eaintree

I've wandered all over Avernum (using the character editor there's no reason to do things in any kind of sequential order). I have the 4 highest level arcane spells, from X in the Tower of Magi, but I don't have several spells of lesser level -- Lightning Spray, Blink, Summon Aid, Howl of Terror, Cloak of Blades. Where do I pick them up, from Erika?

Also -- since I've done everything out of order, I learned the Remove Barrier spell from the ghost (or whatever it was) in the islands before I learned it in Fort Emerald. I already had 1 level of it when I got to the Fort so was only able to buy 1 more. Am I stuck with the spell at 2nd level?

I've cleared the cave, I know there's a hidden switch somewhere that eventually leads to an altar to purify, no idea where the switch is, help me out?

I found them only because I backtracked to an older thread that mentioned the "U" command. Without that I could've looked at the spots for an hour without seeing the switches.

Ok, now I'm in... and I'm still stumped. I've gone through all of the area that I can, there's the pentagram that when you step on it, just says "you feel a slight breeze"... I'm looking at a map that says there's a door that disappears and you should go "through the hydra lair to find a secret way in." The hydra lair on the map I've been through a couple times now, nothing. No disappearing/reappearing door. I can see the portal on the other side of the wall and a hallway through a window that's inaccessible.

Okay, this is tripping me up too. I've only destroyed 2 altars and I've only found one statue... there ARE 3 altars, yes?

You mean the pipe you have to smoke outside that one random building in Vahnatai lands? I got *a* pipe but haven't gone back there yet; do I need some special pipe to smoke that's prettier than a normal pipe?

The combination of the levers is shown on the map...

I would like to note that when the Slith statues wanted food and I had to leave and row my little boat back to Silvar to GET food because I don't carry items to heal 5 whole hit points, I almost quit the game right then and then. Back to Silvar and back to the castle took like 5 minutes in real time, but the game just crossed a line for me there, from "huge, labrynthine and entertaining" over to eye-rollingly tedious.

Inside the location entrance, all I'm seeing is blank walls. No hidden switches, no cracks to use Move Mountains on. What the shiznit is it?

Here's what I know: I've played and loved most of the Avernum series, played and loved some of the Geneforges, and have played both Avadon games. Loved A1. A2? Don't love it. It has many good points, of course, but there's just too many spots where it doesn't really come together and gel. At the same time, Jeff in his public persona (blogging) talks more and more frequently in this vein of "up with quality/down with mass appeal, down with GTA V and all its ilk", etc.

And though he says this, I somehow feel pretty sure that A3 will have all the same glaring flaws, and I won't really want to play it. And that's a shame, because I've loved the man's work for many years. But if he's just going to go on and on, trudging into the recesses of grumpiness, then I doubt if he'll ever make a great game again.

Also, to be frank, he doesn't trust the opinions of random anonymous internet people, and doesn't put them on the same level as professional criticism.

And as for this -- he hates on professional criticism constantly. With all the meme-skewing vigour of a true internet playa'. So. Whoever he does trust, it's not working well. Or not well enough. Or something.

Yeah, he wrote a blog post a while ago saying pretty much exactly this. Forums also sometimes get really nasty and full of personal insults, which can be pretty exhausting and demoralising to read (although this one's been pretty good lately).

Well, that's understandable. But he seems so hell-bent on championing the cause of better reviews/discussion of games that I don't see why he doesn't *find a way* to make his Forums work for him, rather than them just sitting here providing incidental publicity and nothing else.

Jeff rarely reads his own Forums and then it's mostly right after game release to see bug reports. Even then it's recommended to email him to be assured that he see the problem.

Yes, I gather this. The question is, why not, when he's writing blog posts almost demanding that there be more in-depth critical analysis of video games?

So I completed Yoshiria's loyalty quest: started the fire, reported it back to the Grey Raptors, got the message that Yoshiria was happy with me, and lied to Hand Callan about it. Then I slaughtered everyone in the Grey Raptor outpost because they were a threat to the wellbeing of the Pact. Upon leaving the outpost, I got the message that Yoshiria was upset with me, and at the end of the game she refused to come with me to fight Redbeard. Something about this situation needs to change.

 

(Yes, Dikiyoba knows that Jeff won't find out about this unless Dikiyoba e-mails Spiderweb directly. Dikiyoba just wanted opinions and ideas from people here first.)

Jeff JUST POSTED a blog piece in which he says that video game designers need critics who are willing to pull apart their games to see what works and what doesn't. Why the HELL does he never look at his own Forum?

The other part of this is that many of the people commenting in this forum were anticipating a romance and so were looking for "coming on" and so were biased to interpret "I would like it if we could patrol together" as "I would like it if we could patrol together because I want to have 2.1 kids with you" without even considering the possibility of "I would like it if we could patrol together because you are more competent than the last five people I had to train."

 

To get a truly fair view of the Silke/Rainer interaction, we would need to hear from people who had no idea that there was going to be a romance option in the game and see how many of them even noticed that she/he was open to the possibility of a relationship/hitting on the PC.

If I had had no idea that there would be a romance option, I would have seen it from Silke's dialogue within the first two minutes of the game, because she acts like no NPC in any Spiderweb game ever made before this one. The pregnant pauses before anything much has been said beyond "yes, let's patrol together", the attitude that screams "desert nymph." A blind man would notice the vibes.

Taking equipment you find just isn't story-based. Occasionally Jeff will throw in an NPC who tells you "stay out of my private quarters" and if you go in and take their stuff, there actually are consequences (they won't deal with you anymore), but for the most part you can carry away whatever you find and most of Lynaeus will never notice.

Envoy Jamie cares about one thing, doing the least amount of work so as to not endanger himself. He's new and knows attempting to do anything remotely hostile in Avadon will earn him relocation to the dungeons. So he doesn't attack Yoshiria or take care of destroying the records.

Jaime doesn't say anything about "doing the least amount of work." But even if we accept that to be true, it doesn't have anything to do with what I just posted, above.

Perhaps Jamie doesn't particularly want you to watch your step. Or say anything else to encourage you to keep your guard up.

Look -- there is a difference between their envoy having a good poker face, and a broken subplot. This is the latter.

Here is the text you see before the Raptor fight:

YOU: What if I refuse? (to burn the records)

OPALINE: Then we kill you. Or you kill us. In which case, the other Gray Raptors will blame you personally. I made sure of this as soon as I took Yoshira.

*****

So there you have it. It isn't a case of need-to-know; it's another blood debt, just like Yoshira's.

EVEN SO: The only changes needed would be *extremely* minimal. Whether you do the Raptors' quest and burn all the Avadon records or kill all of them in their base, your only new convo option to Jaime is "I have freed Yoshira from your clutches." Fine. His only response, in either case, is to politely express that he is truly glad that she lived and to assure you that he had nothing to do with that operation. If you burned the records, this works fine. If you slaughtered them all, what he says works fine, and all that's needed to add is some text-commentary after his little speech; Alberich suggested that he needs a new paragraph, but he doesn't even need that; he doesn't even need to SAY anything new.

ALL we need is a tiny bit of narration after his polite response; something along the lines of "his expression remains carefully neutral as he tells you this."

Seriously. Ten words, and it's good to go, but they AIN'T THERE. (And before you say that Jaime's a practiced diplomat who wouldn't even give that much away -- no he isn't; you already made him blush when you asked "are all Raptors as young as you are?")

I guess I make such a point of it *because* I have enjoyed playing most of the Avernum series, some of the Geneforge series and now both Avadon games, over the years. But I've also become more critical about story-issues, because at the end of the day, story's all I care about. Battle strategy is fun but I can leave the nuts and bolts of how to max out a Tinkermage to others; I don't really care that much.

In terms of seamless plot construction, I might give Avadon 1 an 8 or a 9, on a 10 point scale. A2? 6 or 7. Maybe even 5. And that just isn't enough to make me feel like I've been told a story, or get me looking forward to Avadon 3, down the road.

It is possible to kill him before he flees. I just did it myself.

 

He drops a Necklace of Vitality and a Trueshield Wrap, and you even get a little message where it says he was just too damn overconfident.

 

The reward you get from Envoy Jamie is almost exactly the same. You still get a Scroll of Resurrection and a Bracelet of Opportunity. However, it seems you get 900 coins instead of the 800 you get if Duke Gryfyn escaped.

 

That said . . . Even if you killed Gryfyn, and even if Jamie expresses joy that he is dead, future conversations with Jamie still assume that he got away and the Grey Raptors are still looking for him.

Wow. So broken.

Sometimes I do enjoy inventing stories to fill in the gaps -- but sometimes the gap is just too large. As boladefuego said, a plot hole's a plot hole. (A plot hole in a play's no less a plot hole than it is in a novel.) Sure, it wasn't the whole Grey Raptor org that you destroyed, maybe they do like to exaggerate their power and competence...

but it's still just too eye-rollingly large to believe that not a hint of what you did would ever get back to Envoy Jaime. Maybe they're not the God of Assassin-Guilds, maybe they're just demi-gods, fine; they're not INcompetent, or they'd never have gotten to be so feared. However good they actually are, their envoy in Avadon would hear about the total decimation of their base sooner or later, and...

Further, Jaime claims to not know anything about that operation. Just as with Avadon, Grey Raptors are only told what they need to know, and anyway, he's a diplomat. They won't use him to deliver threats.

Spooling out info on a need-to-know basis in ANY such org is usually about mission info, not about threats to the whole organization; if someone firebombed Avadon, every member of Avadon would know, and anyway, the whole Grey Raptor org was informed when Yoshira killed ONE Raptor agent (or if they weren't there's no indication of it); we're supposed to buy that when you take out a few dozen, central Raptor command decides to keep their field agents in the dark? You'd go on their Most Wanted list, wouldn't you? Even if field agents like Jaime were warned not to take you on solo (and of course he's not going to attack you inside Avadon), it makes far more sense for him to be informed and aware of what you did, than to not be.

I don't need much, here -- a few lines of text from Jaime advising you to watch your step (doesn't have to be a threat) would be fine, but come ON. That's a plot hole you could drive a Humvee through.

Avadon also has a long history of letting people who have committed major offenses against it (Claw, Xenephone) off the hook because they're too valuable to be severely punished. Considering that you have (depending on how far into the game you are):

 

 

Almost single-handedly brought down multiple rebel bases, killed the leader of the Wyldrylm rebels, tracked down and killed Miranda, and been the only servant of Avadon to track down Dreless and live...

 

 

...you are most likely in the same boat. Even if your offense is greater than those two, so are your achievements.

/shrug. It only adds up on a default level. Probably gonna be the last Spiderweb game I buy.

It's been mentioned elsewhere that Jeff's sort of running out of steam these days. I think the (IMO) weaker story and quest development and much more linear style of Avadon compared to the earlier Exile/Avernum titles are symptoms of this. Not trying to be harsh; just looking to explain the changes I've noticed in the more recent titles myself. That said, unless Jeff suddenly switches from making RPGs to making first-person badminton games, the man will always be able to count on me as a customer.

Yeah... can't say likewise. Might not even glance at A3 in two years.

Just as they pursued Yoshiria for killing one of their assassins, they are honor bound to kill you for killing more. Part of their reputation lies in killing those that kill them in order to prevent their members from being killed so often.

Uh... yes. That's the point. Enjoy Jaime is unaffected/has no new convo options. The subplot is broken.

There are places where if you admit to doing things to Callan and Redbeard, they mention that you will be punished for the actions for Dedrick and Yoshiria's quests, but the punishments are postponed for now in order to deal with Dheless. They do mind, but right now isn't the time to deal with it when Avadon needs even Hands of questionable loyalty.

Well, no. When you confront Redbeard below Fort Foresight he doesn't even mention it. You do not even, as you do in A1, get the option to argue the right-and-wrong of your party's various beefs with Avadon. There is no indication that what you did will have any consequence in the long run, if Redbeard stays in power.

*

Fun n' games aside, my post above about Yoshira's quest is really my last word on the subject.

No. And there really should be in A2; your party should start to mistrust you if you tell her that you went to find gold for Alcander, that you slaughtered mercenaries who were nominally loyal to Avadon for Dedrick's sake, that you SET THE FIRE in Avadon's basement -- for that last one they'd obvs. send you to the dungeons yourself -- you AND Yoshira -- as soon as they even suspected that you did it, in the reality of that situation; there are points at which the seams in the story Jeff scripted really show, and that's one of them.

Actually, would they? With rare exceptions, Avadon doesn't really seem to do imprisonment for crimes, only to get information out of people -- and you've just made a full confession, so what information can they usefully get out of you? Seems more like a "kill you or let you go" situation from Avadon's perspective, and you're too useful to kill.

Okay. Let's consider this.

All of the other companion quests, and all of the party's side-quests in the first game, fall into a grey area concerning what's good for Avadon. Avadon *may* be willing to write off Xenophon as collateral damage for what happened to Khalida, and write off the Claw as collateral damage for what happened to Sevilin. They may think that Nathalie's drake and Yannick's lust for ancient magic are just a waste of time. They may have always known that Shima might take it on himself to avenge the Threespear clan (they knew who he has when they made him a Hand), they may chalk up Dedrick's slaughter of the mercs as inevitable, because Avadon can't officially sanction their actions or even their existence, really. They may be indifferent to Jennell taking out a corrupt Shaman because it's an internal Wyldrylm matter. They may roll their eyes if Alcander wants to play Tomb Raider.

They may be willing to overlook all of that, let all of it slide, because all of it, from Avadon's perspective, at least pays lip service, cynically, to principles and to fighting the good fight for truth and justice.

This does not. You just destroyed a major portion of Avadon's HISTORY. This is not a matter in which Avadon can plausibly grant you the latitude of a free pass. This isn't about just blackmail options -- if you let the fire creature destroy everything, then you've created incalculable gaps in the knowledge that the institution of Avadon can find about itself. They do not have the information backed up on thumb drives. If Avadon were a tabletop D&D game and you did this, your choices would be obvious: keep your culpability secret forever, or leave and spend your life on the run, or join up with Dheless. No GM would be able to say that Avadon *doesn't really mind* because you're useful. Because if you'll do THIS, then how can they know that you'll ever follow a single order, ever again? How could they know that you weren't in Dheless' pocket from the start? Dungeon scrying would be the *least* that would happen.

Or shall we say that if you beat Craftmaster Nicodemus unconscious with a baseball bat, dragged him to the dining hall and beheaded him, Proteus would just mildly ask you to not do that sort of thing again? Would Redbeard just shake his head and advise you to keep a diary?

In a well-made game, nothing happens in a vacuum. In Avadon 2, plenty of things happen in vacuums. Which means, ultimately, that they don't really happen: they just kinda-sorta happen; you can accept that they happen if you don't give them very much thought.

...that if you've slaughtered the entire Grey Raptors clan, word would make its way back to Envoy Jaime, and he would... be irked? Have some reaction? No longer give you quests?

There are just so many of these little storytelling drops, and cumulatively, they add up to feeling that I really don't need to invest my time in a second full playthrough.

I also don't understand why the endgame text tells you that "the Grey Raptors eventually tire of having their envoys killed" if you choose to do Yoshira's quest and satisfy them.