Geneforge 2 canister question - how much is too much?

[spidersilk]

I'm playing G2 (yes, I know, way behind the times!), as an agent, currently allied with the Awakened, and I have a quandary about skill canisters.

 

I used most of the ones I found early in the game, because in G1 there didn't seem to be much of a down side to that, but as time went on it seemed like they were really emphasizing the dehumanizing, crazy-making effects of the canisters, so I stopped. However, I'm currently exploring Rising and the Radiant College, and canisters are *everywhere* so it's getting really tempting. While at the same time I'm constantly running into people who have been driven crazy by them.

 

I know, this particular quandary is part of the plot, as much a personal decision as which sect (if any) to join, but I guess the real question on my mind is: since I already used some of them, early on, am I doing myself any good by not using them now? I've seen allusions to there being different endings depending on whether or not you use them, but I don't know if that's dependent on whether you've ever used *any*, or whether you've used them beyond a certain level, or what.

 

If there's a certain "tipping point" before which you get the (presumably) better endings and beyond which you get the worse ones, is there any way of finding out whether you've already gone too far and the damage is done (in which case, I might as well use all the ones I can find!), or whether it's still possible to do some good by avoiding them?

 

BTW, I also had the Awakened magical alteration, if that makes a difference. And I noticed that at a certain point (a while back) when I entered Medab, it said people were newly uneasy about me, but I wasn't sure if that was due to the magical alteration or having hit some threshold of canister use. But that was when I stopped using them.

[Retlaw May]

You basically have to be a canister chugger if you work for the Awakened, I guess it is possible to not be, but that makes it MUCH more complicated. You have already passed the point of no return with the canisters, after the alteration made by the Awakened.

[*i]

I believe you are pretty much past the point where using canisters matters much anymore, just use as many as you can find from here. Besides, it makes no difference except for the ending.

[spidersilk]

Hmmm, OK. I was afraid that their alteration probably accomplished much the same thing... Tuldaric seemed every bit as crazy as Barzahl.

 

It's just kind of ironic, when the Awakened's whole purpose is to have serviles treated with respect, and one of the effects of the canisters is to make you feel superior and look down on everyone and everything else. It's like you get made into a de facto Barzite even while trying to follow the Awakened philosophy.

 

Then again, complex political situations are never without their ironies, and it's not like it's the first time in history - real or fictional - that rebels end up resembling what they're rebelling against.

 

Ah, well. Now to try and remember all the places where I left canisters untouched and go back and get them. :-)

 

Thanks everyone.

[MagmaDragoon]

Side note: Also in GF2 you can use only six canister before became "mad"?

[spidersilk]

Hmmm, maybe before I hadn't used as many as I thought. After posting the above, I went back into the game and quickly used about 4 canisters in succession, of the ones I'd passed up before. And then when I went into Rising, I got a big message saying that everyone was staring at me now, and I was glowing, and I no longer cared about anyone and considered them all inferior. :-(

 

So I guess I did pass some kind of threshold... I thought I'd used at least six before, but maybe not. Wonder if that means that if I went back to my previous save slot and carried on from there with no more canisters, I'd get the no-canister ending?

 

Or maybe this is some further-on threshold beyond that that makes it all worse?

 

Not really sure how to proceed here. I mean, if I'd wanted to play a power-mad dictator, I'd have joined the Barzites in the first place. Being able to choose your own path is one of the things I like about this game.

 

I guess I'm particularly curious, Retlaw May, why you said that you have to use the canisters if you're Awakened. It seems kind of contrary that in order to follow that cause, you have to do something that will make you no longer believe in it. How is it "MUCH more complicated" if you don't? Is it just because you end up not as powerful, or something more?

 

Right now I'm kind of afraid to go back and play at all because I don't know if I want to continue on from where I used the additional 4 canisters and see what happens, or go back to my previous save and keep avoiding them. I don't want to either be forced into being a mini-Barzahl, or find out I can't complete the game because I'm not powerful enough... But I'm not sure if there any choices other than those. :-(

[AnarhIztok2511]

If you'd not be powerful enough, you can always return for the canisters, they won't go away unless for the first one you see just before freegate.

[Student of Trinity]

You can comfortably complete G2 without touching a single canister, and without being modified. Well, you can only do it comfortably on Torment if you really know what you're doing. I did it with a Guardian, but that's surely the easiest class to do it with, because you won't miss the highest level creations or spells, and because pumping Parry in G2 can make you practically invulnerable. I think Mike Montgomery, who was the first to achieve this feat (including clearing every zone, not just winning), did it with an Agent. I'd miss Aura of Flames too much, myself.

 

So you don't need canisters to have enough power to finish the game.

[spidersilk]

Quote:

Well, you can only do it comfortably on Torment if you really know what you're doing.

Torment? Isn't that in G3 rather than 2?

Actually, I already have Aura of Flames - you can learn it up to level 2 from Tuldaric at the Magus Complex, along with most of the other high level spells, if you can gather enough cash.

I think I'm leaning toward going back to the last save and trying it without any more canisters - I'm really not crazy about the whole "You are now glowing and evil" bit. That doesn't seem to bother anyone else from what I can gather from people's comments on these boards and in the FAQs, but it kind of creeped me out.

[Student of Trinity]

No, difficulty settings Easy through Torment have been there from G1.

 

For Aura of Flames you need to be modified, which also counts as canister use. I forget how many canisters it counts as. You may remember that it gave you some disturbing messages, too.

 

There are exactly four effects of canisters: they give you added powers, they make scarey messages appear from time to time, they slightly alter some endings, and in one unimportant place in G2 they make you enter combat mode automatically. Even in that one place, you can still just leave without actually slaughtering anyone. So everything in the game is pretty much consistent with the possibility that you lose empathy by being modified too much, and other people fear you, but you are able to control your emotions and not actually become an evil monster.

[spidersilk]

Ah, I see. The only references I'd seen to Torment had been in posts concerning G3, so I'd assumed it was a place in that one. I've never altered the difficulty level, so I assume I'm at whatever the default level is.

 

I did get the alteration, but I guess even with that and the canisters I had used before it, it wasn't enough to give me the "You're now glowing and feel that everyone else is inferior" message, just the "People seem slightly uneasy around you" message. So I guess there are different levels of canister-taint.

 

Maybe I'll just try continuing on without them, but take note of where they are so if I feel really outclassed later I can always come back and use them.

 

I guess the one remaining question on my mind is whether the ending-alterations apply only if you get to the glowy point with the canister use, or even if you just got to the making-people-uneasy point.

[Student of Trinity]

The default difficulty is Normal; below it is Easy, and above it are Tricky and Torment. They just alter the hit points and damage of monsters, but of course this can make a big difference in the game. If you refine your tactics to the point where the fights all start seeming like pushovers, crank up the difficulty. Torment is tough enough that most people seem to find it enough of a challenge.

 

There is only one threshold level of canister use for affecting the endings, and it isn't zero; but I forget just what it is. Maybe 10? But I think that alteration to cast level 4 spells counts as at least one canister. There was a thread about this long ago, so you could try searching.

[Retlaw May]

The only comfortable way to complete the game on Torment without canisters and without the augmentation of the crazy shaper guy is if you are a Servant.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Anarhiztok:

 

Quote:

If you'd not be powerful enough, you can always return for the canisters, they won't go away unless for the first one you see just before freegate.

That one doesn't go away either. I know I've left it and come back for it a while later.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Suspicious Vlish]

SoT:

Quote:

But I think that alteration to cast level 4 spells counts as at least one canister.

From memory, being altered counted as two canisters.

[AnarhIztok2511]

Quote:

Originally written by Dikiyoba:
That one doesn't go away either. I know I've left it and come back for it a while later.

Well, i'm pretty much sure it wasn't there anymore when i got back. and i know i didn't use it, coz i read somewhere your ending is corrupted if you use this one. i'll check on this replay now.

[AnarhIztok2511]

Quote:

Originally written by Dikiyoba:
That one doesn't go away either. I know I've left it and come back for it a while later.

Well, i'm pretty much sure it wasn't there anymore when i got back. and i know i didn't use it, coz i read somewhere your ending is corrupted if you use this one. i'll check on this replay now.

edit: sorry for the double one, something went wrong

[Zylox]

I believe that the limit on the number of canisters you can use and not have them affect the ending is either 8 or 9. I experimented a while back and verified this number, but I have forgotten the exact amount since then

 

I don't know if being altered counts as one or more canisters, or counts as using too many canisters.

 

If you want to double check whether you have used too many canisters, save your game and then leave the island. If the council executes you, you know you have used too many canisters