Masked Man of Inscrutability

What is happening to me? I came to the realization this afternoon that I DID get my money's worth from Avernum 4. No, I still think the game is boring and I doubt I'll ever play it again, but for a mere $25 I now have the clear conscious to bash this game forever on the company’s own board, AND to get self-righteous and indignant. My god! Its like every trip to the Spiderweb boards are now Christmas! Am I becoming a crotchety old timer now? Do I now have to begin all my posts with some variation of "In my day, we played Alcritas' scenarios using two rusty spoons and some dirt, and we liked it better that way!” ? Or “Jeff's best work was the scenario design utility he made with silly putty and a crayon in 1st grade. By God the community pushed that putty to its limit!"? Or will I be one of those only sort-of old timers who says "Yes, the putty was brilliant, but I still prefer the more modern interface of Blades of Lite Brite."? I'm going to celebrate my newfound old-timer-ness by reinstalling Blades of Exile and actually trying a scenario. Something I have never done before! All this fun for only $25 dollars! Man do I feel good! Z

Quote: Originally written by AncalagonTheBlack: A couple things. First, I often hear people extolling "non-linear storylines" as a good thing. I disagree. Most people agree that A2 and Neth were his best works; these are also his most linear plotlines and the fewest possible endings. A very good story needs plot twists and surprises; these are hard to do if it is non-linear. Not to quibble too much, but non-linear, as I understand it, means the player is left to decide for herself how to go about achieving the goals of the game. You seem to define it as essentially having no story or overall goal. The RPGs I like best tend to be non-linear (my definition). Take Baldur's Gate. Yes, there is a big bad guy you need to kill to win the game, but the player spends the bulk the game running around doing more or less what she damn well pleases. A2 is like that after you bring down the barriers. Yes, you have three goals to accomplish, but most of the rest of the game is completely optional. The Geneforge games are also very non-linear. Linear, as I define it, refers to games that force the player to complete one area or task after another in sequence. Icewind Dale is like that - you exterminate one dungeon after another, with no real option as to what to do next. These games CAN be good, but they really suck if the story isn't engaging or the characters are boring or the dungeon crawling is a chore. Icewind Dale (and, I would argue, A4) suffers from these three defects. I do agree with you that a good story is hard to tell while giving the player lots of freedom. The best RPGs actually seem to combine both elements. Like the first part of Baldur’s Gate 2, which sets the stage and is able to do so because it is so linear, but then gives the player lots of time to run around exploring on her own before forcing them back into a more linear mode as the climax approaches. Z

Quote: Originally written by 1 v. One: Quote: Originally written by Spidweb: And sometimes the customer is a paranoid schizophrenic who thinks that my game is spying on him. (Yes. It happened.) Out of curiosity, what game did s/he think was doing the spying? And was it anything particular about the game ("Adze-Haakai is really a spycam!")? Wow! I missed the significance of that statement! It should be obvious that it could only be Galactic Core. His implants may have been malfunctioning. Do not worry; needle/ferrets and Ben have been dispatched to deal with this... situation. Z

Quote: Originally written by I Would Have Been Your Daddy: Quote: Originally written by Zorro: Spiderweb Software, a shareware development house best known for its three franchises of Avernum, Geneforge and Galactic Core, Stop right there. Do not, my friend, completely ignore the entire Exile series (including Blades), in favor of Galactic Core. Exiles 1-3 are huge, immersive RPGs. Blades of Exile is several hundred huge, immersive RPGs. While I don't agree with the rest of the boards that the mere mention of "Galactic Core" and "good" in the same sentence is a felony, it's really not comparable to Exile. Exile, for one, has a story. You, dear friend, need to have your implants checked. Or at the very least, read the following to better understand why Galactic Core was flourishing before Jeff was even born. The Cult Codex

Quote: Originally written by Spidweb: "The customer is always right." I profoundly disagree with this statement, which is why I always say, "You can't win an argument with a customer," instead. <..snip...> Sometimes people don't understand how personally I take their critiques. No matter how many people like Avernum 4, the number of people who didn't like the new direction makes me genuinely unhappy. But what can you do? Looking back, there are some small things I would have changed, but, in Avernum 4, I feel I wrote the game I had to. Of course, I'd be a lot more angsty about Avernum 4 if I wasn't selling a lot of it. :-) - Jeff Vogel Well Jeff, what can I say? I'm a customer who is probably wrong at least 9/10ths of the time. I'm also a customer who has purchased E1-E3, BoE, A1-A4, BoA, G1-3 and Galactic Core, so by most normal definitions, I'm a good customer. I've given you my business, reported bugs and even convinced at least two people I know to purchase your games. So fine, you don't have a sanguine attitude toward those of us unhappy with aspects of A4. We're not criticizing the game because we want you to feel bad. We're criticizing the game because it does not live up to your potential. You're never going to beat the big development houses on graphics or by creating an action RPG. So why try? Why not stick to those things you do best? Your talents flourish when you do a game that has a strong, epic story line, usually with some nice moral ambiguity thrown in, and non-linear gameplay. A4, as I've mentioned before on these forums, reminds me of Icewind Dale. The Infinity Engine was best used to tell an epic story (Like Baldur's Gate) with fun combat and action, and not combat after combat after combat along a conveyer belt of increasingly big enemies. Many around here describe your best games as Exile/Avernum 2 (epic quest - check. Non-linear gameplay - check) or a small rebellion or Nethergate. I personally think Geneforge 1 and 2 are your best works. I hope Geneforge 4 and Avernum 5 live up to expectations in terms of engaging stories you created. But I'm less optimistic now than I was before A4. And I’m a LOT less optimistic when you come on these boards and tell us that legions of people love your new action RPG and compare those of us who don’t like it to crazy luddites who hate all change and will never be happy anyway. Z

Quote: Originally written by Thuryl: Seriously, dude, the whole idea behind "try before you buy" is that if you try it and don't like it, you don't buy. Are you just buying new games out of fear that you'll spend all your disposable income on a drug binge if you don't pre-empt that by wasting all your money on games you don't particularly like? Are you telling me you're able to control yourself when skribbane is available? Actually, I found the demo area to be lackluster, but thought it would get better after the shareware barrier. I was wrong. Also, I've made it a habit of buying Jeff's games because they are silly cheap and some of them are really good. So (to mix my metaphors) I chalk up the lemons as donations to the Vogel foundation and hope for a better harvest next spring. Z

I actually find the review to be a little generous. If I were judging this game, I would probably give it a 5 out of 10. There is nothing horrible about the game, but there isn't much that is fun either. As I've mentioned before, I bought the damn thing. That probably says more about me than about the game. Anyway, here is the Avernum 4 review I would write: --- Review of Avernum 4. Spiderweb Software, a shareware development house best known for its three franchises of Avernum, Geneforge and Galactic Core, has released its 5th game in the Avernum series - Avernum 4 (the forth actually being "Blades of Avernum", a scenario editor best known for its difficulty of use, especially when compared to its predecessor, Blades of Exile). The stories of the Avernum franchise follow the rise of an underground nation of exiles, called the Kingdom of Avernum. The games track the nation's early struggles for survival in a hostile environment, its subsequent war with the surface empire, and finally its return to the surface. In this fifth chapter, the Kingdom of Avernum is once again threatened by enemies, and your group of adventures must find these enemies and kill them. The first Avernum, released in 1998(?), sported a retro RPG feel and graphics about 5 years out of date. The dated graphics did not detract from its excellent game play and sheer "fun" factor. Unfortunately, the basic game engine and graphics stayed the same in subsequent releases - including the 2003 Blades of Avernum. By that time, the graphics and engine had lost a lot of their retro charm and felt tired and clunky. PC Gamer described Blades as "rehashed" and gave it a mediocre score, something with which I agree, Avernum 4, on the other hand, boasts an entirely new engine, borrowing extensively from Spiderweb's Geneforge series, with updated graphics, a seamless world (in previous Avernum games, the world was divided into "outdoor" sections and "towns") and many under-the-hood improvements. Are the new improvement enough to revive the stagnant franchise? Sadly, the answer appears to be "no". While many of the improvements do allow for less tedious game play (such as not having to worry about arrows and a far more friendly "death" system), the story feels hackneyed, the characters are uninspired and the game is unengaging. While Avernum 4 does an admirable job of eliminating common retro RPG annoyances (such as running into walls looking for secret doors), it does not deliver enough action to make up for the loss of puzzles. Basically, we're left with a turn-based Diablo. In the end, Avernum 4 falls between two RPG molds - its combat is too slow-paced to be an action RPG, and its characters, dialogue and general feel isn't engaging enough to be a story-driven RPG. This results in an experience that is unsatisfying for fans of either genre. While not totally without merit, Spiderweb Software's latest offering will do little to revive the stagnant Avernum franchise. This is especially sad when you consider the vibrancy of Galactic Core. We expect better. Z

Why do Spiderweb topics inevitably degenerate into fights over the epistemic status of "Burn in Hell"? I first learned about Avernum in 2000 I believe. I read a review of Nethergate which sounded interesting, and I went to Spiderweb's website to download the demo. While I was there, I also downloaded the demos for Avernum 1 and Avernum 2. I tried the Nethergate demo and loved it, so I went back to Spiderweb and registered it. While I was registering it, there was a sale of some kind, so I also bought the Exile trilogy CD and Blades of Exile without having tried them. When they arrived, I loaded the Exile I game and suddenly had the horrid realization that I'd played this game before. And hated it just as much before. Back in 1994 as a freshman college student with a brand spankin' new Quadra 605, I tried out Exile. And hated it. The interface was crude. The graphics (the old ones) really sucked. The "guess-a-word" chat system annoyed the hell out of me. I didn't even make it as far as asking for supplies from Tor before I quit and threw the offending digital turd down the virtual toilet. Words cannot express how pissed off I was, 6 years later, for having just bought not 1, but 4 games I couldn't stand. However, Nethergate rocked! I loved it. So much so that I decided to try the Avernum demos I'd downloaded and found they corrected all of the things that annoyed me about the Exile series. I duly bought Avernum 1 and 2. I actually liked Avernum 1 and 2 about the same amount. I think Avernum 2 starts much better than 1, but Avernum 1 seemed to drag less toward the end. I bought Avernum 3 but never got into it. I got as far as killing the slime machine and then stopped and have never turned back. I bought Blades of Avernum and never got into it either. I don't know about the quality of the included scenarios except for VotDT, because that is the only one I ever played (I found it dull). I tried a couple of user-created scenarios, and found them okay, but nothing super interesting. I bought Avernum 4 and the less said about it, the better... To paraphrase Kel, it ain't no Galactic Core. Looking back at my experiences with Avernum, maybe I shouldn't buy Avernum 5. But I probably will. Do I ever learn from my mistakes? Z

Quote: Originally written by Kelandon: You heard it here first: A4 is worse than Galactic Core. Kel - you've said a lot of silly things in your time on these boards. Your reputation as a cross between a mental hospital escapee and a rabid wolverine has led me to think that you're best left alone even at Cult ice cream socials. But now you've dared compare Avernum 4 to Galactice Core? Words cannot express a greater insult than "A4 is worse than Galactic Core," except the words "Avernum 4 is better than Galactic Core". Those words stand at a kind of insult nirvana. Are you not worried about the needle/ferrets? Are you totally unconcerned about the highly probable fact that Richard White is YOUR FATHER? Oddly, he could be your mother as well. And, to risk killing a fluffy kitty, Richard White is TM's Big Daddy. May Richard White have mercy on our "Lost Souls". Z

Quote: Originally written by spy-there: I didn't like the demo and didn't buy it. Jeffs advice was fair and wise Unfortunately for me, I DID buy it, and lost interest shortly after the demo area. Mind you, I'm a paying Spiderweb customer who has purchased Exile, Exile 2, Exile 3, BoE, Nethergate, Avernum 1, Avernum 2, Avernum 3, BoA, Geneforge 1, Geneforge 2, Geneforge 3, Avernum 4 and (I kid you not) Galactic Core. I'm probably pretty damn close to the best customer Spiderweb has. And I didn't like Avernum 4. It is just dull. I stopped playing after clearing out the second bandit lair and have never even had the slightest urge to play it again. A couple of weeks ago, I fired it up thinking that maybe this time would be different. It wasn't. It was just as dull and monotonous as ever. I think my problem with the game is that I look at RPGs as a kind of interactive novel. I'm not interested in collecting all kinds of crap, or challenging myself to beat the toughest encounters with a 1st level singleton. Powergaming does absolutely nothing for me. Avernum 4 seems best suited for the powergaming crowd among Spiderweb's fans. They exist, but I'm not one of them. Then again, Jeff's games are ridiculously cheap, and so buying them is always a low risk proposition. Z

I read one of Jeff's articles on Irony Central in which he talks about common RPGs, and mentions that you know the evil guys because they're different from you - and usually at is enough. He clearly thinks this crude standard for violence is inappropriate. I have to say, I had to stop playing Geneforge 3 recently. I was playing a Shaper, and really following my conscience (trying VERY hard to answer all the questions as I would myself), and I began to have regrets for my own Creations. I know this sounds totally weird, but I stopped being okay with creating sentient creations which then often were sent into suicidal missions so I could get some essence pods or something equally trivial. Has anyone else had that kind of unease? Z

Interesting point, but I think it is actually more realistic that the more extreme elements of each faction are entrenching. Usually, the liberalization of ideas occurs during a peaceful time when disagreements can be explored with little fear of violent consequences. During times of war, a line in the sand tends to get drawn - you're either with us or against us. The world of Geneforge is now literally at war - and serviles and shapers have to choose their sides and be very clear about where their loyalties lie. Remember, the Takers always seemed to hate the Awakened as much (if not more) than the Obeyers. This was because if they, fundamentally, believed that the Takers were correct to be pissed at being abandoned to die by the Shapers, then they should agree with their views. I'm not sure who said that truth is a war's first casualty - perhaps rational inquiry and agreement to disagree and the second and third casualties Z

Hi Drakefyre: Where did you get that quote? I assume it is Jeff's. Z

I finished the game as a Loyalist Shaper, and you do indeed get the key to the docks from K. Here's how: (1) When you first encounter K in his tower, he tells you to check out Agatha's mansion. (2) Commit some light-hearted burglary of Agatha's masion - make sure you read her journal! (3) Go back to K and tell him what the journal said. (4) K tells you to go rescue Agatha and the imprisoned Shapers. (5) Rescue the Shapers. (6) Return to K and tell him of your success - he then tells you that you need to go to the Spear Isle and gives you the dock key. All done!

I've purchased Geneforge 3 and am having a blast! It feels more polished than G2. It includes a lot more unique enemies, and some NPCs that can tag along, often inserting themselves in conversations. They seem more engaged that NPCs from Baldur's Gate, but less so than Baldur's Gate 2. My only real complaint is that I'm not a big fan of the new shaper avatar. I think I liked the old one better. As to whether it is worth the wait - that's a very hard question to answer. I think it was, but others will surely disagree. The person above who mentioned that if you liked G2, than you'll really like this one, is right. I also think that the factions seem to be more brutal, all of them. None of them are really well-meaning - they're all power hungry and taking an "any means necessary" approach. Don't expect to get a lot of warm fuzzy feelings from this game. In all likelihood, you'll genuinely despise aspects of the faction you've joined. Z

I'm also a rather big Nethergate fan. I found it the best of Spiderweb's games, particularly playing as the Romans. I enjoy the challenge of playing a party of strong warriors with very little magic to back them up - it makes your tactics very important, particularly against the powerful enemies at the end of the game. I'm one of those people that wishes Jeff would revisit the world of Nethergate. Of course, it seems really unlikely - Jeff seems to have "learned" that he should stick to more mainstream RPGs. But I don't think this lesson is really true. The "Geneforge" series, from what I gather, are SW's best selling titles and they certainly aren't your typical RPGs. I think the reason Nethergate didn't sell so well is the same reason planescape didn't sell so well: it demanded that the player read too much text. Most casual players will be turned off. They play to escape or have some mindless fun for a couple of hours. The Geneforge games are successful because they suck you in. For as great as Nethergate is, it takes a while to get sucked in. You run around town talking to a bunch of people before you actually do anything. Of course, I could be completely wrong. Who knows? Its just an unqualified opinion. Z

I would also be very interested in your maps. But please (I don't mean this as a flame) run a spell checker if you include text on a map. It is obvious you're a very fast typer, and hence, make several typing mistakes. Nothing wrong with that, but it does make your first draft rough and difficult to read (nothing a good spell checker and a revision couldn't fix!). Z

Please excuse me for my ignorance, but: Is it really such a big deal with Jeff releases an Avernum (or, perhaps, in the future, a Geneforge) game after he has released an editor? I know people claim they're part of a community that has created its own history, but in a certain sense, so what? Can't they just enjoy the new game as if it were simply a new scenario? Surely many scenarios have been built with information that conflicts with other scenarios - but if they're well-made and fun, does it matter? I'm just confused as to the active hostility toward Jeff that seems to boil to the surface every now and then, and usually for reasons that seem fairly irrational to me. I don't mean this post as a flame against those who hold low opinions of Jeff. I'm just curious as to their motivation. Z

FIXED!!!!! The problem was I had version 1.1.1 installed instead of 1.1.3 I'm a happy camper!!!!

I'm having a strange problem with Avernum 3 on my brand new 17" iMac computer running OS 10.2 - In combat, the enemy characters' moves are not shown. I sounds are played and during my turn they appear to where they've moved, but it gets pretty annoying. I tried changing the screen settings, reinstalling, etc., and nothing seems to work. Does anyone have any suggested fixes? Zorro

At the risk of disagreement with the general tone of the board - I must say I found the Romans to be much more interesting and fun for the following reasons: 1) Matches my playing style - I prefer playing warriors, and the Romans are TOUGH warriors. 2) Discipline - the Roman order was far more disciplined than anything else in its day, and this game does a nice job of showing the fear and respect the subdued populations had. 3) Its fun to play the "bad guys" - Every now and then its fun to be the ones that should be stopped - a kind of anti-hero. 4) The final quest - The final quest is more difficult and more fun in the Roman campaign. These are MY reasons (not your reasons), so please do not attack me for not understanding YOUR reasons why the Romans suck. In other words - I respect your point of view and ask that you respect mine. Z