I take it back.

[Jerakeen]

Long ago, in another thread, I complained bitterly about the near-total uselessness of Daze and Charm, and the relative uselessness of Stunning effects.

 

I take it back.

 

Torment, I find, is a whole other game. Playing on Normal, it seemed to me that Nathalie's turn was best spent Making Things Dead. While she's still better at that than anyone else, it takes a little longer, and Things are more likely to make her (and the others) dead in the meantime. Suddenly, Making Things Stop Attacking You is dramatically more valuable than it was.

 

And I have to admit that these abilities are far more effective than I originally thought they were. I just finished the Titan Peaks, and I was able to nicely distract Chanakk's henchmen by charming one of them, leaving me free to concentrate on the Chief and his summons. Daze is still making a significant difference in large battles, and Shadowstep at level 3 is two kinds of awesome.

 

So Jeff, if you read this, I was wrong. If these abilities stay the same for Avadon 2, that's cool with me.

 

But please, more skill points next time.

[Alorael at Large]

Stunning and charming and dazing have always been better on higher difficulties. They scale much better than damage and defense, because their impact is directly proportional to the strength of your enemies.

 

—Alorael, who will take the opposite stance and oppose more skill points. Yes, more levels would be nice so the character building doesn't stop short, but it's actually nice not to be able to get even close to filling out all the extras in a character. It would just be nicer if there were more differing builds with similar levels of objective power.

[Jerakeen]

I would be content if it were possible to get both a top-tier skill and the opposing second-tier skill to level 6.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

I disagree. This would mean that characters/builds end up basically the same. I'd like a few more skill points (at least enough to raise one top tier skill to maximum), but not enough that you can get close to maxing out everything.

[ex post slarto]

The correct solution is really to have more skill points, but also a 4th skill column. This would be a bit harder to balance, but you'd get more variety in terms of both depth and breadth.

 

Of course, it looks like A:EFTP is doing something along these lines!

[Jerakeen]

Originally Posted By: FnordCola

I disagree. This would mean that characters/builds end up basically the same. I'd like a few more skill points (at least enough to raise one top tier skill to maximum), but not enough that you can get close to maxing out everything.

Perhaps I was unclear. I didn't mean enough to get both top-tier skills to 6, but enough to get one, as you say, with a few points to spare. So for example, a Blademaster could have both Call of the Frenzy and Sharpshooter Spray. Or any character could have one top-tier skill at 6 and still be able to max out their middle column.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: The Turtle Moves

So for example, a Blademaster could have both Call of the Frenzy and Sharpshooter Spray.

Technically this is possible in Avadon, it just requires very precise placement of skill points and putting at least one specialisation into the left column.

[Alorael at Large]

I think it would help substantially to not have any interdependence in the trees and no requirement for lower skills to be greater than or equal to higher skills. It's the lack of flexibility in the tree that limits builds.

 

—Alorael, who doesn't want a bigger tree. He wants a better tree. Plant smarter, not harder!

[Ceiling Durkheim]

Ah, sorry, I misread this. Anyway, what Lilith says. It's possible, but requires precision. And yeah, a few more would be nice, just not a lot more. Or a lot more, and more skills to spend them on.

[Skwish-E]

Originally Posted By: Am I not audible?

I think it would help substantially to not have any interdependence in the trees and no requirement for lower skills to be greater than or equal to higher skills. It's the lack of flexibility in the tree that limits builds.

Hear, hear.

[Bushwhacker2k]

Originally Posted By: Am I not audible?

I think it would help substantially to not have any interdependence in the trees and no requirement for lower skills to be greater than or equal to higher skills. It's the lack of flexibility in the tree that limits builds.

—Alorael, who doesn't want a bigger tree. He wants a better tree. Plant smarter, not harder!

Oh! Nicely said.

I agree that the need for all requisite skills to be equal to or higher than the skill you want to increase limits customization. I don't mind some requisition, but the way this is set up pretty much makes all characters gain the same skills, at least insofar as the middle branch (trunk?) and the lower tree (roots?); which goes against the entire purpose of the skill tree, which is variety and customization.

That said, I still like it, I'm just of the opinion that anything can be improved, and this is a good opportunity to take note of what can be made better.

To elaborate: a large skill tree where you can only gain a small portion is better than a decently sized skill tree where you pretty much get everything you need because the larger, more in-depth tree adds replayability and customization, which are some of the more important features to games like this IMO.

[Alorael at Large]

Keep in mind that most of Avadon's party customization is in the party members you choose, not the way you build those party members. It doesn't need to be that way, but that's the way I think it ended up.

 

—Alorael, who is also fairly sure that the pyramid rather than tree style of prerequisites was by design. It helps prevent new players from wrecking their characters with terrible builds easily. It's just also probably unnecessary given how easy it is to get a build do-over.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

That said, I'm pleased to hear that A:EftP will have a more arboreal skill system. Perhaps Avadon 2 will as well?

[Bushwhacker2k]

Originally Posted By: Am I not audible?

Keep in mind that most of Avadon's party customization is in the party members you choose, not the way you build those party members. It doesn't need to be that way, but that's the way I think it ended up.

—Alorael, who is also fairly sure that the pyramid rather than tree style of prerequisites was by design. It helps prevent new players from wrecking their characters with terrible builds easily. It's just also probably unnecessary given how easy it is to get a build do-over.

I'm the kind of gamer that prefers specializing with one character rather than doing decently with a team.

This is definitely my personal feelings, not necessarily what is better for the players as a whole, but I'd rather take a chance that I have a bad build then get a skill tree where it's impossible to do especially well on.

That said, I do feel Avadon was quite well done, even with its flaws, just to let any potential offended people know.