Ming

Quote: Originally written by ef: And I don't agree that the new animations are more realistic and have more depth. Instead I wondered why they appeared to be so flat and lacking 'presence', until I went to the graphics folder. The lack of moving feet in Avernum 4 is something that bugs me a little compared to Geneforge 4, but I was more referring to the depth of the overall graphics, not just the characters. Compare these 2 screenshots: http://www.avernum.com/avernum5/images/Avernum5HissingPot.jpg http://www.spiderwebsoftware.com/images/Nethergateres/screenshots/NGateAethdoc.jpg The top one looks to me like a game I would gladly recommend to anyone of any gaming background, while the latter is more for "retro" gamers like me. It's really hard to say that the old engine looks better, and this is coming from a guy who loves his Nethergate. Since the new game looks like the first of these 2 screenshots and if it has some of the gameplay feel of Geneforge 4 with added Avernum flavor, then I will be playing Avernum 5, and gladly.

When "ppl" write in complete sentences and paragraphs it's easier to understand them. While I think I successfully translated your individual lines of "text speak", I can't wrap my brain around your point. Do you talk to people in person like this? I'm not bashing here, just curious. Try typing like you actually speak and I'll be able to respond to what you're trying to say.

Quote: Originally written by wary wanderer: Quote: Originally written by Argyll: The only game I haven't enjoyed is Netherworld. The graphics are too tiny for these old eyes. The new Nethergate:Resurrection iteration allows for full-screen graphics, which should make things easier on tired eyes... Maybe he's talkign about overland travel where your group becomes tiny little icons. And the game defaults to full-screen for me, I casually looked for the window mode for a few seconds (after reading about it in the RPG watch interview) and didn't immediately see it so I've just kept playing fullscreen.

Quote: Originally written by DanielJacksonMPC: To Ming(I'm not quoting because the quote system on this type of forum is confusing): It's not that I'm complaining about the graphics being animated or being still...I'm hardly one to think less or more of graphics either way. By intergrating the Geneforge engine, you also make it very Geneforgish. Look, if Jeff had wanted to make a new engine that looked nicer, I wouldn't have as much of a problem with it. He basically took Avernum's style and replaced it with Geneforge's style. That was the big issue...that was the problem. Not that it was new graphics so much as that it was the graphics and style of another already established and completely different game series. In the same interview link I posted above, Jeff said he didn't expect people to play all of his games. From reading the forums here I know some people are buying Geneforge or Avernum exclusively. You've played a lot more of Jeff's games than anyone stumbling onto Jeff's site for the first time in years, so you are hyper-aware of the similarities and differences in his games. Do you consider the Geneforge engine inferior? From reading your original post, it seems that you actually quite like Geneforge. So would you deny the pure Avernum player who refuses to touch Geneforge due to a less traditional fantasy-type story - the "better" engine? I think Jeff is seeing it this way. He just wants to use the best engine whenever possible. At least that's what I gathered from his interview regarding Nethergate. If time had allowed, he would have used the Geneforge engine for Nethergate. And now, well, with Avernum IV having been on that engine for some time now, I don't even think we can fairly call it the "Geneforge Engine" anymore. Jeff wants to build games. If he had another employee working as hard as he does developing, then maybe he could afford to co-develop two unique engines. But I'm going to guess that is not the case. One more fact to consider. Since I have only extensively played Nethergate: Res (and an old Exile game long ago) I noticed a lot of the same graphics carried over. Like leather armor in Geneforge 4, for instance. The items look awfully similar. So I'd think that would make it even easier to keep that Avernum feel you miss...? Perhaps I saw similarities where you see differences. One thing I'd like to see is newer character portraits in Avernum! I mean, 5 games and they still have that dude with the goatee in every screenshot? Heck, if Jeff will pay me a buck or two if it makes him happy, I'll bust out my old art skills and draw him some new portraits! BTW, have you tried Nethergate: Res (I know you played Nethergate at one time)? What do you think of the way he "polished" the BOA-style engine? Do you see any improvements? Maybe if enough people ask for it he'll do another game on the "classic" Nethergate: Res engine.

Quote: Avenum isn't just the caves. It isn't just the basic PC graphics we've come to associate with it. It isn't just the Vahnatai, or the cities, or the Empire. It was the stillness of the graphics, the way they were static. Somehow I knew it was leading up to this. One of your big reasons for disliking Avernum 4 is that there is more animation, more depth in the graphics, and more "realism"? I mean, I'm all for retro, believe me, but it almost sounds like you're arguing Ultima 6 Engine should have been used rather than the Ultima 7 Engine because that's what you are used to. (Now if we're talking Ultima 8...well...I could understand) I've played for a half hour or so on the demo of Avernum 4 and Geneforge 4 and if anything I was disappointed in the "floating feet" syndrome. Even the graphically inferior Ultimas of the early 1990's had moving feet, if memory serves. Static characters that hover over the terrain is something I usually associate with early attempts at RPGs in Windows - the Visual Basic types, or just less impressive efforts than Jeff's recent ones. Take "Dungeon Odyssey" for instance: http://www.malfador.com/domain.html . Or really old pre Times of Lore Origin stuff of the black screen / white characters variety. I remember being disappointed by the newfangled RPGs that came out for Windows in the early 1990's, when I saw that in some ways the graphics were actually inferior to my Commodore 64's! Sure, they were "clean" and less pixelated, but they lacked animation and good sounds. Is it possible that you've just played so much on one engine and fell in love with it that you're inflexible to a new environment? I guess I want to hear more concrete examples of how this affects gameplay. Does the Geneforge engine slow things down, for instance? Where is the negative to having "less static" characters? Quote: captivates you in a way Gene doesn't. While he doesn't let you decide the flow of the story, he does create epic tales of intrigue and amazement...stories full of battles and wars and grudges of powerful races you just do not want to mess with. I can't really comment on that aspect of the differences. Can you pin it down some more? Does Jeff skimp on the room and location descriptions because of the nicer graphics, for instance? Remember also that in a recent interview Jeff said that the old BOA engine could only handle 800x600 resolution --- you can't keep doing that forever with the way people's monitors keep growing, not unless you are aiming for retro. I'll agree with one part of that problem --- I think Jeff faces a dilemma there. One the one hand his games DO attract retro gamers. So how much can he improve his games and modernize them before turning people off? Anyway here's the quote I was thinking of: Quote: RPGWatch: I believe you are using the Blades of Avernum engine – why this engine and what are the pros and cons? Is there a danger using the BoA engine will homogenise Nethergate with Avernum but without offering, say, the improved resolution or animations of your latest two titles? Jeff Vogel: It was a very tough call going with the older engine, but the truth is that it would have taken too long to adapt the game to the Avernum 4 or Geneforge engine. We'll sacrifice some to adapt this game we love to the newer market, but there is a limit. It already took more time than we expected as it was. But the Blades of Avernum engine is pretty good. It's got a good and smooth interface and I really polished it for Nethergate: Resurrection. My main regret is that it can only support 800x600 resolution. But you can play the game in the window, which makes it nice for casual gamers. http://www.rpgwatch.com/show/article?articleid=53 I'm not saying you're wrong in your assessment, I'd just like to hear a more convincing argument beyond "its too animated!". If you mean the way the story plays out is more like Geneforge, then that seems more of a valid point to argue. I think Iffy has a point in that BOA is out there for anyone who likes the retro graphics to keep playing with forever, all we need are more scenarios.

Quote: Originally written by Tyranicus: Did you read my posts at all? It does work with 10.5. I thought you were still on 10.5 Beta. I see that you are using a more recent built. I've seen many things reverted in beta builds, which is why I commented. But I'm not a Mac user so I can't say whether or not that kind of thing holds true with Macs. Isn't Leopard 9A527 out now? Just to developers, perhaps?

Quote: In my experience raising Berserker skill for your melee guys is a nobrainer, and it's as "playable" as it can be. It increases melee damage like Strength - twice more than weapon type skills or Roman training - and it's cheap. [/QB] I don't doubt that at all, especially for a more rounded character. I was thinking more along the lines of an almost dangerous focus on Berserker (and maybe one other like Endurance) to the detriment of other abilities/skills like Melee Weapons, or in lieu of where you might put your points into a more generic fighter - in things like Strength or Dexterity. But the way you put it, it certainly seems playable.

Quote: Originally written by Tyranicus: When the Intel version of Tiger was updated to 10.4.8, something was modified in Rosetta which made the Avernum games terribly slow. Jeff is aware of the problem. Whether or not we will see Universal versions of the Avernum trilogy remains to be seen. In the meantime, the games run fine in emulated Windows. Wow, that's really unfortunate considering Jeff put so much time into modernizing these games...just to have an OS revision mess with his work yet again. Let's hope it works in 10.5! - Says Ming who uses Windows but wants as many people as possible playing these games cuz they're so cool.

Quote: Originally written by Frobozz: Quote: Originally written by Jawaj: and it would increase download size a lot. Not if he used the Amiga module formats that older DOS (and Amiga) games used. Jazz Jackrabbit for example has 32 music files for only 3MB of space. Commodore 64-syle SID music, too. 14 Kilobytes(!) for every song from Origin's "Times of Lore", for instance: http://www.lemon64.com/music/sid/Galway_Martin/Times_of_Lore.sid Tiny SID for Windows is 13KB. http://www.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de/~sinsch/TinySid.htm I prefer the SID plug-in for Winamp: http://www.winamp.com/plugins/details/144643 But then I actually think these games would be great with that kind of retro music while others here might disagree.

I thought the same thing but didn't try to unequip it. Perhaps if the graphic or some more obvious description had changed it would have made it easier to tell. Still seems useful, though, if the bonuses stack with the equivalent buff cast spell from your Druids in battle, since I almost always cast that after Shielding.

Anyone else have a couple of "different" stats or even special traits that they hyper-focus on to make a type of character that might not be immediately obvious as "playable" (read: challenging)? How about a Celt Berserker --- unlike Blades of Avernum that has a Berserker class but no such Weaponry skill, I noticed you could really make one via the Berserker skill. Heavy focus on that skill to the detriment of others --- how would that turn out? Maybe Mighty Warrior trait on top of it?

Quote: Originally written by The Mystic: I only order the games on CD. I'll be doing that from now on, too. I upgrade my PC and play around with operating systems too much to keep bugging Spiderweb Software about a reg. code. Besides, 10 years from now if I want to go back and play them, the CD's will always install and play just fine.

Sounds fixable if you could only map a key on your keyboard to act as the mouse button...

Quote: Originally written by Polygnosis: It's Nethergate, and the ambient sounds are based on the area type, not the chapter or party. Caves get drippy cave noises Eek - you'd think I could get the name of the game I've been playing for the last several days straight - I had to edit it, that was so bad. I'll have to try the Genentech series after this. Yep, it's the noises like bats, or rats, or creepy crawlies that I like along with the drippy sounds. I wanted to say where I was but didn't know how without giving away spoilers. Seems it wasn't important. Could also be that I'm using nice speakers instead of junky earphones that makes that dungeon echo effect sound even nicer.

Quote: Originally written by Enraged Slith: Starcraft and Diablo both have an incredible music track. Diablo had a creepy soundtrack in one of the dungeons with what could only be described as....evil babies crying in the background. Really made you sweat those scenes with big meat cleaver guys running after you. I can't remember the Starcraft soundtrack. Nethergate: Ressurection has a pretty good dungeon soundtrack in (avoiding spoilers here) Act (Chapter?) 2 - Celts. Not much music but cool ambient effects. I'm still new to the Spiderweb games so I'm not sure if that's been used in other games before. One of my favorite "ambient sountracks" from when I was just a pre-teen with my Commodore64 was Temple of Apshai, the original, not the Trilogy. It had these low tones and made hums and buzzing notes that added to the effect of a scary dungeon settting. The trilogy had no music that I can recall. Add to that the original Temple and Curse of Ra were set on a black screen with white walls as opposed to the white backdrop and colored walls in the Trilogy, and the Trilogy just felt too....nice to be engaging.

Ouch - after playing I ran into the limitations of First Aid: 1. Cannot be used during combat 2. Can only be used 3 times per day on a character Thankfully Hippocrates can use his own first aid skill on himself. While it is effective when used after combat, and at higher levels will clear other afflictions, you can't hope to rely on it like the heal spell. So....keeping Hippocrates "playable", he will need to split his focus with his Apothecary (Herbal Healing) potion-making skills. Hippocrates - Roman Medic / Apothecary Party tweaked: 1. All-around Centurion (Primary Spear / pole arm use with some basic melee - backup Roman short sword - some Javelin for when distance can't be closed) - Your only real "normal" character, but aside from Spear focus he should spread points amongst every Melee Skill except slings, and every attribute except intelligence, even if you would not. Consider him triathlon man. 2. Anateus (see first post) 3. Hippocrates (see above, replaces Javelin focused pre-created character as a decent Slinger) 4. Druid-wannabe Roman - as in the pre-created, focus on WAR spells, Hippocrates is supposed to supply potions and first aid for most of the healing. Druid provides some back up healing if potions run out or inventory is stripped from characters (no herbs, potions or first aid kits...it could happen) - But will always try to put x2 points into War over Healing. NO ONE BUT HIPPOCRATES CAN HAVE RATIONAL MIND...will make relying on Hippocrates' potions during battle impossible.

Old-skool RPG tunes for your playlist: http://files-upload.com/files/482308/10.MID http://files-upload.com/files/482311/14.MID http://files-upload.com/files/482306/4.MID http://files-upload.com/files/482312/22.MID http://files-upload.com/files/482314/40.MID http://files-upload.com/files/482316/5032.MID

So what music do you guys listen to? Just any old tunes or something more RPG specific? I like these soundtracks: Conan (first Arnold movie) 1492 LOTR trilogy (of course) I also have some MIDI files and game music I play on occasion (some I ripped/extracted myself). I listen to: Ravenloft 2 - Stone Prophet Necronomicon - FM Towns (too obscure, don't ask) Ultimas (MIDIs up all over the place) For hard core retro, see the "music" tab here: http://www.lemon64.com/ - then check the 3rd composer on the list Arnold, Kenneth. Here are a couple for download - choose "download" tab, then download from Aplus (the yellow text), literally took 5 seconds for me): http://www.ocremix.org/remix/OCR00044/ http://www.ocremix.org/remix/OCR00810/ http://www.ocremix.org/remix/OCR00937/ More PC music: http://www.vgmusic.com/music/computer/microsoft/windows/index-gr.html

I might be off, DanielJackson, but "brewing" doesn't require "using" an item, so it still might work. I can't remember using first aid on my own character...? I'd have to go in and try that. So you could do Rational Mind, he'd just stay away from USING the potions on himself, but I had him cut out as a kind of strong medic with some apothecary skills. If he can just use First Aid on himself, then he wouldn't need potions. I guess it depends on what the game designer thinks of potions. Are they "magic"? Or could they be considered herbal remedies / medicines / supplements with near-magical efficacy? Or to take that one step further, the components themselves have "magical" qualities, but the art of brewing the potions could be considered strictly scientific? Obviously the torch, candle, etc. examples of Rational Mind not working don't make sense, but I'm guessing there's no easy way to program around that, and in reality you only need one person holding a torch.

It occurred to me that this is where the Rational Mind "bug" could be a stinker - in Hippocrates' build - Western science over spirituality. But unfortunately the Rational Mind skill seems to work against ALL items, and that would include first aid kits / potions (but not brewing them) if it includes torches, no?

I've read some people going for "singleton" campaigns, but I like my challenges to be in flavor with the setting, so I'll throw out some challenging builds and see what you guys think. The idea is to avoid investing only in the commonly agreed upon "best stats". Also a challenge will be to resist the temptation as the characters level up, to add points to the typical "best" stats, and keep focusing on the "role-play" stats. A point added here or there, for something like Armor Use as the game progesses is allowed. The point is, like a single-character campaign, to focus character builds on a commonly agreed on "weaker" (but not impossible to play) skill focus. Since Nethergate does not have classes, we can make our own. Here are a few examples I came up with: Hippocrates, Roman Medic. Focus on First Aid and Herbcraft. A decent slinger to back up the team. Hardy and healthy (toughness/good health) from taking good care of his own body and drinking herbal supplements - ha). (Edited for playability, see post #9 below) Team make up would be something like this: 1. All-around Centurion (Primary Spear use with some melee - backup Roman short sword - some Javelin for when distance can't be closed) 2. Anateus (see below) 3. Hippocrates (see above, replaces Javelin focused pre-created character - Javelins gimped because they can't be recovered and weigh alot, leave a few Javelns to the All-Around Centurion above) 4. Worldly War Druid-wannabe Roman - as in the pre-created, focus on WAR spells, Hippocrates is supposed to supply potions and first aid for most of the healing. Yeah, you'll actually have to use those first aid kits and herbs you collect more. Antaeus, Roman Wrestler. Focus on Strength, Endurance, Hardiness, Defense. Some points (about half of what is put in hardiness/defense) in Roman Training, melee weapons. Mighty Warrior and Toughness traits. Idea is to have a "tank" character who isn't the best at landing blows but absorbs a lot of pain even when circumstances deprive him of armor - give him armor and he'll be unstoppable! For the Celts: Perhaps some kind of Faerie-Focused Female character with Druid spells appropriate and Faerie Blood/Faerie Familiar Traits. Or a Celtic Beastmaster, a front line fighting character who splits his Warrior skills with Druid Skills in the pursuit of Beast Circle spells (he only takes other Druid skill points in the pursuit of Beast Circle - but you can't blame him for casting the occasional heal spell or whatever he's gathered passively if they're in his list). Armor use strictly limited in favor of Hardiness and/or Defense. Some points of Berserker (Letting the "Animal" loose). Has the Beastmaster Trait, of course. Maybe Faerie Blood to explain his affinity for magic. The hardest part in "role-playing" will be to stick with an axe, for instance if you're playing a "Berserker", even if a fancy sword comes along. Or to stick with your pole weapon/short sword/javelin trio as the Roman Centurion even when a more tempting weapon appears. Or stay in a toga if you're Anateus (ha). That sort of thing. In other words, you can make things difficult for yourself without going Singleton. (Of course, some of the singleton players are going for the "ultimate tough guy" thing, not so much the "challenge" aspect, and certainly not the role-play aspect since from what I've seen of Nethergate it refers to "your group" more than a few times) Any other ideas?

I can still remember all of the C64 Ultima III songs and have a bunch of MIDI files somewhere....so yeah, I can see how music would be good. More "ambient" music is probably better, though - something like the Neverwinter Nights stuff. BTW, anyone notice that when you go outdoors in Blades of Avernum's demo scenario in the Valley, it says "No birds fly overhead, things appear dead" (paraphrasing) that the background sound for outdoors has lots of birds chirping...?

So what's the best Roman fighter "build"? Am I right: Primary Focus on - Strength Endurance Roman Training Melee Armor Use .... etc...? Agree with: 1. Javelins should be recoverable after a battle Just not enough of the Javelins around, and slings do good damage without requiring any ammo. Is a Roman Slinger worth it or are slings gimped at higher levels? Either make them recoverable or have enemies drop more Javelins (I've seen a couple of Goblins drop a handful so far). Recoverable javelins remind me of the scene in Excalibur when Mordred retrieves his javelin from the corpse of some poor Round Table Knight...

I did notice with the editor (got my key today...on labor day!) that you cannot edit away or add the "special skills"....? (Barter / Woodsmanship for Bruce and the Priestess or vice versa)

OK, now I feel lame - I haven't found the "Halls of Learning" yet, but the whole Goblin dungeon turned out to be MUCH larger than I'd expected.