Avernum: EftP - Retrospective by a humble Potato

[Dear Potato]

I've finally beat this new version of Avernum, and I want to express my opinions and feelings about the game, along with some summarized elements that I wish, someday, Spiderweb games implement.

 

Please, note that english is not my language, so excuse me if I make grammar atrocities.

 

First of all, I want to say that Avernum is my second game from Spiderweb; my first title was Avadon (I really liked Avadon, and that's the main reason I bought Avernum blindly). So, when I started playing Escape from the Pit, I was utterly surprised with the freedom and gameplay it offers; I knew gameplay was not as story driven as Avadon, but I didn't expect the scope and enormous world that awaited me. The amount of content and details of Avernum as a world is surprising.

 

On the other hand, I missed some of the party interactions and story driven elements from Avadon. A mix between the two gameplay styles could be epic

 

I don't know how was the skill and level up system from the original Avernum, but taking Avadon as a referent, I must say it's a clear improvement. It provides a neat canvas to make very interesting characters, without absurd restrcitions or non-personal complete freedom.

 

One little detail that I really appreciatte is the way that max level capacity is handled; also, I love how boss fights, no matter what level you go for them, always show some kind of challenge. The battle with the emperor and the big-badass demons are truly masterpieces

 

At artistic and technical level, despite being almost identical to Avadon, I reaaaaally enjoyed the more coherent size of maps and dungeons. Not only everything looked like better, but also was much more fun to play.

 

So, I'm going to try and summarize some elements that I've missed or wished for both Avadon and Avernum, specially concernign the interface:

 

- More user friendly windows: Given the amount of loot that these games tend to offer, I always miss something like the Divinity way to handle tabs and windos (just a simple right click on any part of the window to close it)

 

- Music: Probably discussed a lot and explained here, but since I'm new, I feel the urge to say that these games would feel even more great with a proper OST. There are lots of great independent composers out there that could make impressive works.

 

- Categories and tabs to arrange quests; especially in Avernum, the seer amount of quests could benefit form such thing.

 

- Magical items: There are some cool magical pieces of equipment in Avernum, but few of them are really useful or remarkable. I think some better magical equipment, with unique and interesting descriptions coul add to the already great setting.

 

- More skills or abilities not combat focused, that let the player make interesting things (for example, a particular skill tree for thieves for thieving; or crafting for warriors; or diplomacy for mages).

 

- More chances to solve quests without violence. In this case, the aforementioned non-violent skills could be useful.

 

And more or less, I think that's all. Apart form the letdown with Athron that I posted the other day, I think Avernum: Escape from the Pit is a wonderful game. Thanks to it and Avadon, I'm eager to see what comes next

[The Reverend]

You might enjoy Spiderweb's geneforge games - they have a leadership skill (like the diplomacy skill you mention), the chance to avoid violence in many cases, and a great deal of crafting, at least in the later games.

[Alorael at Large]

The lack of music has been explained a number of ways: Jeff doesn't want to pay for it, doesn't want to bloat his download sizes, and doesn't like music in games anyway. The first may be a diminishing concern as amateurs willing to work cheap or even free get more access to better and better tools. The second matters less as high speed internet proliferates and download sizes relative to mp3 sizes keep going up anyway. The third still matters, but Jeff is ever one to bow to pragmatism. If he thought music would help sell his games and make him more money, he'd go for it.

 

Lilith can give a longer argument against non-combat skills. I'll just say that it often comes down to locking content away from those who choose to focus on combat, which isn't really fun or fair. Thieving skills would require the addition of a real thieving subgame, crafting already exists as a non-skill (and previously existed as the alchemy skill, which Jeff dropped), and diplomacy exists in Geneforge.

 

Geneforge, especially the first, is known for non-combat solutions. You can't get every ending that way, but you can win without killing a thing.

 

—Alorael, who dislikes diplomacy skills and lockpicking skills substantially. They're not fun to have or use, but if you don't have them you lose access to rewards and often areas of the game that are worth seeing. If you do have them you're worse at combat, but you can make do. In games that have those skills you also need to invest in the skills, but they're not really fun.

[Earth]

older games there are more non-combat skills.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: The Epistemological Rabbit Hole

Lilith can give a longer argument against non-combat skills. I'll just say that it often comes down to locking content away from those who choose to focus on combat, which isn't really fun or fair.

Paradoxically, it also means that the better you are at combat as a player, the more you can invest in non-combat stuff, since you can afford to invest fewer skill points in combat skills. There are a number of ways to handle this problem, but all of the options except for minimising the importance of non-combat skills will add significant complexity to the game. Complexity isn't always a bad thing, but Jeff has been striving for a bit more simplicity in his recent games.

[Alorael at Large]

The other option, which has become increasingly popular, is to divorce the systems. You can be good at lockpicking or good at herbalism or good at persuasion, but not all three. You can be great with a sword or when slinging fireballs, but not both.

 

—Alorael, who is okay with this. It doesn't really help the fact that he resents games that make it impossible or even just fairly difficult to access everything in one playthrough, but he knows this is a personal quirk, not a law of gaming. Many people like replayability.

[Dear Potato]

Woah, thank you all for your answers!

 

I'll try Geneforge next, then. I was about to buy the Genforge-saga pack at GoG, but I ended up with Avernum because the idea of commanding monsters never was my cup of tea.

 

By the way, I'm not sure if I understand; why locking content to those players who focus on combat and not diplomacy isn't fun? As I see it, is a perefectly valid way to increase replayability.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Dear Potato

By the way, I'm not sure if I understand; why locking content to those players who focus on combat and not diplomacy isn't fun? As I see it, is a perefectly valid way to increase replayability.

There's an inherent tension between replayability and completionism: the less content you can see in any one playthrough, the harder it is to see everything. People generally have their own preferences for one style of design or the other.