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Very interesting. Defense is also supposed to affect chance to be hit, isn't it? It's also interesting that you got an average of +1.25 AP out of 7 Quick Strike. My level 1 test with 5 Quick Strike got an average of only +0.6 AP. So either there is a strange and unspidwebby QS effect curve, or something else affects bonus AP as well -- maybe the effect is greater at higher level -- or is it possible gymnastics can give bonus AP? ...WAIT... 13.25 average AP with no boost items, were you HASTED? Detail! If AP boosting works anything like in previous engines that should multiply the bonus AP just like the regular AP. So the Quick Strike effect is closer to 1/9. How many AP-boosting items are there in this game? I am starting to doubt the worthwhileness of investing in Quick Strike at all...

Melee gets quick action and archery doesn't. However, bonus AP (quick strike) will always help archery and will help melee more in focused battles, not so much against regular foes. (Perhaps that's different in Torment, with higher foe hp = more rounds of engagement?) Melee base damage tends to be higher. OTOH, dex (for sharpshooter) has more benefits than strength (for blademaster), and you don't have to pump an unwanted weapon skill either. But the targetting advantage of a bow is huge. I dunno, I'll wait and see how it goes. But I keep thinking of the G3 agent, how putting every last point into battle magic and spellcraft made a monster, whereas simply putting most points there was a lot less effective.

I just re-checked, and Nimber Fingers *does* increase First Aid. My new character with no skill points spent (Custom class) and Nimble Fingers has 2 Tool Use and 1 First Aid.

I just re-checked, and Nimber Fingers *does* increase First Aid. My new character with no skill points spent (Custom class) and Nimble Fingers has 2 Tool Use and 1 First Aid.

Here's another question: the to-hit penalty from armor, does that apply to all attacks or just to melee combat? I know in the past it was just melee, but I have noticed a lot of the manual descriptions talking about things that affect to-hit, to-dodge, or damage for magic and archery, as well as melee.

Here's another question: the to-hit penalty from armor, does that apply to all attacks or just to melee combat? I know in the past it was just melee, but I have noticed a lot of the manual descriptions talking about things that affect to-hit, to-dodge, or damage for magic and archery, as well as melee.

EDIT: Okay, maybe there aren't any missing Well, here's the list anyway. Nephil: Bows, Throws, Gymnastics Slith: Pole Elite Warrior: Parry, Blademaster Divinely Touched: Blademaster, Magery, Sharpshooter Natural Mage: Mage Spells, Magic Efficiency Pure Spirit: Priest Spells, Magic Efficiency Deadeye: Sharpshooter Nimber Fingers: Tool Use, First Aid Fast on Feet: (?) Good Con: (?) Thick Skin: (?) Strong Will: (?)

EDIT: Okay, maybe there aren't any missing Well, here's the list anyway. Nephil: Bows, Throws, Gymnastics Slith: Pole Elite Warrior: Parry, Blademaster Divinely Touched: Blademaster, Magery, Sharpshooter Natural Mage: Mage Spells, Magic Efficiency Pure Spirit: Priest Spells, Magic Efficiency Deadeye: Sharpshooter Nimber Fingers: Tool Use, First Aid Fast on Feet: (?) Good Con: (?) Thick Skin: (?) Strong Will: (?)

I just did some quick testing involving 3 freshly created nephils: one with the Fast on Feet trait, one with 5 points in Quick Strike, and one with both. I did 20 rounds of combat, with the following results: Fast on Feet: AP 8: 10/20 AP 9: 10/20 Average: +0.5 AP Quick Strike 5: AP 8: 12/20 AP 9: 4/20 AP10: 4/20 Average: +0.6 AP Both: AP 8: 3/20 AP 9: 10/20 AP10: 6/20 AP11: 1/20 Average: +1.25 AP However, I have no idea if the effect of Fast on Feet increases with level like the other traits. Can anyone confirm or deny this? My other question concerns Divinely Touched. The trait description claims it makes you "very resistant to damage." Is that true? Is it just a hidden parry bonus, or what? How useful is the bonus? Basically, it now seems that there are at least three traits in competition for each of my PCs: Fast on Feet Divinely Touched Elite Warrior / Deadeye / Natural Mage / Pure Spirit Fast on Feet + Quick Strike seems useful for any character, really, but even moreso when every character can easily get something out of a bow. Quick Strike might be a stretch for mages, but FoF still has potential if combined with +AP items. On the other hand, if I am making a tank, Elite Warrior and Divinely Touched both claim to provide defensive bonuses. Or do I just go all out with gymnastics? While I'm at it, how significant is the armor use effect from Natural Mage?

I just did some quick testing involving 3 freshly created nephils: one with the Fast on Feet trait, one with 5 points in Quick Strike, and one with both. I did 20 rounds of combat, with the following results: Fast on Feet: AP 8: 10/20 AP 9: 10/20 Average: +0.5 AP Quick Strike 5: AP 8: 12/20 AP 9: 4/20 AP10: 4/20 Average: +0.6 AP Both: AP 8: 3/20 AP 9: 10/20 AP10: 6/20 AP11: 1/20 Average: +1.25 AP However, I have no idea if the effect of Fast on Feet increases with level like the other traits. Can anyone confirm or deny this? My other question concerns Divinely Touched. The trait description claims it makes you "very resistant to damage." Is that true? Is it just a hidden parry bonus, or what? How useful is the bonus? Basically, it now seems that there are at least three traits in competition for each of my PCs: Fast on Feet Divinely Touched Elite Warrior / Deadeye / Natural Mage / Pure Spirit Fast on Feet + Quick Strike seems useful for any character, really, but even moreso when every character can easily get something out of a bow. Quick Strike might be a stretch for mages, but FoF still has potential if combined with +AP items. On the other hand, if I am making a tank, Elite Warrior and Divinely Touched both claim to provide defensive bonuses. Or do I just go all out with gymnastics? While I'm at it, how significant is the armor use effect from Natural Mage?

Hiya Kel. *tips hat* Life is good. Edit: on second thought, this deserves a new thread.

2 attacks consistently? I assumed that Fast on Feet was as inconsistent as ever. I remember it providing an extra AP maybe 1 in 3 or 4 rounds -- is it better now? Quick Strike, I guess, is fairly consistent with enough investment?

Why'd you skimp on spells? Easier to just find the level three ones or what?

There's a skill that gives you extre action points? Yow. Yes, that -does- sound useful...

Hmm. So pole weapons are good. I'm a little reluctant to make one of my fighters a halberdier, though, if it involves giving up a shield AND the nephil gymnastics bonus. I smell a slith priest... Vlish: Do you mean Quick Strike? What's the difference between that and Quick Action anyway? I have to say, I love the new First Aid implementation. It brings back the idea of strategizing in order to survive attrition over the course of an entire dungeon, something that Ex/Av never really had, and something I have rarely seen in rpgs since, oh, the late 80's.

So I hear there is a First Aid trainer early on. What other skills have trainers (at reasonable points in the game)? Skills like First Aid which are secondary but still useful are especially nice to pick up that way, and are a nice thing to know about when you build characters.

Hiya folks. Nice to see so many familiar helpful faces in the new game's forum yet again! So I read most of the forum posts while waiting for A4 to download, and I've been playing just for a few hours now. A few things struck me almost immediately (especially after reading tasty vlish et al.) and I'm wondering what you guys think, before I restart with a new party, as I probably will soon. 1. Archery. Archery is really, really good. This is not so much because of the unlimited arrows and better skill/trait support -- though that helps -- but because of the new combat system. Ranged attacks become a tactical JEWEL when attacking reduces the amount you can move by more than half (give or take a haste). The fact that archery is strong, and never runs out, makes my archer feel (and play) rather like an Agent. Except better, because unlike Firebolt, archery seems to work when you are one square away from the enemy -- no need to train an archer in any melee weapons at all. So then I read about how there are four super duper special bows, and I ask myself: is there -any- reason not to give EVERY pc points in archery? I haven't played on Torment yet, so perhaps the damage is less impressive there. 2. Races. Since experience is gained relative to level, as it has always been in the Spidwebverse, and the races and advantages give bonuses that are greater than the equivalent of a few levels of skill points (especially at very high levels) there is very little reason to avoid expensive traits, or races. (That's sort of annoying -- while humans have no advantages, they have 8 icons to the sliths' and nephils' 2.) I can't see any str/dex/int bonuses -- perhaps they are hidden or only show up at higher levels? -- but given the visible or implied bonuses of polearms + resist fire for sliths, and of bows + throws + traps + gymnastics for nephils... I am finding it very hard not make all of my pcs nephils. Bows are wonderful, and I have seen no reason to doubt the utility of gymnastics, either. Certainly it seems better than resist fire, and the polearm bonus, while good, seems less useful than the bows bonus, given that polearms seem to have, once again, just barely failed to be competitive with swords. Will I be running an all-cat party, rrrrrrr? Thanks for your thoughts. --slartucker

Are these the same sets of instructions that claim Essence Shield heals you? I wouldn't take those too seriously. I imagine they were composed before the design of G1 and G2 was finalized, and haven't been touched since then.

Ivory Skull on armor increases your to-hit chance with melee weapons (and possibly missile weapons or spells, I'm not sure)

A thorn bazooka. That's AWESOME. Heh.

Actually, without the trainer it would be 8 1/2. It costs 20 skill points to raises an Agent's Blessing Magic to 9 (it starts at 1) and 16 to raise it to 8. A trainer will only save you the first two skill points. (For a guardian, on the other hand, it will give you eight skill points worth of blessing magic...)

YES really, kuc. I am well aware of the basic three-way division, but a better word for it than "generically" would be "stereotypically." Perhaps you should go look at the original analysis here . Just because the Guardian is presented as "the" melee class does not necessarily mean it is actually better at it.

Actually, the health factor was discussed in that thread from the get-go, though admittedly not with numbers. I think that got defused by D.V.'s recurring exclamations about how easily everything dies on Torment no matter how much health you have Student of Trinity wrote: "The point isn't so much that the melee Agent would be a weak Guardian, but that she would be so much like a Guardian that you might as well play a real Guardian instead." You could just as easily say "the Guardian would be so much like a melee Agent that you might as well play a real melee Agent instead." *shrug*

I said that PUMPING blessing magic is not useful. i.e., bringing both it and spellcraft up to 20 as is often done with battle magic -- this would be a waste. I certainly wasn't implying that a melee agent should avoid using blessing magic! Good god no. And there are very few circumstances under which ANY kind of agent should EVER attack something which is undazed and won't die from the attack if you have less than 10 AP remaining. Cmon, common sense people. Melee agents may end up Dazing more often than a battle magic agent, but you won't be using essence or energy on spells much -- especially once you get a Regenerating Claymore. The argument that they are just like weak guardians is COMPLETELY fatuous. There's a thread here (Agent vs. Guardian I think) where I did out the math; by the late game the Agent will only be a few levels shorter on melee stats, but can opt to have a very functional Daze and Strong Daze. The Guardian won't be able to daze tougher creations without completely neglecting other stats; this is a huge disadvantage.

Pumping blessing magic is not very useful, as there seems to be a 'ceiling' effect -- after a certain point, bless doesn't get more powerful, etc., although they do last longer. It is however very possible to play agents melee-style. Compared to guardians, the loss of a few points on some melee skills is more or less balanced with the significantly easier time you'll have keeping Daze functional. The agent is more flexible, though. There's no real advantage to this over the standard battle magic agent, but it's extremely doable.