Thaluikhain

Far from being an expert of Dadaist art, but rejecting "the 'reason' and 'logic' of bourgeoisie capitalist society" specifically surely doesn't have to mean rejecting reason and logic altogether.

Thumbing your nose at someone's ideas of reason and logic is often a way of saying that they don't have a monopoly on it, that what they claim is logic and reason might not be the only way of looking at it.

They don't need to.

Still not with you on this. How does being a few miles closer to the mantle mean you have more iron available?

Also, I think that perhaps Jeff underestimates just how much iron is on the surface of the earth's crust. Seriously, there is a lot of it.

Eh, no reason that should be true of Ermarian, or Avernum in particular, though.

The mantle consists primarily of nickel iron, which is responsible for the Earth's magnetic poles.

Sure, but it's not like the people of Avernum are digging all the way down to the mantle to extract minerals, is it?

Avernum as a whole is not anywhere near Empire, Shaper, or even Pact power

Indeed. While it is certainly true that the average Avernite is a lot stronger and more skilled in combat than the average surface-dweller, the flipside is that Avernum is basically frontier land, even by Valorim standards (compare the space between and number of settlements bet. the original A2 and A3). Almaria, the most populated city, is basically like a medium-sized town to the surface In addition, Avernum suffers from a severe shortage in certain important resources, such as ferrous metals. Which really doesn't make a whole lot of sense, to be honest. You have large volcanic zones-- those would be full of iron ore. Not to mention that the mantle is made mostly of nickel iron, which Avernum just so happens to be situated a LOT closer to than the surface.

Not sure being closer to the mantle would help much. In any case, if Avernum short of ferrous metals, or the people or Avernum? Perhaps they don't have the resources to exploit what is there very effectively.

(Also, do we know if metallugry works the same in Avernum as in the real world? Giant caves nations can live in requires a lot of differences)

Oookay folks, so then I toss you this: could the personalities that wield the power in the world of Avernum ever put their own fights aside and unite against the Shapers and the Pact? This is a question for all 3 game worlds, of course.

By default, yes. If the Shapers/Pact attacked the different powers of Avernum, by default they are united(ish) against them. It is something of an understatement to say that the UK, US and USSR had problems getting along before and after WW2, but being at war with the Axis powers meant things were different during.

Of course, this requires the Shapers/Pact to be sufficiently powerful to threaten them all, and foolish enough to attack each at the same time.

Hmmm, IIRC, Exile was the only games to use monsters that were more than one tile, though this would be unlikely to affect a PC showdown unless someone had a hacked Soul Crystal. I can never remember how big monsters work with spells effects, though, can you hit both tiles for a giant with venom or death arrows or put it inside a fireball and they get twice as affected? Don't think so, but not sure.

Also, Exile being a 45 degrees to later games...there might be consequences to this, but can't think of any off the top of my head.

An Exile3 party will have 6 characters, as opposed to 4 in an Avernum3.

Also, Exile has a greater variety of magic spells...I don't know if they max out as more powerful, however.

(They also use a more intuitive interface, and don't have to be close to each other to end combat, also only take up one space when not in combat mode, if that helps)

The Empire has serious competency issues. In E3, for example, each of the 5 monster plagues was being mishandled badly until the Surface Explorers turned up. The Dervish in Kriszan wasn't mch concerned with the Slimes, the Anama in Shayder were sorta on the ball, but were busy dealing with the symptom and had alienated all the wizards, including the one whose help is needed to deal with the cause. You have to bribe an official in Sharimik to get the Troglodyte mission. They've got a successful Empire general fighting the golems, only the officials in Gale won't have anything to do with him and just hide in their city.

This is not an entirely fair assessment. The plagues occurred in Valorim, which is frontier land with a limited number of Imperial soldiers. We're more or less told (not in exact terms) that the Empire is stretched, incompetent, and indifferent on Valorim, which makes it an easy place for free spirits to live in (relatively speaking, of course), and even mages can study in peace, without government approval, in out-of-the-way places. (Had this not been true, then the story of A3 would have ended very early)

True, I was judging the whole Empire by Valorim there.

Also, while working on the up-and-comping bullet-point comparison, I realized something with quite nasty potential.

In order to make crystal spirals, as well as shaped and puresteel metals, the Shapers need to purify them in chemical plants with highly toxic persistent environmental pollutants (likely culprits including arsenic and mercury, along with other heavy metals and caustic chemicals)

Disposal is a serious issue in the series-- we see poorly ventilated areas with stacked, leaking drums all the time.

Finally, these plants (at least in G1 and 3) are built over/next to rivers. There is some serious potential here for sabotage. We see in G1 just how devastating a leak can be (though in this case it was more like a meltdown)

Considering that the plants seem to be located in inland locations close to rich mineral sources, upriver, and considering that large towns and cities are typically located at or near the mouths of rivers... Well, you see where I'm going with this. Handling of this toxic material over long distances would not be necessary due to the reasons I listed.

You could also have someone sabotage the plant, with G1-level devastating results (this would require a lot of planning mind you-- the staff at the plant would have to be stretched thin, for one)

Ah, this could be an issue, yeah. Though, don't know how much mercury or arsenic in the water is a real problem...it'd be more than we in the 21st century like, but in places like Victorian London the people would drink from very polluted water and the city still worked.

Oh...the Mutant Giants the Empire has, are they evidence of some sort of shaper like magic used by the Empire? In of itself they aren't important (an individual Mutant Giant is pretty nasty, but they seem to be very rare in the scheme of things), but it means that the Empire has some understanding of that sort of magic, which might be useful when dealing with a culture that uses it so much.

In other words, percentage-wise, the losses are about tied-- as far as forces, there are probably 10 to 20 times more empire soldiers than there are Shapers + outsider soldiers. I don't understand why I have to keep emphasizing this. The Empire spans an entire planet, with partial exception to Valorim. AN ENTIRE PLANET. The Shapers only span a single continent + a few tiny islands. Even with a (very likely) Sholai alliance, that probably wouldn't make up more than two thirds of the planet-- and the Geneforge world is sparsely populated compared to the Empire.

Er...are there actual numbers for how big the continents are, and how many people live in each, though? Otherwise, this is just speculation, isn't it?

No they don't. Teleportation is, as you say, limited, both in range and number of passengers. Shapers don't need to be anywhere near a battle, and either way will definitely be guarded. Shapers are also formidable combatants all on their own. Teleportation is also not particularly given towards assassination - the Empire isn't playing Dishonored, here, there are big flashes of light and you have to do a whole magic words spell and [censored]. Teleportation is an asset the Empire has, but it does not allow for the kind of advantage you're imagining.

Hmmm...in E3, there is that wizard near Fort Emergence that, by himself, can teleport your party to the gates of any of the 5 major cities on that continent.

IIRC, there is also a supply room in Sharimik that when you go into it, gets attacked by a bunch of troglodyte commandos who teleport in.

Of course, the obvious problem with that is that Sharimik and rooms within it don't move about, whereas a Shaper might not be wherever you aimed your teleporter when you use it. Also, can you teleport out again? Word of Recall might be handy, I guess.

However, a system of teleporters would massively help communications, you'd not have to have people acting as couriers walking all over carrying letters anymore, which the Empire used a lot in E3 (but maybe for less important stuff).

The Shapers have a distinct aerial advantage. Wingbolts can definitely fly. Vlish and Gazers can sometimes fly. Drakons can theoretically be made to fly (G2 Awakened).

Oh, that's a really big advantage, yeah.

When it comes down to everything, I guess it depends on how you use the strongest traits you have.

Good point. Not just the strongest traits, though.

The Empire has serious competency issues. In E3, for example, each of the 5 monster plagues was being mishandled badly until the Surface Explorers turned up. The Dervish in Kriszan wasn't mch concerned with the Slimes, the Anama in Shayder were sorta on the ball, but were busy dealing with the symptom and had alienated all the wizards, including the one whose help is needed to deal with the cause. You have to bribe an official in Sharimik to get the Troglodyte mission. They've got a successful Empire general fighting the golems, only the officials in Gale won't have anything to do with him and just hide in their city.

If they were properly led, they could have done with those plagues themselves (not sure about the Alien Beasts, they might have tried their best with that one). Of course, then there would not have been a game, but the mismanagement of the Empire seems to be a big, long running theme. Now, I might be being unfair, and the set up was just impossible to run well (due to various reasons that aren't specified), but in any case, serious problem for the Empire.

As an aside, how secure was Avernum against local problems like hostile sliths/hephils et all at the time? If the Empire was smarter and better informed, it could have weakened Avernum's ability to resist them, rather than trying to do the work itself.

The Empire hated Nephil and Slith even more than it hated the human Avernites. The hostile Slith and Nephil (the vast majority, anyhow) would hate the Empire too much to ally with them, and they're not stupid enough to wait until the Empire turns on them, next, to fight them. Esp. the savage Nephil, who have not forgotten about the Empire's genocide on the surface.

Have all the Slith and Nephil groups met the Empire, though? I had thought they were a collection of separate and fairly isolated groups.

In any case, without an actual alliance, it would be in the Empire's interest to weaken or isolate an area of Avernum under threat from Nephils/Sliths or others.

Anyway, this doesn't mean the Vahnatai did everything - they just turned the tide in a war of attrition. Avernum might have lost without Vahnatai assistance, but it would have been a pyrrhic victory for the Empire.

Possibly, though that's not my reading of it at all.

As an aside, how secure was Avernum against local problems like hostile sliths/hephils et all at the time? If the Empire was smarter and better informed, it could have weakened Avernum's ability to resist them, rather than trying to do the work itself. If it was really o the ball, it'd actively court them as allies, though this isn't something they are ideologically in favour of. Alternatively, depending on where they invaded they could potentially cut chunks of Avernum off from each other, and leave them to fend for themselves, but this doesn't seem to be part of the plan.

No, that is incorrect. I already stated the reason why they lost. It wasn't due to distance, it was due to unfamiliar territory, which is stated outright in the game (at least in the original + remake demos, which is as far as I've gotten) to be a huge disadvantage. Empire soldiers are not familiar with the hazards of Avernum. They are not accustomed to fighting in caves. Their eyes have not adapted to years/decades/a lifetime of living in dimly-lit caverns. Were it not for this, then the Empire would have swept through Avernum like quickfire.

Er, in the intro to E3 it says "Exile was outgunned and outmanned. The Empire War was thought lost until Exile found an ally. The alien Vahnatai joined you and turned the tide. The Empire was expelled".

Possibly later games have retconned this, though.

Take E3/E4 for example.

 

Wait, there was an Exile 4?

Well, I mean BoE, in that it was the Exile game that came after 3. Though, in retrospect the Avernum games don't seem to use that numbering so I should stop calling it that.

Well, for starters, you can just go in a room the fire hasn't gotten into, and close the door. Or better yet, duck into the basement. So speaking of WW2, I guess it's a bit like an air raid.

True, was thinking more of defending a town by putting secret doors around everywhere or something to limit the spread, or diagonal walls. Actually, that'd be easy to implement in a game, to make a town with Quickfire defences stand out a bit.

(Doors quickfire burn wooden doors? I mean, in the game it doesn't affect terrain (that I've seen), but does it work like normal fire, or like magical fire that only burns animals?...and Filth Factories, I guess)

Now that I think about it, there's a lot of parrels between the two. The United States are the Avernumites, originally belonging to the Empire but developed their own identity. Britain is of course the oppressive Empire, with king George as Hawthorne himself. They fight a long war over a thousand miles away over seas rather than a thousand miles down. America 'wins' by being a pain in the rear and the Empires leaves in a huff. In the end, years later, they become good friends.

 

Guess that makes the French the vahnhati.

Well, the British Empire wasn't nearly as oppressive (to the European settlers in the US) as the Empire, or as it is often made out to be.

OTOH, while everyone remembers the British sending prisoners to Australia, it's generally overlooked that they also sent them to what is now Georgia in the US, but had to stop after the War of Independence.

In which case it's also a much harder task. Magical barriers are not effortless to create, not even for the Vahnatai; and this task would require creating barriers over a very large space, in a short period of time, with rather greater precision than the Avernum barriers required. Furthermore, not all magical barriers can survive Quickfire, as we know from the original Crystal Souls, so economizing on barrier strength might not be an option.

 

Also, you're assuming that there are no mages in the fort with the ability to dispel barriers. That's certainly possible, but probably not a given.

Fair enough...I wasn't saying I necessarily thought this would be a good approach, just that the method as given by the poster seemed to leave no witnesses.

As an aside, what defences can you have against Quickfire, and how easily could they be implemented? Because you'd need to put them everywhere to stop this method of attack, which might cost you more resources than the actual attack does, assuming the enemy to be capable of this.

Years of preparation, yes. If you're talking about a conflict where one side and only one side has years to prepare offenses before the other side even knows they're being attacked, then yes, sure, that could be done. But the Empire can do the same thing. Don't doubt that -- they are the only nation in this thread that actually has constructed a functioning mass teleporter.

Well, I was thinking of something like the Normandy Landings in WW2, planned for years in advance, everyone knew an invasion was coming sooner or later, just not exactly when or where, only if the Allies had been able to invade Germany instead of France. Even if you know your enemy is building a teleporter, if it's far from the front lines (as it should be), it can open a new front sooner or later. Failing that, just being able to move resources through your own territory quickly would be a lot better than marching soldiers across a continent.

Huh...what's going on in that Filth Factory screenshot? There's a demon and lots of random stuff on the floor.

Anyhoo, going to go out on a limb here and say that the mechanics aren't that important. Take E3/E4 for example. There's no point taking double handed weapons that aren't pole weapons, and the halberd is always best. There's no point taking single handed weapons that aren't edged weapons, and the broadsword (or waveblade if you can find it) is always best...except if you can find weird magic stuff. There's no point to lots of the spells, you won't actually use them. Lockpicking is useless because you have the unlock spell, archery and throwing weapons almost useless. Shortly after starting the golems or alien beast quests I get fed up and use the editor to give maxxed stats and multiple pachtar's plates and rings of magery.

Despite that, though, the game was a lot of fun. Sure, a lot of little things could be done better, but the game was simple and easy to use, and for the most part not annoying. For example, press the End Combat button and combat would end. I don't have to get the party back together first, which seems like pointless musiance to me. Sure, you can use that for your own advantage (did that a lot in the sewers of Shayder), but it's just much more convenient. Also, I like games that use the same old boring set up that most programs of Windows seem to use, because it's functional and user friendly.

IMHO, an easy to play game, with good worldbuilding and story and enough interesting weirdness and gimmicks can have loads of broken non-essential stuff and get away with it.

Quickfire is pretty obviously not normal fire to anyone watching it burn and expand rapidly. At the same time, given a fort full of people, I have a hard time believing that at least one person wouldn't manage to escape. And then tell others what happened. The in-game evidence is that Quickfire expands at about the same speed that people move, not faster.

True, but sealing everything in with magic barriers was specified.

Teleportation isn't free. It takes immense energy and magical exertion. The only examples we've actually seen of anything being teleported in large numbers have involved (1) truly immense expenses, (2) laboriously constructed, fixed teleportation apparatuses at both the entry and exit points, and (3) fragile apparatuses that are easy to damage, and can cause catastrophic damage if they do. It's not even remotely as simple and flexible as it is painted above.

Sure, only, transporting an entire army, plus supply trains across entire continents isn't simple either. As an aside, presumably Rentar Ilhrno teleported all the stuff to make the monster plagues up to the surface.

I'm not thinking of suddenly deciding to throw an army at people, rather, if Fort Emergence or the Slime Pit were the beachhead for an invastion. It'd take massive amounts of preparation, sure, but could be done, and be very useful.

And while hey-here's-a-Phoenix-Egg might work once or twice, I think any of the powers on the list would adapt and come up with some kind of a defense.

How would they know what had hit them, though? People would just walk to a fort and discover everything has been destroyed by fire. Wouldn't be immediately obvious what had happened.

Personally, I think teleportation is a game winner, but not as a weapon. It eliminates the need for supply trains, and allows you to attack wherever you want whenever you want. Point at a map and choose where you want the front line to be, and you have all the logistics you need. Bypass enemy fortresses, don't bother with roads, and have all your forces in place before the enemy knows they are under attack. Sure, once you spread out the old fashioned way from where your teleported you run into the old problems, but you've got a serious headstart that way.

As an aside, in E3, as well as the big teleporter to Upper Exile, there was that wizard near Fort Emergence that could teleport you to the main cities, and in Sharimik, a bunch of troglodyte commandos teleport in and attack a supply room, IIRC. Not to mention the Cult of the Sacred Item.

While we are onto Vahnatai shaping, can't they do it anonymously again? Don't declare war, just have a convenient monster plague attack your enemies? For that matter, Erika was a suspect for that, could she have actually done it?

Ah, thanks, that makes sense.

Oh, is there a way to set the locations you end up in when you leave a town from different directions to be in different outdoor sections? For example, Fort Emergence in E3, the north exit is in Valorim, the south in Upper Exile. Cause I played around with one of those 3x1 towns straddling the border of two sections to avoid the max 8 town entries per section thing (though admittedly not for long) and didn't get it to work.

Now that I think of it, I can't think of a town in another BoE scenario which had town exists in different sections. The Valley of Dying Things had at least 3 ways to get from the underground caves back to the surface, but, IIRC, each was part of a multi layered dungeon.

Interesting question, the logistics of living underground have long interested me. Though, you really need lots of magic or avoiding asking certain questions to make it work.

Given that vegetation exists underground, though, cave cotton makes as much sense as cave wood. Likewise, there are some mosses IRL (above ground though) that, until recently, got used for all sorts of things.

But yeah, explaining all this stuff really helps the worldbuilding, IMHO, much more than the politics and a dozen different types of humanoids. Loved the item descriptions in E3.

Oh, did you go back to the ruined crystal and pick up some of the pieces as evidence? This isn't essential, and, IIRC, there's no game benefit to doing so (not like finding Erika's rune which lets you talk to he, which lets you buy spells from her), but it's part of the story.

Start by talking to an innkeeper in Shayder south of the Anama temple...I think you buy a round of drinks, and they offer to tell you a secret. Then you get a side-quest, and meet some people at the end of it that can help you with various things, including Blackcrag. It's fairly straightforwards from there on.