. However, since, experimentally, the drakon does have superior initiative to the rotghroth, its base dexterity must be fairly close.

19 hours ago, Lilith said:

 

Enough room means enough empty, unobstructed space: no creations, no walls, nothing that your characters can't stand on.

I'm guessing that the problem here is that, with a smaller party, you can get into the zone, but with a full party or a couple fewer, it decides there's too little room.

1 hour ago, alhoon said:

In Drypeak mines? I don't remember that, except veeery foggily.

Then why have a servile act as a servant mind? Strange.

Servant minds are bred specifically for extreme loyalty to Shapers, remember?

...You should have total control over your Vlish and so not have problems. If you do not have 2 intelligence invested in each Vlish, DO IT. Having no essence left over for spells is preferable to not being able to control your creations when they actually matter.

Also, about Phariton:

The only creatures in Geneforge 2 that seemed to have much of anything in the way of resistances were golems, and those seemed to have a single overall resistance to every damage type.

Now, in regards to drakons... they aren't particularly good, but...

-They have the highest health of tier 4 creations, if I recall correctly

-They have the highest initiative of the tier 4 creation types

-Their ranged attack is a bit weak on damage, but is searing orbs, and so can hit multiple enemies

-They can parry like all other tier 4 creations

-They do huge amounts of melee damage (~170) and have a good chance to get a second swing. Though rothgroths have more melee damage, and gazers have more ranged damage, the drakon is probably the best overall utility creation.

If you have enough essence, I recommend at least one drakon and gazer. Since you're not going to be a loyalist, I think that you can safely use all the canisters you need, so you could probably also get rotdhizons and the like.

7 hours ago, alhoon said:

Is this thread spoiler-free \ spoiler-light?

Before reading anything from what I assume would be a nice collection of hints, I would like to know.

There are references to specific parts of the games, but those are either early on or irrelevant to the story.

The only potential spoiler is for the zone immediately before the secret tunnel in Geneforge 2. So, you know, nothing that isn't super early on.

2 minutes ago, Randomizer said:

Jeff never fixed some game exploits since they were rarely discussed.

 

You left off the pyroroamer assassination method of creating them and then for a safe distance take back your essence so they explode. Useful for killing NPCs to loot the area.

Unfortunately, that's a very conditional method of combat. You kind of need an essence pool or oodles of essence pods to reasonably do that. Takes about 18 essence to make a controllable pyroroamer, I believe, and each of them is only going to do about, say, 40 damage total (10-20 explosion damage, in my experience, and probably a single hit before getting killed in a massive chain reaction)? However, it could be useful in some areas. I'll add it to the list.

Indeed. However, that's not always the case.

For example, recently, I was replaying Geneforge 5 to test Alhoon's warrior mod. In the foundry core, I calmed the turrets with my leadership abilities and then (they were friendly) I proceeded to attack them one at a time. Once, I failed to kill one within my turn, and they all turned hostile. However, they didn't when I one-shot them (or, at least, killed them before the other turrets' turns). Similar 'everything becomes hostile' events can also occur with neutral creatures as well.

Basically, you just need to quicksave before murdering stuff to make sure that you don't ruin everything by doing so.

The Drakon is called 'Rhakkus', not 'Rakkus'. And, let me assure you, he is MOST DEFINITELY a different one from the one in Geneforge 5.

Something that really is a callback to Geneforge 2 in G5 is Gazaki-Uss. In Geneforge 2, there is a creation disposal ground called 'Gazak-Uss', and we learn from Alwan that 'Gazaki' means 'younger Gazak'.

Also, the Drakons are specifically established to be, in multiple parts in multiple games, reShaped Drayks. However, I do not believe that either Rhakkus or Easss were originally Drakys - the only ones we know to be Drayks are ones that have already been established in canon - Syros and Akkat, from Sucia Island in Geneforge 1.

Also, as Slarty said, you keep referring to a canon that is not canon if you help the Takers or the Awakened or the Barzites. Do NOT join a faction because 'oh, they'll survive the Shaper purge'. There will not BE a Shaper purge because you joined their faction. Again, as I said, if you really like the Awakened, you should join them. The Takers are just as bad as the Drakons in Geneforge 5. Although I have not completed the game (yet) as Barzites or Takers, I am fairly certain that every rebellious faction in the Drypeaks 'wins' (in terms of 'not being wiped out') if you help them. Remember, the Shaper council wouldn't even have destroyed everything in the Drypeaks if the Geneforge 2 player character did not go back to the council and tell them about everything after having ruined every single hostile faction already.

Finally, don't assume that Serviles actually have the same kind of developmental process as humans. Also keep in mind that, back in ye olden days, twelve was an expected, acceptable age for marriage (irrelevant to what we think of it now...) for humans. Don't assume that Serviles must have the same generation length as humans (I mean, sure, they're probably actually heavily Shaped human descendants, but...).

Sooo... here's my question. Why can't you play the mod as a servile? After all, a servile warrior is likely to be just as competent as a warrior or Guardian PC at fighty stuff, and would benefit especially from being able to get proper help in the form of rebel soldiers.

Hello, all. I'm sure that some of you have, at some point, been frustrated by particularly obnoxious parts of Geneforge (cough podlings cough), whether you're playing the original or Geneforge 5. Keeping that in mind, I have some valuable tips and tricks to help you bamboozle your way to Geneforging success.
 

1. Bypassing mines and pylons and just about everything else.

2. Stealth (the right way).

3. Lava pads.

4. Kleptomania (and creation stealing in Geneforge 3).

5. Powergaming (Barzahl 2.0)

6. Combating Hostile Forces or "Vlishforge 3"

Try altering your monitor settings. I've never had that problem, so I'm guessing it's something specific to your computer. Either that, or some update for DirectX messed it up, but that seems unlikely.

I'm personally of the opinion that the Shapers would think "Hmm. Is it worse to have serviles escape, or to let them be put in Nazhaper concentration camps? Eh, who cares, let that one wacko kleptomaniac who keeps doing stuff for us despite being a rebel deal with them."

Sorry, nobody plays Geneforge 4 anymore.

I kid. I'd like to know whether you changed the... shall we say... explosive temper of the tier 2 roamer. Also, correct me if I am wrong, but is it not impossible to alter the amount of essence a creation costs? It's possible that it will end up being a somewhat overpowered creation for its essence cost.

On a side note, you may want to make sure that you didn't mess up NPC pyroamers with this. I'm just saying, trying to protect the caravan at the end of chapter 1 from a horde of guardian roamers will be slightly difficult.

9 hours ago, alhoon said:

 

Kian: Only 3 geneforges are mentioned in canon (which makes me wonder... no Geneforge in Geneforge 2?  But the Takers are promising me awesome power to dwarf the Barzites! Are they lying? (Cause Barzites mass produce canisters so if it's just canisters it's the same or less...) And if yes, why is half the gf2 stepped in deceit?

 

As I said, prior to Geneforge 4, the rebels directly performed reShaping. In the case of Geneforge 2 (slight spoilers), there are Shaping platforms where the head researcher for a sect directly reShapes you to become extremely powerful (lets you learn the most powerful spells etc.). In Geneforge 2 and 3, there are Geneforges, but they can only be used by Drakons (with hilarious results when you try to use them).

Also, just about Barzahl... I mean, I think the game mentioned that the Guardian statues in front of the Radiant College are supposed to be of Barzahl. Obviously he's just playing Shaper. Most people aren't entirely deceitful in G2.

Geneforge 3: Enter the crazy psychopath.

Sometime around the events of Geneforge 2, a particularly psychopathic and insane apprentice wiped out huge groups of innocent serviles. And there was also Litalia, but you were way worse.

Litalia was a Shaper apprentice sent to destroy rogue serviles. The laxity of the Shapers in the settlement had allowed the serviles to grow rebellious, and Litalia went to burn them to ashes and shaped a bunch of new serviles to replace them. Being a pathological liar, she later claimed she was an important figure in the events of the Drypeaks. She wasn't. Having done her first annihilation of rogues (the first one is always the hardest), she went mad from regret, attacked her Shaper handler, and ran off. Eventually, she met Ghaldring, the final creation of Easss, who swayed her to his side to join his rebellion. From there on, this already psychopathic Shaper apprentice became a canister addict and eventually was so insanely powerful that she was ready to go and attack the Shapers. Location? Greenwood Academy, Ashen Isles.

A Shaper apprentice woke up to the sound of the entire academy shaking around him. Not natural tremors; the academy was under attack. After fighting his way to the exit of the academy, the apprentice was immediately KO'd (in effect) by Litalia, who then took a minute to brag and tells him 'toodleloo'. Following this, the apprentice cleared out Greenwood Island of the rogues left behind by Litalia, learning of the abominations of Shaping created by her and her allies. Having nothing left to do, the apprentice moved on to other islands. Accompanying the Shaper were two other apprentices: Alwan, a young, loyal Guardian badly lacking self-confidence, and Greta, a former Agent apprentice who was kicked out for her softness toward creations. The Shaper apprentice, leading the two, eventually found himself sympathizing with the rebels, and eventually found himself blatantly assisting them, repairing a warped creator left behind on the capital of the Ashen Isles by Litalia. The young Shaper, finally abandoned in disgust by Alwan for having turned on the Shapers, fought his way to the Isle of Spears, where the Drakons were preparing yet another Geneforge to give themselves ridiculous amounts of power. The Shaper apprentice pledged himself to the rebels, and returned to Dhonal's Island to kill Lord Rahul, securing victory for the rebels. As the flames of war swept across Terrestia, the young Shaper apprentice, possessed now of awesome power, reShaped by the Drakons into a being of true glory, just fell out of the world. Although, of course, there's always Shaper Monarch... in Geneforge 4.

TO BE CONTINUED MORE