Spukrian

My encumbrance is to the total items in my pack, unlike in the later games where I can carry 999999999 tons of rock but as long as I don't equip it, I can still walk.

Not sure about this, but I think some people actually requested this.

Also, I remember in Geneforge 4 that you had to kill worms before killing shaped creations.

I think that's Geneforge 3.

It was fun to be honest, but the games all have their good and bad points. I just wish Jeff would consider these things when he finally remakes the game.

This is my hope as well.

Now, let's see how I fare at torment

Right now I'm playing Avernum 6 on Torment. If I manage to finish it, I will try all the Geneforge games on Torment.

Hrm. Could've sworn that it mentioned in one of the games that chitin armor was flimsy and made out of animal carapace -- it didn't specify which animal.

IIRC it is said that chitin armor is from a "creation specificially bred for this purpose", without describing the creation.

 

Also, I haven't played G4 and 5 yet-- are all the things worth 4 gp or more still sellable in G4 and G5? I hope they are, and that any remakes are as well instead of what we have in Avadon, the Avernum remakes, and A6 where only a few mundane objects can be sold

Everything woth 4 gp or more could be sold, however the value of some items change, i.e. some things you could sell in earlier games are worthless in GF4 and GF5.

I think that in at least some of the games, level also raises initiative.

After watching the soldier go in, a secret button should appear on the wall. When you click on it, you should get a message about doing exactly the same thing as the soldier.

I stand corrected then.

This is the first post suggesting that armor penalty in torment is multiplicative. Mivayan is right except about the number. It is (-50), or 2* damage in torment. I have not tested, but the (-25), or 1.43* can be what is in Hard difficulty.

The double damage on Torment and the armor penalty are two different things. What it means is that anyone with armor less than 36% (or whatever the number is) suffers the full 2*damage of any hit, i.e. armor is useless on Torment in the beginning of the game. At least this is how I understand it.

There's a Blades of Geneforge wiki with modding information here.

That's cool, thanks. Good to see that Geneforge's internal structures aren't a total mystery.

But it's probably not to be for Geneforge even if a lot of people would be happy to see Blades of Geneforge too.

There are some people in this forum working on this, though I don't know how it's going. I haven't tried the programs they've made so far...

Using Greiner's quest as an example, I'd expect the rebels to ask you to press their advantage, but they don't say anything and you end up always doing what the Shapers want, for that quest.

Actually, the rebel servile that approaches you on Dhonal's Isle explicitly tells you to do whatever it takes, even helping the Shapers, to reach and repair the Creator. Everything else isn't as important.

As it is, there is no indication in any of Lankan's dialogue that he has any ulterior motive besides getting rid of the rogues. The only reason to conclude that he won't agree with Diwaniya's plan (whatever the reason) is that the game doesn't allow you to propose it.

I do agree with you that the conflict is badly written. Lankan having ulterior motives is how I make sense of it, because the situation doesn't make any sense. It's almost a plothole.

Hence, I don't like Lankan, but I'm not willing to say it's completely his fault.

Diwaniya is definitely quite stubborn as well...

One of the most damning, we have shaper Agatha, and Rahul's complatency-- even approval of her crimes-- which encompass some of the most sacred of all shaper laws! This is where the shapers have become just like what they despise in their enemies.

Did Rahul really know of and approve of Agatha's crimes? I thought what Agatha and the other Shapers were working was secret and classified, at least untill the PC takes care of the problems on the island.

IIRC I've read in a thread here somewhere, that the reason for this is that Jeff wanted to simulate a war, and in wars you don't compromise, you pick a side. I believe that is the real reason behind the railroading of the story... and you're right, it IS frustrating. On the other hand, the whole situation being frustrating causes it to be memorable. Lankan is the kind of character you love to hate.

He refuses because as he said, it won't accomplish anything. His entire outburst etc. is because his people are in danger from the rogues. His arrest, or even death, will not change their predicament. If Lankan is imprisoned or dies, then that's one less able-bodied rebel gatherer to protect the group.

Actually, Lankan and the rebels giving up would definitely accomplish something, as it would prevent bloodshed and possibly save the lives of the other rebels. Or do you believe Diwaniya would be more merciful if the rebels held out untill the guards find them instead of giving up?

 

Furthermore, Lankan knows that Litalia created the rogues. Has he shared this information with the other rebels? If so, do you really think that they agree with his decision to ally with her? Do you really think that they would stay with Lankan voluntarily?

 

And why should he trust you to take care of the rogues? You're a shaper, like Diwiyana. That said, he may well harbor some homicidal fantasies towards the shapers. Or at least towards Diwiyana.

That doesn't make any sense to me - he believes Diwaniya will somehow be able to deal with the rogues, yet he refuses to believe that the PC will be able to. And he asks the PC to remove the clawbugs, so that they can build trust. Yet when he trusts the PC, he asks him to get the canister instead of helping with the rogues.

Regarding Lankan:

1. First and foremost, Litalia offers him a solution to a problem that he is desperate to have solved, by whatever means necessary.

2. He doesn't understand why Litalia released monsters that she wanted him to defeat. He says he thought it was just a weird shaper thing. If you confront him about it, he admits that he hates siding with her, knowing this, but has no other choice.

3. He sides with Litalia because she hangs a carrot on a stick in front of him. E.g. he is desperate, and unlike Diwiyana, Litalia offers him a solution to his problem. So be blindly trusts her, because he feels he has no other choice.

The point is that he has a choice - more than one in fact.

1. Lankan should realize that the PC is fully able to take care of the rogue problem.

2. The captain of the guard (forgot his name, sorry) tells you to go to Lankan and offer him a deal, as a peaceful solution. Lankan refuses.

 

The conclusion I draw from this is that Lankan is lying through his teeth. He has been lying to the other gatherer rebels and most of what he tells you when you talk to him are lies. He doesn't care about the rogue creations. He just wants power so he will be able to kill Shapers.

I've rarely played guardian and never played agent.

I prefer Shaper and Guardian to Agent, not because I think that they're better, but because often I don't enjoy playing magic users that much...

i don't think that there is so much time between the games, remember that masha, the sholai from the first game appears in the last

Maybe she used the Geneforge to stay young...

Riposte exists as parry improves above level 10 as an extra skill check to avoid taking damage.

Yes, I'm well aware of that fact. I just think it would be fun if the system was changed a bit.

First, the difficulty of any Geneforge game is usually dependent on your build or your tactics, with each game of course becoming more difficult than the previous. With that said, I think Genforge 5 was actually a step back in difficulty, I found it to be easier than GF4 and GF3.

 

I do agree that Melee/Missile combat is weaker than Magic and Shaping, I too would like to see it boosted somehow. My suggestion is that a Guardian has an ability list, just like the Agent has spells and the Shaper has creations. These abilities would work the same way, e.g. the Guardian has a chance to riposte attacks that is equal to Dexterity + Parry + Riposte. Of course, this Riposte ability can't be raised with skill points, only with training or canisters (and maybe as a quest reward).

 

I also like your idea about creations you keep for a long time evolving into better forms. Though I would prefer it if these forms would be a type of creation that you can't get otherwise (e.g Fyora evolves to Warped Fyora, Cryoa evolves to Pit-Bred Cryoa). With that said, I think your ideas for "Perected Creations" would probably make the games too easy.

 

I'm not going to comment on your storyline changes.

IIRC it is stated in Geneforge 2 that Zakary and Barzahl came to Drypeak about 5 years before start of the game. I don't think the gap between GF1 and GF2 would be so large as 20 - 40 years.

 

30 - 50 years between GF2 and GF3 does sound right. The Kratoa-Kel Stoneworks was Barred about 50 years before GF5 and since you meet the guy responsible for the mess in GF2, I believe that at the time of GF2 the Barring of Kratoa-Kel Stoneworks was recent. Of course, this is contradicted by the age of Litalia, who apparently went to Drypeak some short while after the events of GF2 and she doesn't seem to be 70 years old in GF5.

 

Fifth game he's in the Kazg I believe, and once again, he's about a hundred years old, and gives past exposition.

Amena Blade is in Geneforge 5? Can't believe that I've missed him every playthrough...

The Western Rapids quest is indeed in Avernum 5, where you can't find any Fort Remote or Great Cave AFAIK.

 

The messages needed to complete the quest are gained by defeating the enemy on the peninsulas (ogre/nephils) and then reaching the highest point there. There is also a message gained by traveling between the peninsulas, but I'm unsure if this is required to finish the quest.

 

And you need to talk to Duaria for a reward, not Mother Alice.

Putting skillpoints into a creation isn't really worth it since creation stats are capped at 30. Just put those two points into Intelligence but nothing more...

But I've read that even more so than in G2-G4, a melee build is less optimal than a strictly shaper-type build from a powergaming perspective in the endgame - specifically, the recommendation seems to be a Sorceress with mental magic supporting an army of 7 War Tralls.

Powergaming is not necessary in GF5 unless you're playing on Hard or Torment.

 

1) Mental Magic: The Sorceress can obviously pump this stat higher than the Warrior, but does anyone ever really get this stat above 9 anyway? With purchased training (to level 3), 5 invested skill points (to level 4), and the Firesteel Gauntlets (to level 9), my Warrior's already there in the endgame, so I don't see the difference.

I've never used Mental Magic extensively in any Geneforge game, so someone please correct me if I'm wrong: I do believe that Mental Magic actually gets better if you raise it as high as you are able to.

 

2) Essence/Spell Energy: Here's where I'm sure the Sorceress is stronger than the Warrior, and thus able to more easily support a larger creation army. But what exactly are the differences between the Warrior's and Sorceress's essence and spell energy pools in the endgame, assuming the same Intelligence?

A Warrior and a Sorceress has the same amount of Essence at the same amount of Intelligence. The Sorceress has more Spell Energy though. But the Warrior isn't going to cast that many spells, just buffs before combat and healing during the fights.

 

On the other hand, the issue might be simply that the "optimal" Sorceress build ignores player attack stats altogether, thus freeing up more skill points for Intelligence (and therefore lots of Essence for creations).

Yes, if you're going to play a Sorceress, I'd recommend you put most of your points into Intelligence.

 

P.S. Does anyone bother raising shaping stats above 7 (i.e. just enough to get all upgraded creations)? If so, is there a huge difference in creation strength for each level above 7 (e.g. for a War Trall with each additional level of Battle Shaping)?

If you're using Disposable Creations (e.g. absorbing them after clearing a zone) then having high Shaping skills are good, to compensate for the levels that the creations won't gain through experience.

Maybe you should try playing on torment sometime ? Might sway you towards AP items being worth a bit more.

I'm definitely going to try Torment when I get back to the Geneforges. Right now I'm going through the second Avernum trilogy. I actually finished Avernum 4 on Torment with a sub-optimal party, but I'm not sure if I will be able to finish Avernum 5 without turning down the difficulty to Normal.

Quicksilver items are still useful, but there are times when you have to be sure that you have a heal action and an attack action each round so you use an item instead of risking getting enough AP. This is especially true on the hardest difficulties.

Yes, I agree. Though in both GF4 and 5 on Normal I have never been forced to rely on using items for healing.

 

+AP is still useful, the thing is that the items they are on aren't particularly good otherwise. You use the quicksilver chitin or the sandals in G4 and you lose out on quite a bit of other stats/defense. Now compare that to the Emerald Chestguard in G2/3 or the Crystalline Shroud which not only gave +2 AP but were also otherwise the best armors.

 

G5s system of getting the bonus AP only a part of the time is friggin annoying. It still pays off to stack all AP you can get there.

Most of the +AP boots you make in GF5 are pretty good I think... Stacking +AP items might be useful if you're playing a Shaper type or an Agent type, but my argument here is that Melee types get a better deal with other types of equipment in GF5, maybe in GF4 as well.

In the early Geneforge games the +AP items were incredibly useful if you were an Agent or Guardian, perhaps even if you were a Shaper. But with the changed AP system in Geneforge 4, the usefulness of +AP items was IMHO diminished. In Geneforge 5 with various nerfings they were even less useful! I played Geneforge 5 as a Servile and found that I was more successful by putting heavier armor than any +AP item.

 

Now, the question is if this is purely subjective or not. As I understand it, armor is less useful on higher difficulties and so far I've only played the Geneforge games on Normal difficulty. I also know that when playing an Agent/Infiltrator there are effective "Glass Cannon" builds with Quicksilver items that are quite effective on any difficulty.

 

What's your opinion on Quicksilver items in general? Specificially in Geneforge 4 and 5? Specificially on Hard and Torment difficulties? I'm curious to know.