Hyena of Ice

In Fantasy D&D 3x terms, Shades are either incorporeal undead or incorporeal... aberrations?

In either case, the best comparison to anything paranormal would be the whole "ghosts, psychic projections, life energy/ki/chi/qi/auras, and the human soul are made of EMPs *electromagnetic fields*" Along with the mind control beams from the gub'ment weather control machine (which also uses EMPs to control our weather-- oh, and it's also an earthquake machine, which causes earthquakes by sending EMPs between the tectonic plates. Oh, and you know the "theraputic touch"-- where the quacks situate their palms a few inches above the subject's body? Yeah, that involves manipulating the chi/aura/electrical field of the subject's body to like-- speed healing or something like that.) That only covers half of the pseudoscience involving electromagnetic fields (I didn't even cover ley lines/parralels, and their supposed ties to both the Oregon Vortex and spontaneous human combustion, or the people who claim that directed energy weapons took out the Twin Towers, which they visually hid with a gianormous hologram-- which also used an EMP.)

Essence would likely be something different, but Jeff based it off of the rules of electromagnetism in "paraphysics".

Really, if you want to get to what Jeff has based shades off of, it would be this. Just like Jeff based the Vahnatai off of the hollow-earth aliens in conspiracydom, non-subversive saucer cults, and new-age religions. (in fact, Avernum itself is inspired by the Hollow Earth urban legends, and myths, and Jules Verne novel.)

Of course, you still have to ask yourself in-game-wise how it's possible to punch a shade in the face if it's incorporeal and thus has no mass. I suppose you could use the claim that shapers and outsider mages can touch them by channeling essence into their weapons/attacks, but that still doesn't account for how a Fyora can bite a shade.

Had another weird G3 dream last night-- only this one I don't plan on implementing.

One part, which apparently happened not long after the entire chapter of my first dream (e.g. not long after overthrowing the syndicate), the trio stumble into a secret shaper lab on Dhonal-- involved in disease/bioweapon study. Many sick humans behind glass. I specifically remember many of them having a network of fungal nodules/trackmarks under their skin (think sorta like scabies trackmarks, only bigger) One of the messed up things about this (aside from all the obvious ones) is that many were in man-made patterns-- so I guess like-- they were performing experiments on these victims to see if they could get some sort of working sacred geometry/magic/shaper seals using fungal infections under peoples' skin.

I don't remember the trio's reactions too well, other than that I had Esther kill the shaper lab tech and the other two had zero problem with this.

Also, in a completely separate scene, Alwan is parrying (i.e. ducking + kneeling behind his shield) against a drayk's breath attack (only instead of a bolt of flame, it's a long jet-- man, that drayk had one seriously healthy set of lungs) Since, in my fic, the Agents don't typically use shields (interferes with some types of spellcasting), they were ducked behind Alwan as well.

Only problem was, this drayk's fire breath has the "knockback" property, so he's getting pushed back. Not wanting to end up getting fried due to Alwan ending up behind them, Esther and Greta grab on for dear life-- only it's not enough, so the three of them are still getting slowly pushed back.

>_> Too bad it's too early in my fic for the second scene (they've only cleared the Ambush Bridge, Holding Shed Row, Storage Road, and South Dhonal Road. Drayks don't appear in G3 until the Darkstone Mine core.)

I really don't want to see a full OST, and I hope Jeff would not be deluded enough to consider it (no offense intended to Jeff-- I highly doubt he would consider it in the first place)

Problem with OSTs is that you can't please everyone, plus from what we've seen of the games using the newer engine/tech (A6, Avadons, and the A1/2 remakes), the music in there is all too similar-- choir music with some bells and other instrumentals-- the only one that greatly impresses me is the A2 remake's opening, I love it and it inspires G3 fanfic scenes in my head (mainly when Alwan is healed and later when the group gears up to take down the syndicate that tried to kill them).

To be sure, I don't want to see G3's opening theme redone this way-- I think it's perfect all 16-bit techno-ish as it is save that I wish it was a full tune and not just a short jingle

A full OST-- I have not seen anyone or too many here suggest it and I think it would be a bad idea in general. First off, I think it would be a lot of work for Jeff or whoever makes those opening themes in the newer games.

Second, they'd have to come up with songs that are most likely to appeal to almost everyone. Third, they'd have to figure out how to balance music and sound in a way that the music does not interfere with crucial sound effects. Finally, they'd have to be careful not to pick an unfitting song for the scene-- unless Jeff can script songs to change during certain cut scenes or dialogues, this is not going to work. Imagine in G3 the music not changing from the field music when you meet Litalia at the South End or at the Spire Docks. Then of course there are times when silence really is more fitting for the scene with some ambient drips really is more fitting for the scene than music. (Themesongs that play when you talk to certain characters would be pretty cool, I have to admit, but I'd rather not see it.)

Anyhow, so far, this is what I've seen almost everyone request or agree upon:

--Auto-remove failed or closed quests from quest list

--Treat Alwan and Greta as full characters rather than creations in G3

--Allow the use of disciplines similar to Avernum-- either for Guardians alone or for everyone, but using the same rules as magic and shaping (in this case, disciplines being trainable techniques like spells, requiring points of combat skills to use/make more powerful)

--NPCs and creations gain XP based on their own level rather than the player's (e.g. let's say your Fyora is lv 12 and you're lv 18-- the Fyora should gain XP as a level 12 character rather than a lv 18 character)

--Either a junk bag or pack-mule creations which can be sent back to town to sell or store loot, and do not require high-levels of shaping.

Not mentioned by many, but presumably supported by nearly everyone

--Gender options for every class (e.g. choose to make your guardian/Agent/etc. either male or female rather than being stuck with male guardians, female infiltrators, etc.)

Up to debate, probably supported by most but not high on the list for those who have not mentioned it

--Fully optional romance options in G3, which you choose to either enable or disable at the start of the game, along with ability to enable or disable possible same sex romance options (possibly even allowing a difficult-to-achieve love-triangle outcome that some torment-level-players might covet for the challenge >_>)

--Optional augmentation bonuses for creations after they gain/reach x number of levels, possibly via special items similar to forging

--Stealth skill of some type

--Creations with non-combat and/or non-attack purposes. (d'ornkies as pack mules you can send back to town to sell or store your loot, a small bat-like, firefly-like, or moth-like creation that sheds light, a creation that auto-buffs anyone friendly characters standing within x number of spaces near it, etc.)

Controversial

--Newer "non-equipped items are weightless" rules vs everything has weight as per the original series (personally I don't like the idea of Geneforge remakes implementing the newer "only equippables have weight" system)

--Equippable items for creations with limits (e.g. humanoid creations may be able to equip weapons and armor, non-humanoid creations only have one or two accessory slots)

And, ones I want to see that nobody else has mentioned:

--Monster and item encyclopedias as per a lot of the JRPGs out there like Castlevania-- entry becomes unlocked once you put the item in your inventory for the first time, or once you kill x number of the monster. Monster encyclopedia includes item drops (unlocked on list once at least one of your kills has dropped that particular item) and weakness/strengths.

--Ability to talk in a non-intrusive way to party members (even creations). (e.g. right click a character to see their HP/friendliness, with text saying "right click again to talk". Creations are just for fun, while Alwan and Greta engage in dialogue-- secret dialogues possible in certain regions or certain rooms of said regions, before or after certain events-- e.g. after killing the drayk with worms in the Crumbling Lab) Creations would get responses like grunts or growls most of the time, with possible stuff like "Fyora snaps at a crossing butterfly" or "Thahd drools blankly at you"

--Something that I cannot imagine that most of you here would not want as well--

ABILITY TO MARK PLACES ON THE MAP. Preferably by using the cursor as a stylus, but if that it impossible, then with little icon/sprite stamps (like-- you get to choose from a tiny treasure chest, speech bubble, crossed swords, pouch, etc. You can go back and erase/remove the mark later). Most useful for remembering where the locked chests are. Sure, I should probably just write it down on scrap paper, but I never remember to. We all want this, right?

^^Yeah, does seem like that might be the case. Wish we could get someone here who has seen the code to give specifics.

They know about larger microbes such as certain species of fungi, and probably know at least a bit about other colony-forming microbes (you know, ones that form colonies big enough that you can see the mass with the naked eye-- though they would likely mistake these for some sort of fungus) They'd definitely have to know about toxic algae as well, since a lot of those aren't actually very small organisms.

Bare minimum, they'd be at the toxemia-theory-of-disease level (outdated 19th century theory that disease was caused by the toxic byproducts of decaying matter such as compost, rotting meat, and pus-- also fit with the miasma theory of disease, which was used to explain why people get malaria, encephalitis, dengue fever, and other diseases near stagnant water-- germ theory of disease made the toxemia theory obsolete.) Esp. since poison curing spells appear to target disease as well (game mechanics wise)

A few shades are actual ghosts-- Tithian or Tithius in the Acidic Valley in G3 for example. Most shades are the result of essence either from a human/creation *usually a powerful vlish* or from a conglomeration of raw essence that takes humanoid form (the shades in the mines in G2 for example)

None of the magic in Geneforge is at all realistic. The best you could plausibly come up with without invoking technology so advanced as to be indistinguishable from magic is highly advanced genetic engineering to create entirely new forms of life, and it would look nothing like shaping and could not plausibly produce, say, fire- or ice-breathing velociraptors.

 

—Alorael, who if anything would remove the genes from Geneforge and keep that inaccurate and unnecessary nod to science out of the way of a neat but entirely fantasy conceit.

You could also go the paraphysics route that some of the ghost chasers and harmless saucer cults (e.g. Ashtar Command) proclaim. The former claim that souls are made out of electromagnetic energy, just like auras and chi/ki/qi. The latter claim that there are "energy light beings" which are far more advanced than humans and not tempted by the sins of the flesh. They claim that these lifeforms consist of living electromagnetic energy.

Save the alien thing (which is still incredibly unlikely), none of this is even plausible.

^^True. The monetary adjustment, esp, in G3 with Alwan and Greta as full characters, would have to be there so that instead you can only afford half the training for the combined three plus creations. This also means that for that reason and having two more characters, G3 would also need to have more equipment lying around-- granted, one can make due with the amount of mundane equipment already in the game, but more magical equipment and forge materials (minus artifact components which IMO should remain the same) would be needed.

Then if you consider the possibility of having battle techniques/disciplines like Avernum and Avadon for non-creation characters, in the Geneforge series those would likely have levels and be trainable, as well, just like spells (or that's the way I would prefer it anyhow)

Though if we wanted to keep the stats simple, then a skill tree would be out of the question-- even though the ones I came up with were much more limited and combat/Guardian-oriented (granted, some I came up with were also fic-specific, as in they'd have no actual in-game use, such as the crafting skill (which in my fic is used primarily for repair work or replacing regular leather armor straps with like-- fyoraskin ones-- which doesn't actually confer any protection to the wearer, it just makes the straps more resistant to damage.)

Otherwise, these are the ones I came up with:

--Riposte: obvious

--Energy Preservation: (unless the remakes implemented the G4/5 EP characteristic from equipment) Uses 2.5% (rounded down) less SP per level, simple as that, no advanced math involved. Unlike the item mod, the percentage would be 50 or 100%, I would hope at least. So at 10 maxed out ranks, it would use 1/4th less SP-- so a 40 sp spell would instead cost 30 sp. Most won't get it to 10 ranks since the base cost FOR AN AGENT is the same as Spellcraft (3) Would require something like 6 of all magic skills + 4 or 6 healing craft (not too steep for most games since there are books and trainers abound)

--Essence Preservation (needs a different name) (reduces EP cost of creations-- 3% reduction per rank of Essense Preservation. requirements would have to be incredibly steep so that it's only obtainable late in the game or even at all unless you optimize the character (thus making it only available to Shapers and Lifecrafters)-- like, it would require 6 spellcraft + 7 or 8 Fire shaping, + 7 or 8 Battle shaping + 6 or 8 INT, and 10 magic shaping.)

--Mirror Shield (chance to reflect ranged fire/cold/energy/poison/acid attacks back on the attacker-- of limited usefulness, obviously and probably not worth putting in the game)

--Deflect: parry attack against an ally within 2 spaces (or maybe 3?)

--Dual Wielding: obvious

--then I could also see Anatomy being one.

Then again, with the exception of Anatomy (and Dual Wielding, sorta), all of these have unique effects rather than adding an additional modifier to basic stats, so it would still keep the modifiers simple.

Another (somewhat situational) problem is that fresh creations in the field would be particularly weak and vulnerable, unless you decide to lug around a bunch of creation-useable gear just in case. After all, if creations can use equipment, game balance must include that factor.

Indeed. Though to be fair, my idea is that they can only equip accessories-- with only 1 or two equipment slots (so no armor of any kind). Excepting late into the game (well, in G2 and G3 anyway), accessories don't boost stats by all that much. The most useful items for them until you can get the Infiltrator's or Avenger's ring would be mind-resistance boosting collars, and none of the gear would be creation-only equipment (e.g. your character can equip collars into the ring slot like creations, though it would be pointless to do so) So lugging around extra accessories is less of an issue when you can use them, too, and up until I get the infiltrator's ring, I always lug the resistance-boosting rings (which I always augment with a crystal of the same element, thus boosting resistance by 5) with me (minus ivory band-- Mica band is superior in every way)

It has also been stated in more than one game that battle alphas have a chitinous carapace or skin (can't remember which)

<useless post>

Also, I haven't played G4 and 5 yet-- are all the things worth 4 gp or more still sellable in G4 and G5? I hope they are, and that any remakes are as well instead of what we have in Avadon, the Avernum remakes, and A6 where only a few mundane objects can be sold

If so, I figured out Geneforge-esque prices for several items from the Avadon and newer Avernum titles (and still adding more)

--Abacus: Unable to decide just yet-- either 12 or 15, probably.

--Bag of Charcoal: 25

--Bag of Sugar: 30 (still not 100% decided on this one since sugar is likely to be very expensive in Avernum)

--Bellows: I honestly can't decide just yet-- either 8 or 12.

--Chisel: 2

--Gold Nugget: 180 gp (raw math by comparing G5 to A2 remake gold bar prices)

--Hoe: 4 (don't make it 8-- hoes/plows can be made by combining a pole with recycled metal-- I mean there's mention of it in the Bible, turning swords into plowshares)

--Mortar & Pestle: 12

--Rake: Depends on whether Jeff decides it it metal or wood based. Wood = 3, metal = 8

--Vise: 5

--Weights: 12

If A4+ and Avadon gems were included, then they would likely be closest to A4 prices (Emerald 200, Ruby 300... and comparing to the gem prices in Avadon... Sapphire 80 *same as beautiful crystal in G4/5*)

</useless post>

^^To be fair, your character is probably doing the same thing. I mean imagine Dakro finding his first iron mail for free, but it's designed for a lady guardian...

^^Actually, they don't WEAR the chitin armor, it's part of their bodies-- I know this is mentioned somewhere in some of the games.

They do wear chain mail however-- or perhaps that's supposed to be part of their body as well.

Probably needs closer comparisons-- like 2 points difference and 4 points difference (e.g. 6 dex/4 QA vs 4 Dex/6 QA)

Bigger by how much?

Do each increase initiative by 1 point? I can't even find exact info for Quick Action for any Avernum or Geneforge game, actually. Anyone know?

I'm having this same problem, but uninstalling the demo then reinstalling the Humblebundle A4 installer didn't help. How do I fix it? Is it too late for a refund when it's been nearly a month? A6 works just fine, but A4 doesn't.

Just emailed support, but I'm paranoid that I'll never get a reply, or if I do, it will be useless and they'll never be able to help me, and suggest I re-purchase the bundle.

How can I be 100% certain this will not happen?

I would rather not see creation equipment. It would complicate things,

Hmm, now that you mention it, you're right, when you consider the PC equipment that boosts creation stats.

Also, I agree 100% with separate level-by-exp rates (I was actually going to bring that up if you didn't)

The other stuff I'm not sure on.

One note about creation romance though--- In G3, if you fail to convince Litalia not to attack her, she makes an ambiguous comment about Akhari Blaze making her do his dirty with ending with "Me, his..." Though very ambiguous, it looks to me like she was about to admit to having a romantic relationship with Akhari Blaze... not really sure how that would work on a physical level O_o

• Unpopular opinion (?) time -- I actually wouldn't like the stat tree from Avadon/A:EFTP being included in the Geneforge games. But that's also mostly personal bias against it (I've always found stat trees difficult).
  

That doesn't appear to be an unpopular opinion so far-- I don't want to see it either, and a few others here have stated the same-- only one person so far has said they want it. I'd love a junk bag, but at the same time, I like the mundane objects weighing a person down-- okay, I don't, but I also don't want to see it go away like it has in newer games.

But seriously, I would like to see some melee techniques like in the newer avernum games, only they wouldn't cause fatigue-- instead they would cost spell points, and a few would cost essence. Would make the Guardians much more formidable-- Agents and Shapers also get a few. Ones I've come up with:

--Hamstring (causes Slow-- 3 melee weapons, 3 healing craft)

--Devastating Pin (couldn't come up with a good name-- javelin attack that immobilizes the opponent. Requires 5 missile weapons, uses strength instead of dex for damage and success rate.)

--Whirlwind Blade (as per the newer games-- hits all enemies within 2 or 3 spaces of the user with a sword attack. Requires 7 melee weapons, 5 quick action)

--Blade Dance (similar to Whirlwind Blade, but only adjacent opponents, and uses DEX instead of STR-- good for Agents who get surrounded. Requires 3 melee weapons, 3 quick action.)

--Venom Lance (similar to Searer, but inflicts DIRECT poison damage-- some of the monsters late in the game actually are weak to poison. Prereq. 3 spellcraft, 5 battle mag, and access to a lv. 3 or higher Battle Magic spell *searer or later*)

--Aura of Cold (as aura of flames, but cold damage-- Needs 5 spellcraft, 7 battle magic, and at least 1 rank of aura of flames.)

--Life Transfer (give up HP to another ally. Not that great, but possibly good for agents. Requires a mere 2 healing craft, 3 spellcraft. Ranks based on spellcraft, alone.)

--Energy Transfer (OH YEAH! Give Spell Energy to an adjacent ally-- 25+ 5 per level of spellcraft (For example, with 5 ranks in spellcraft, Greta, if hasted, could transfer bet. 30~100 SP to another character) Requires 2 or 3 ranks of spellcraft. At last, a way to recover spell energy!)

--Share Resistance (Gives creations the resistances *but not armor* of the caster. Requirements are steep-- 7 fire shaping, 7 battle shaping, and 7 magic shaping. This is a mixed blessing as some of the shaper's resistances will be lower than the creation's *for example, Rotghoroths have an Acid and Poison resistance of like 80 or 90%.)

--Infuse Baton (poison and acid batons inflict straight- up poison or acid damage instead of physical-- submission batons are unchanged except for 1/3 chance of inflicting slow. Requires 5 missile weapons, 3 spellcraft)

--Spined Shield (creates a "steel spine" effect. Steel spines on equipment enhance this ability. Uses level of shield + Parry as a base, requires 7 parry, 7 melee weapons.)

--Rallying Cry (Removes all mind-affecting conditions on entire party-- requires 5 leadership, 5 healing craft, 3 melee weapons. Uses leadership as a base.)

The G3 fic I'm coming up with, I gave the characters stuff like this as well, in addition to Avernum-style disciplines (making the skill tree for the above techniques a bit different) One of the Guardian-centered abilities not listed above is Shield Bash-- though it is mostly for flavor as I don't picture it having any use in the actual game (it is powered off of the protection of the shield as weapon base level + parry ranks + strength) The disciplines include riposte, counterattack (uses full attack power, but does not block the attack, and most often works against a more devastating blow) mirror shield (reflects ranged fire/cold/energy/poison/acid attacks back at the attacker-- Alwan doesn't have it yet though), dual wielding (Greta has a few ranks in it) and "Crafting" (no in-game use-- gives the user ability to maintain and repair equipment. Alwan's stuff does get bashed up, and you can just imagine how the leather armor straps would fare in the swamps of Harmony Isle...) Which just made me think of something for forging items in my fic...

• While we are at it, some way of boosting our creation through weapons or equipment? I think Alphas and Betas sometimes drop chitin armor, and it makes sense for a Thahd to wield a club. make a use for those axes we find, eh?
  

Yeah, I suggested this earlier, thinking back to the JRPG Saga Frontier, where the monster race could only equip accessories (rings, necklaces, charms) Make a ring called "Collar of Loyalty" or something like that which boosts mind effect resistance.

I vehemently agree that there shouldn't be a fatigue for spells like in Avadon-- it would prettymuch make Agents impotent.

Meh, guess I'm stuck with death-threat-brand copy and pasting, then. >_< What a nightmare...

Maybe there can be a marriage system where you have a permanent bond with one favorite creation until it dies. If you marry a thad for example he will jump in front of ranged attacks that would hit you and maybe if you get knocked unconcious an intelligent creation would perform CPR and bring you back if they manage to finish the battle on their own.

Maybe with NPCs; it's my understanding that creations, due to the fact that they are born of your essence, are considered either mere animals (if dumb) or like your own children if intelligent which, as I think we all can agree on, isn't something anyone should want in a game.

Why not? After all, a few idiots in the USA and Europe have married themselves for "female empowerment" (and gotten away with it due to a lack of laws against marrying yourself :\ ) over the past century.

I don't know, I've heard that gazers are very "biological." (thanks for that weird tidbit of information from G4, Jeff)

Anyone else see a likely pairing with Japanese anime girls, here? >_>

^^That's partly because the majority of the Geneforge series' chosen used canisters or the Geneforge. Three of the four leaders in G2, Trajkov, Akhari Blaze, the first 4 protagonists, Litalia, Lankan....

a surreal moment for me was when I confronted Trajkov. From what I garnered from conversations with various serviles and defected Sholai, I believed Trajkov to be a monster (oh the irony), maddened by canister use to the point where he was a rabid dog, to be put down as soon as possible. In reality, Trajkov seemed... sane(?) and rational(? again) to me, willing to treat with you in order to gain an ally in his war against the Shapers. Whether this was driven by his given reason of fighting the injustice the Shapers propagated or simply a power grab, the manner in which the story played out threw me for a second.

He was definitely maddened and paranoid due to the canisters, but he had better control over it than most characters in the series-- second only to Litalia IMO from anyone in G1-3, your character included.

Yes, that was what I found with Nazil. However, this was not mentioned in the Synergy or faq, or anywhere, and I know that the former has been updated from the demo version rules.

*Looks everywhere on internet*

*Searches the game even more*

*gets even more frustrated*

It better not be the house on that hill NW of Silvar because it's empty! The ones due north of the toll bridge are also empty, so which house is it, this is driving me crazy!

Please just provide a screenshot on the exact location asap... (I doubt verbal directions will help even 1%)

Edit: Found him. In the same building as Neron. He was not there until after my first battle with the Cackling Demon. Someone should mention this in a faq or Synergy-- there's no way I could have missed him before, so I'm certain he wasn't there until after the Cackling Demon fight.

There is no such place in the E. Gallery as a "bridge with caged bags of meal" Please tell me where Nazil actually is, I've searched the entire island up and down and no such person exists, I'm getting rather frustrated, esp. with your horrible directions