Alberich

I'd agree that the GF5 Trakovites are terrorists. I'm not sure that makes them wrong, however. It's possible to have dodgy methods but still hold good principles. Interesting perspective! Litalia certainly does want to induce fear (of shaping) and use it to change the behavior of a government or civilian population (the shaper council), so she meets the typical statutory definition… But she doesn’t really tweak like a terrorist. The terrorists I know about, whatever they say about the world they want to build, always seem to have a good head of revenge or resentment on. Yes, yes it’s all for a bright tomorrow, but regardless of that those burgeois/imperalists/infidels/Joooos are going to get theirs for defeating us/keeping us down/humiliating us. Kind of like the Avadon character . Litalia, by contrast, has gone through two kinds of crazy and come out calm on the other side. Or at least that’s how she appears; she tells you the blue glow faded and clarity returned after she stayed off the canisters for a while.

He's been to Taygen's headquarters though not to all his locations....and he is in fact on the edge of picking a specific faction to join. Bennhold was a sideshow on his way to doing that.

You'll get his reactions to Taygen in time...best not to say too much just yet though. A huge part of the fun is seeing Blxz's unforced, un-influenced reactions to the moral multilemmas of this game.

Rawal – In Geneforge 3 and 4, you don’t have to shape yourself to be a rebel, but the Rebels themselves do so early and often and encourage the same. The problem with self-shaping is it gives people and other creatures more power while it removes from them all restraint in using that power. Not to mention any healthy sense of self preservation, let alone preservation of anyone else. I didn’t just want to keep my own canister virginity (though I did); I wanted to put an end to all Canister Madness and Geneforgery. A future ruled by tyrants who can shape is bad enough, but a future ruled by bat**** crazy tyrants who can shape is even worse. Since there were only two teams in town, at least as far as I could tell, I went full-on Shaper. With respect to Avadon 2, Alhoon – Given what I said above, it’s not too surprising, is it, that I ended up Trakovite? My only major difference with Litalia is that I’d keep the shaping of unintelligent things (like crops) and dumber creatures. For Blxz’s sake, I’ll cover up the rest:

Alhoon, Bennhold takes up two episodes. Be prepared for the groan-inducingest pun in a Blxz title so far...

Well, if the price of being wrong is, "I get to read an Icelandic saga I hadn't heard of," I can live with being wrong any day! (The ones I know best don’t have supernatural elements at all…they’re acts of violence punctuated by lawsuits.) Valtio – Sort of. The Drakons, as they are so willing to stand and fight, are very destructible…as long as you hurry up and do it before their power grows measureless. Human experimenters of the Barzahl variety are more insidious, but if canisters are hard to make (and completely banned), Geneforges extremely hard to make (and completely banned), and shaping is otherwise very hard to learn, then it’s a lot easier to control than information now. Though you might expect shapers to be more leery of letting their “lifecrafters” operate independently for too long in remote areas in the future. Maybe rotate them into different positions every couple of years and have the Agents check up on them more often.

In combination with the good old PC, who can wipe out the Drakons, the Purity Agent is as totalizing a solution as you can wish for. (And since the Drakons have demonstrated, ever since their first appearance, that they prefer to stand and die instead of retreating, it's pretty effective.) ‘course no one’s plans work quite as intended but you can see what Taygen is aiming for and why, and it is pro-shaper and pro-human. I never heard of a traditional story where a person got attacked by an undead and got diminished skills or abilities as a result. Killed, yes. Turned into an undead, yes. Rendered utterly useless (i.e., put out of the game), I vaguely remember. But I don’t know of any where the undead made you unskillful and less powerful. Yet…that is what RPG players fear, and the result is that even the reckless ones treat level-draining undead with a special loathing and respect. Analogously, real humans may be tempted by wealth and influence, but in RPG’s, personal power is the #1 temptation, so it makes sense for the “tempters” to offer that instead of cash.

It isn’t just a “few rebels”…he is looking for a totalizing solution, a way to wipe out rebellion for good. You can see that in the neverending conflicts of our own day….lots of people want to find the “magic button” that will end the problem once and for all. And in Geneforge that temptation is even greater as the Drakons’ power has grown exponentially with time.

Best line: "No, that's called running away."

As you note, we had a recent thread on that very subject here -- http://spiderwebforums.ipbhost.com/index.php?/topic/22251-who-would-side-with-the-shapers-spoilers-ok/ -- as I mentioned there, I started out sympathizing with the Awkened, but ended up with the Shapers because I refused to use the Geneforge or let myself be shaped. After that I was pro-Shaper ‘til the final game when I ended up a reluctant Trakovite. In RPG’s, live and computer, personal power is always the great temptation…so it speaks well of the game’s design that the Shapers can tempt you with power, and you can find yourself giving in, when your convictions run the other way. It’s like the justification I once saw for having undead monsters in D&D drain levels when they hit a character…not that that fits anything the undead did in legend, but it is the one thing that players are really afraid of. So it’s the one way to get people to roleplay the fact that the undead are supposed to be scary. (I’ve only seen one Spiderweb game…Avadon 2…where you are faced with the temptation to betray your allies for something other than power. And I was impressed though some were not.)

Well, thankye! I may not be a typical viewer; I never watched a let’s play before, and probably won’t again, but GF5 was a very special game and you bring charm to this one. The combination is especially good in this game because the player has so many real choices to make. So I’m not just hearing someone do the same as I did, which might get dull (though in fact a lot of your thinking is similar to my own), but instead I get to hear someone else reason his way through the same challenges. It makes a nice break at the end of the day, while I wind down with a few minutes of a casual game and listen to something from YouTube. Liked the last two…85 was just necessary plot exposition, but 86 left me wanting to see where your new commitment takes you. The War Trall named “Dragon” reminded me of Lord Julius from Cerebus the Aardvark (a 20th century comic one of my pals was deeply into). He kept his enemies confused by calling his security chief the “Kitchen Staff Supervisor”…

I’d never read the context until this conversation so thank you for bringing it up! P.S Enjoyed the soul searching in "A Divergent Path."

I don't think it's silly and I'm glad you made the decision to split the thread (the which, thanks for doing!). That way these forums can be friendly to someone like Xurebx, who is experiencing this most excellent series for the first time, even if he's doing it years after the forum regulars. But I don't see why we shouldn't be able to keep up with Xurebx himself….the first post started with Xurebx partway through GF2, so we could talk about the end of GF1 (as I did); and as he proceeds, we ought to be able to keep up with where he is, something any new reader will surely understand. (And the new reader can stop reading if the thread goes past where he is at the time of reading.)

If you want to see the original context, the Franklin Papers are available online and the letter is here: http://franklinpaper...vol=6&page=238a . Having read it I think the article got the historical context right, but I think you're right on the meaning of the specific phrase. After a long complaint about not being able to get money out of the Proprietors for Indian defense, the final paragraph starts out this way: "In fine, we have the most sensible Concern for the poor distressed Inhabitants of the Frontiers. We have taken every Step in our Power, consistent with the just Rights of the Freemen of Pennsylvania, for their Relief, and we have Reason to believe, that in the Midst of their Distresses they themselves do not wish us to go farther. Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Such as were inclined to defend themselves, but unable to purchase Arms and Ammunition, have, as we are informed, been supplied with both, as far as Arms could be procured..." ....i.e., we the legislature gave them all the help and weapons we could, consistent with our powers, and even under the constant danger from Indian attack, they didn’t want us to assume further powers because they were worried about the encroachment on their liberties. And good on 'em for being that way. Salt of the earth, those boys. (So, come on, proprietors, pony up!) Fascinating if I am reading it right because he is using a negative aphorism to praise someone (the frontiersmen) for not wanting to give up any liberty, rather than criticizing someone else for wanting to do so.

83 is a thoughtful episode and makes me keen to see which way you finally come down. The fact that you have to put so much thought into deciding between these factions is a tribute to Jeff’s design, and I will enjoy seeing how it plays out with you. (In fact, together with some of the voices you do, that is my favorite aspect of the series.) btw, I'm pretty sure the quote you were searching for was this one from Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." The context of this quote is historically interesting: https://www.lawfareb...lin-really-said

Did it? I'd forgotten. If so that leaves some hopes to whoever wants to make a Geneforge sequel in the Warhammer system.... But as it stands it still beats having geneforges around. It takes a lot of canisters before you get to Geneforge-like levels of power and arrogance, so the threat is less. And so the ending at least feels like an ending.

Thank you kindly! I took "Alberich" from Wagner's Ring cycle...the dwarf who fought gods and giants...so I dare say the name's public property by now. You've probably gathered that the drayks are my favorite creations (though "Fafner" is a more traditional dragon name than "Alberich," from the same source)...that said, I'll be delighted whatever you do and however you go. Greatly enjoyed the episode! And I hope other viewers will respect the fun you're having and not spoil anything about Taygen or his faction. Commander Pitzer sounds as if he was commissioned from the ranks...at least I detect a bit of the stereotypical "British NCO" accent in him. btw, for pronouncing "ennui," try "I Get a Kick Out of You," intro section (Which I suspect you'd enjoy anyway -- here's Sinatra: https://www.youtube....ch?v=bRW5dwM7PW0.)

Because it wouldn't really be an ending...the Geneforges would just be waiting for the next ambitious, power-hungry, or angry Shaper or Creation to make himself into a blue-glowing sociopath...and try his brand new creation idea to get revenge or build his own power....and you're back to the GF 2 situation again. Of course you could have an endless cycle of new games that way...

Sure. But it doesn't count when we do it. Anyway, I hope I was able to answer your original question about why anyone would side with the Shapers. How did you end up aligned in G2?

The poster was asking why anyone would side with the shapers, from the viewpoint of someone who hadn't seen the endings. The Shapers had a much longer track record to go by, and the Awakened's method, of defending themselves with "shaped" shapers, is inherently less stable....even if it does last out the PC's lifetime.

The rogue shapers in G2 were more "venal and disloyal" rather than "useless" (he's finished most of G2 so no harm). If I remember their system had been working successfully for centuries, and the suppression of Sucia had also worked just fine, before the first PC showed up. But in any case, if you see the Drakons of G2 (and what they have done and are trying to do) as a threat to all humanity...what are your real options? You have to work with somebody to stop them. It's not enough to say, "You guys failed to protect mankind. So I will help these other guys destroy it." Siding with the Shapers makes sense in that light. As for the Awakened....their goals are noble, but in both of the first two games, you have to let yourself be shaped in order to support them, and they rely on “geneforged” shapers to support themselves. Since the main effect of canisters and geneforges is to make the user arrogant and uninhibited in the use of power…you’d expect more Barzahls every few years, and thus a constant stream of threats.

Xuerebx was tying to go for "spoiler lite" here so I don't like to go further than the stories have taken him.

I agree. But I bet GF2 itself is showing you (or will show you before the end) an answer to your original question....had the Shaper laws been obeyed originally, there would be no Drakons nor any hint of what they are planning to do to the world. That's a reason to at least consider siding with the Shapers, and why someone would think about it. And regardless of that I hope you are having a good time...GF2 was a great game.

Newest has a familiar tongue slip --

You’ve met the Geneforge itself, so you know there are some dangerous forces in the world. If you went full-on canister junkie or used the Geneforge, you also know some of those dangerous forces have the potential to become a huge threat….because they can cause a man to gain enormous power while losing his basic human decency and restraint. (In the later games I went to the other extreme and kept my “canister virginity” for that reason.) What the shapers offer is an answer to that, because they want to forbid the use of canisters and Geneforges, and have the power to do so. As you play through G2 (which is a great game, one of the best SW ever did in my opinion, and I hope you thoroughly enjoy it) and the later games, you’ll see more threats and the question will become: what’s more important, using the power of the Shapers to stop or contain these threats, punishing the Shapers for their tyranny, or something else? The games are so designed that none of the choices before you are ideal, but that is just like life….like having to ally with a real power instead of an ideal one, or having to vote for a real candidate instead of an ideal one. It was the same in G1 – to make the Awakened win, which is morally satisfying, you had to use the Geneforge, which is not. And as a wise troubadour once said – “If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.” That’s about as far as I can go without spoiling.