Quiconque

You can't find out the number in-game, although Mercedia in the Thellite Colony will tell you if you are above or below 100. You can also go to one of the people who does check the number and see how they react (i.e., Darnor or Mouawad)

Quote: Originally written by F'nor: Alwan hasn't given me the quest to repair Moseh. I've been back to see him and it still hasn't happened. Do I have to betray the Safehouse to him in order to get the quest? Either that, or have a decent reputation with the Shapers and a few points in Leadership. However, as far as I can tell betraying the Safehouse has no actual gameplay effects aside from the reputation change and reward.

Some of the code for fleeing serviles or guards gives experience for each, but is set to only give the reputation change once. I couldn't tell how the Cairn Gates one was set up because it was a few weird-looking nodes in the zone dialogue code itself. Quote: Originally written by Servile Synergy: I'm trying to wrap my head around this, because you say both Rebels and Shapers reference this same sum. It seems like I'm able to get the majority of rewards in this game. Did you notice above where I said there are very few times the number is actually referenced? Look at the chart. Grim and Manohla give exactly the same rewards. Also, Darnor's aren't particularly useful rewards. For some of the quests that depend on you killing someone, you get credit when they die. However, for some of them, you get credit only when you choose the conversation option to tell them you are going to kill them in an overdramatic way. I may try to update this to include which quests can be performed in only one way or in both ways, and also what all the rewards are and the interaction with passes and other flags.

Suppose you tried to do the same thing with a Lifecrafter. You'd have weaker melee skills. You'd have about 1/3 less Health and more than 1/3 more Essence. So as far as being less survivable goes, the difference isn't that huge -- maybe 12% of your Parry rate probably made up for by having creation meatshields, and 1/3 less Health. In practice you'd wear more suitable items to buff your creations, so your melee skills wouldn't be amazing at all. And a Servile can certainly do more damage than any single creation. But far less than even a group of cheap tier 3 creations, if we're talking about Drayks. Randomizer, when you say you maxxed out at 22 Int, are you talking about an essence cap, or just how much you needed?

Something I did not take into account is the difference in item bonuses. Later in the game, there are some pretty ridiculous melee bonuses available (+2 Str, +2 Melee Weapons and +4 QA, to start with one item) whereas the spellcasting bonuses are smaller, just a few that net +1 to +4 per item between Battle Magic and Spellcraft. All told a Servile can accrue, from items alone: +14 Strength +10 Melee +1 Levels Damage +6 QA +1 Parry +12 Vampiric Touch while still making sure to get +2 AP. Throw in starting stats and a meager investment of skill points and you are hard pressed to avoid ending up with a melee machine. Of course, you also have a nice selection of ancillary effects -- poison, acid, curse, and stun -- at your disposal. So we are back to the G1 paradigm of "if you reach it, it dies" -- except that now you can always reach it, you have Parry, better HP, and much better access to much better buffs. Plus, since you didn't have to spend lots of skill points getting there, you can pump Mental Magic to high heaven and never worry about a thing. That said, I'm still not sure that a well-planned regiment of creations won't do better.

So, Shapers and Rebels both rely on one number to tell if they like you or not. It starts at 100 and changes when you complete most quests and a small number of conversations. Obviously, for many of these you an choose the + or - option but not both. Here's a complete list of the things that can change it: -5 Shaila dies -2 Deal with Master Thell for Joakim -3 Guide Caravan through Cairn Gates -3 Guide Caravan through Cairn Gates (double?) -2 Allow Sandia to escape -2 Free Reiner and tell him to escape -1 Q: Barbaro -1 First Research Notes given to Fackler -1 Lie to Alwan about mission (or refuse to talk) -2 Q: Mars -1 Q: Mouawad -2 Per escaping Servile refugee (?) -2 Destroy Eliza and report it to Pirik -2 Destroy Shaftoe and report it to Pirik -1 Q: Ozyss -3 Destroy Heart (or return it to Darnor) -3 Scout Turabi Gate for Darnor -3 Clear 31st Camp -2 Help Zorin's Rebels escape -3 Kill Eliza -3 Kill Shaftoe -3 Kill Moseh -3 Give Monarch's papers to Greta -2 Betray Archibald to Ellsworth -2 Contact Vecsey for Ellsworth -2 Kill Cantor -2 Kill Tycho -4 Destroy Shaper camp for Litalia -3 Free prisoners for Manohla -3 Kill infiltrators for Ossissess -1 per trapped rebel who escapes (?) -1 Pledge escape to trapped rebels -1 Kill Horis -1 Q: Greta +5 Walk Shaila to Forsaken Docks +2 Betray sinkhole rebels +1 Report Sinkhole rebels' deaths to Crowley +2 Betray Burkes to Crowley +2 Agree with Master Thell +5 Betray Caravan +2 Kill Sandia (or convince her to return) +2 Free Reiner and tell him to return +1 Q: Barbaro +1 Tell Alwan about mission +4 Betray Illya Safehouse to Alwan +5 Help Moseh and report it to Alwan +2 Destroy Moseh and report it to Alwan +2 Show Rebel Papers to Alwan +2 Q: Mars +2 Betray Drewry to Kane +2 Betray Lilly to Kane +1 Q: Mouawad +3 Return Heart to Mouawad +1 Q: Ozyss +2 Kill Zorin's Rebels +3 Destroy Mutated Thahd for Eliza +3 Kill Krazo and Mystithus for Shaftoe +3 Help Moseh +2 Kill Nakel +3 Give Monarch's papers to Miranda +1 Contact spy for Miranda +1 Report scout's death to Miranda +2 Betray Vecsey to Miranda +2 Let Tycho go +2 Kill cultists for Krogstad +2 Sabotage Rebel defenses for Yngrid +1 Kill trapped rebels at fort +2 Help Horis shape new Kyshakk +1 Tell Alwan of meeting with Litalia +2 Give Drakon specifications to Alwan +2 Tell Alwan Citadel's location, but no Drakon info +2 Help all five infiltrators for Koerner +3 Kill Litalia for Koerner +2 Tell Kiki about Litalia's papers +2 Give Rebel Papers to Kiki +2 Destroy rogue trall for Kantor +2 Kill chief and shaman for Dameron +1 Q: Greta +2 Get scrolls for Dalia Here's a complete list of the things that are open to you when the number is high or low enough. The second column indicates whether or not Leadership reduces the requirement. "Yes" means it does so on a 1:1 basis, "1/3" means only 1/3 the value of your Leadership is used. As you can see, there are not actually many points that rely on this number: 109+ Yes Alwan -- Moseh quest (Shaped Breastplate) 105+ Yes Duncan -- training 105+ No Mouawad -- 1st reward 112+ No Mouawad -- 2nd reward (Thirsting Knife) 120+ No Mouawad -- 3rd reward (Ring of Eye's Purity) (+3 Battle Magic) 120+ Yes Matala -- lets you go 115+ Yes Alwan -- Northforge Citadel quest 110+ 1/3 Grim -- 1st reward 124+ 1/3 Grim -- 2nd reward (Farsight Breastplate) 136+ 1/3 Grim -- 3rd reward (Agent's Shelter) 105+ No Shotwell -- join party 104- No Pirik -- Safehouse key 95- No Darnor -- 1st reward 88- No Darnor -- 2nd reward (Firecaster Gauntlets) (+1 Battle, Blessing Magic) 80- No Darnor -- 3rd reward (Girdle of Life) (+2 Endurance) 90- Yes Gibbons -- buy canisters 100- No Khur -- join party 90- No Manohla -- 1st reward 80- No Manohla -- 2nd reward (Farsight Breastplate) 68- No Manohla -- 3rd reward (Agent's Shelter) 100- No Ossissess -- Kill infiltrators quest N.B.: There are also places in the game where what happens is based on a specific choice you made. This section does not cover those, and they may be important. Perhaps someone who's played through repeatedly can say something about those? Manohla and Grim give the same rewards. There are a number of other places where the rewards are equal: Alwan and Pirik's reward for the caravan mission, for example, and killing or helping Yngrid. With that as a caveat, here is a list of some of the more interesting quest rewards in the scripts. Some of these might be acquireable by killing someone or looting something instead of talking to them; I'm not sure. Joakim -- Steel Sword and Shield Gretchen -- Tinker's Bauble Fackler -- Gauntlets of Succor Alwan / Pirik -- Shaped Gauntlets Kane -- Guardian Stone Mouawad -- Skein of Wisdom Pirik -- Shaped Blade (Moseh) Pirik -- Mindwarp Seal (Eliza) (+2 Mental Magic) Pirik -- Runed Jade Necklace (Shaftoe) (+1 Spellcraft) Trianus -- Shaped Belt Greta -- Mental Focus Charm (+1 Spellcraft) Stubbs -- Demon's Bile Jared -- Singing Rapier (+2 QA, +1 Parry, but d4 damage) Monarch -- Shaper Robe, Armor Band Yngrid -- Infiltrator's Charm Litalia -- Puresteel Necklace Litalia -- Viper's Touch (Shaped Blade w/ Poison Drip) Ossissess -- Stasis Shield, Puresteel Boots Koerner -- Polychromous Shield, Blasted Greaves (+1 Str, +2 End) Koerner -- Spectral Rapier (Litalia) (+2 Parry, +2 Mental Magic, but d4 damage) Ghaldring -- Puresteel Charm (+1 Str, +1 Damage) Learned Hartl -- Impervious Band Szmani -- Projection Belt Ssaroyen -- Puresteel Shield

Hmm. On second thought, I don't remember when I tested this, so maybe I never did for GF1-3. Doh.

I'm in the middle of chapter 2 and have about 7500 gold on hand. That's after spending 5000 on Spellcraft and another chunk of change on a selection of spells. Granted, I haven't bought any creations, but those wouldn't cost too much. I'm sure stuff gets more expensive, but I find it hard to believe there's going to be the massive financial crunch people have been commenting on.

You have to be close enough to see what he is doing, but far enough to not trigger the message you got. I recommend following just behind him as he walks south, and saving just before he enters the room. Then you can try different positions to see what works.

The "regenerating" life drain item enhancement in G3 actually worked quite well for a melee-based PC. I guess that's gone the way of the Emerald Chestguard, huh?

Nope. In Geneforge (and A4) Str, Dex, Int, and End are all determined based on level, and base level is multiplied by some factor dependng on your difficulty.

Assuming it is the same as with every other spidweb game, difficulty affects only one thing directly: enemy experience level. This in turn affects their health, attack power, and dodge and hit rates.

I just searched the scripts. It appears the only items there are unlimited "collection quests" for are Research Notes, Swamp Herbs, and Melted Glass. That's going to lighten my inventory!

Because the essence calls don't actually mean anything -- other than your PC, nobody in the game checks essence when they cast things.

You're right, both of those are random drops with a base chance of 1%. That means that however luck affects the chance, it affects it in a very significant way.

Synergy, I think some of those drops are unique drops and not random ones. That is, individual enemies can be made to "carry" items which will appear when they are killed. Luck will never create item drops, but it WILL increase the chance of random ones, presumably by 1% per point of Luck at least up to 10. Having just 5 Luck makes a really noticeable increase in the number of dropped items. EDIT: I tend to put a lot of points into Luck right away (except when min-maxing vlish in g3). The first few levels are so cheap, it's a no-brainer. After that, it is worthwhile once your other skills get equally expensive, but I buy it sooner to increase my item drops.

I'm not convinced. Melee is better -- partially because of what you mentioned and partially because PCs (but not creations) now have a 5-multiplier melee attack, the new broadswords, which I failed to mention in my attack types thread. That amounts to a flat 20% damage increase, plus a manueverability increase. That's all good and well when you are attacking one enemy over and over, or a swarm of enemies that cluster around you. But if you're attacking enemies that use ranged attacks, they don't stay close enough to hit two different enemies on the same turn when you are hasted. So ranged attacks still have that big advantage, of always being able to use all attacks when hasted. I do want to try, at some point, a Missile Servile who puts all his points into Dex, to get deadly missiles and a super-high dodge rate. The engine previously nerfed that by not allowing consistently high dodge rates and I'm not sure if it still will, but it's a nice idea.

Free skill boosts are great, but keep in mind they work completely differently -- you always get them and they don't affect the cost of new points in a skill. Trainers are a more strategic issue basically requiring advance planning, since you can only use them if you haven't yet put points into the skill in question. When trainers are available early and train "expensive" skills, it's easy to hold off and make use of them. When available late, they are often more frustrating than helpful.

Is it possible that these discrepancies come from earlier betas? The artifacts all have the usual listings in the item definitions file, and it would be quite a departure for any random element to exist with that at all. Shapemaster Boots for example list a flat 16% armor and the 10% HER for creations -- +3 levels of damage for creations just isn't there.

Anyone make a list? I was reminded by my discovery of the Spellcraft trainer, who is very near the start for such a relevant and expensive (in skill points) skill.

So, from a plotless munchkin min-maxing perspective, what are the benefits at various points to siding with the Rebels or the Shapers? Your 'reputation' seems to be controlled by a single variable that starts at 100. The game scripts have 82 calls that increment or decrement it, many of which do not trigger the little "Your reputation with the _ has increased" message. For example, if Shaila dies you get -5 towards the Rebels, and if you walk her to the Forsaken Docks you get +5 towards the Shapers. There are 41 calls to look it up to determine what happens. However, most of those 41 are in a small handful of zones. It is also worth noting that many of those calls allow your Leadership to replace needed points in either direction on a 1:1 basis.

If you attack Crowley in chapter 1, he sometimes summons one.

That's a cool tactic. I think the question of whether Lifecrafters or Infiltrators make better shapers depends on enemy attack patterns, something I don't know enough about yet. If lots of enemies target the PC, I'd want the hardier character, otherwise I'd rather have the extra essence for more and better creations. Also, I feel the need to debunk the statement that few things resist physical damage well. Here's all the resistance data from the creature definitions, by creature type and by degree of resistance: PHYSICAL (0) 15-35: Thahd, Serviles, Roamer Family, Vlish Family, Spawner, Turret Family, Specter Family, Glaahk Family, Kyshakk Family, War Trall Family 36-50: Shaper, Agent, Charged Thahd, Unstable Thahd, Clawbug Family, Servant Mind, Submission Turret, Warriors, Battle Alphabet, Drayk, Cryodrayk, Golem, Drakon, Ur-Drakon, Rotghroth Family, Wingbolt Family 51-65: Guardian, Pylon 66-00: MAGICAL (1) 15-35: Vlish Family, Warriors, Pylon 36-50: Shaper, Artila, Servile Casters, Apprentice Mage, Golem, Kyshakk Family 51-65: Agent 66-00: Unstable Thahd, Charged Artila, Inferno Wyrm, Servile Power Techs, Servant Mind, Glaahk Family, Mage, Ur-Drakon, Gazer Family, Wingbolt Family FIRE (2) 15-35: Guardian, Agent, Fyora, Spawner, Warriors, Battle Alphabet, Apprentice Mage, Cryodrayk 36-50: Shaper, Servile Casters, Mage, Gazer Family, War Trall Family 51-65: 66-00: Inferno Wyrm, Servile Techs, Redshell Clawbug, Flaming Shrub, Pylon, Drayk, Golem, Drakon, Ur-Drakon POISON (4) 15-35: 36-50: Vlish Family 51-65: 66-00: Unstable Thahd, Servile Vat Techs, Oozing Worm, Oozing Crawler, Clawbug Family, Servant Mind, Venom Turret, Specter Family, Golem, Rotghroth Family ACID (5) 15-35: Apprentice Mage, Pylon 36-50: Artila Family, Roamer Family, Submission Turret, Mage 51-65: 66-00: Unstable Thahd, Oozebeast, Servile Vat Techs, Oozing Worm, Oozing Crawler, Redshell Clawbug, Burning Turret, Specter Family, Rotghroth Family ICE (6) 15-35: Guardian, Agent, Cryoa, Spawner, Warriors, Battle Alphabet, Apprentice Mage 36-50: Shaper, Servile Casters, Mage, Gazer Family, War Trall Family 51-65: 66-00: Servile Vat Techs, Charged Vlish, Spraying Shrub, Specter Family, Pylon, Cryodrayk, Golem For the most part, only specialized enemies have high resistances to the elements. Nothing resists physical attacks horribly, but almost everything resists them somewhat. So if you have a Drayk and a Kyshakk, the Kyshakk will be useless against Glaahks and Gazers, but will do better damage against most other enemies. Also, the Kyshakk can still use melee against Glaahks and Gazers. Acid and Poison do look like the best overall attack types, though. That said, Rotghroth attacks are not acid attacks, they just deliver the acid status effect.

Whoops. Can somebody move this to the G4 forum?

Here's some useful data on all the creation types. This first table is arranged by shaping type: Cost +2 LV HP SP Melee (x4) Missile Spcl Skill FX Mult. Skill Base Acc. Type FX Fyora 8 11 2 25 20 sed2 3 4 4 75 Fire Cryoa 25 32 7 25 400 2 6 0 15 80 Ice Stun Roamer 28 35 10 25 250 2 4 2 8 70 Mag Acid Pyroroamer 15 20 4 2 250 2 -- -- Drayk 60 75 24 60 0 8 9 2 25 75 Phys Cryodrayk 90 111 28 60 0 8 6 8 15 80 Ice Stun Kyshakk 125 152 25 400 500 2 10 2 20 70 Mag Elec Burning K. 160 195 28 100 500 2 10 10 20 70 Mag Elec Drakon 183 222 32 300 500 13 9 13 25 75 Phys Ur-Drakon 220 267 35 300 500 20 10 20 40 75 Phys Slow Str Thahd 12 17 4 60 0 3 -- -- Unstable T. 25 37 12 0 0 -- -- Clawbug 30 39 10 35 0 4 Pois -- -- Plated C. 50 63 16 10 0 0 -- -- AP B. Alpha 55 68 20 60 0 9 -- -- Str B. Beta 80 99 26 60 0 9 -- -- Str Rotghroth 125 152 28 250 0 19 Acid -- -- q,P Corrupted R. 160 181 37 100 0 23 Acid -- -- q,P War Trall 175 212 32 300 0 2 8 2 15 70 Phys Shock Trall 230 279 33 50 0 2 8 2 15 70 Phys AP Artila 12 17 4 10 100 2 4 4 8 70 Mag Acid Plated A. 40 51 12 40 100 2 4 0 8 70 Mag Acid Vlish 32 41 12 25 100 4 Pois 5 3 8 70 Mag Conf Charged V. 75 92 12 0 100 4 Pois 5 3 8 70 Mag Slow Glaahk 60 75 20 40 0 10 Stun -- -- Ur-Glaahk 80 99 30 40 0 10 Stun -- -- Wingbolt 125 152 28 75 600 2 Pois 10 8 40 100 Mag Unstable W. 140 171 28 75 600 2 Pois 3 20 4 75 Fire AP Gazer 180 219 32 180 500 10 Stu+ 10 10 40 100 Mag P,L Eyebeast 240 291 38 300 500 10 Fea+ 10 1 20 Auto Fire P,L Again, some conclusions may be off, especially regarding the unstable varieties I haven't played with, but the data is solid. HP and SP refer to Health and Energy bonuses. All creations get a lot of points in both based on their ability scores and levels. I decided to go through and calculate out average damage as I did for G3. The following table calculates it at three levels. One, at +1 for a fresh creation with minimal shaping skill. One, at +13 for a fresh creation at high skill (the 10-cap makes 13 a likely place to end up at). Finally, one at +33 levels to represent a creation that tags along with you for some time. Presumably, the top tier creations won't be around that long and a Fyora could easily gain 30 levels for a total of +43, but this should make a useful approximation. I did out averages for both melee and missile attacks. Also, it assumes resistance of 0%, which may not accurately reflect prevalent creation resistances for different attack types. Cost +2 LV Melee Missile Spcl Lv +1 Lv +13 Lv+33 Lv +1 Lv +13 Lv +33 Fyora 8 11 2 13 28 53 14 26 46 (Fire) Artila 12 17 4 15 30 55 22 37 62 (Acid) Plated A. 40 51 12 25 40 65 22 37 62 (Acid) Roamer 28 35 10 23 38 63 24 39 64 (Acid) Cryoa 25 32 7 18 33 58 22 43 78 (Ice) (Stun) Vlish 32 41 12 30 45 70 34 52 82 (Mag) (Conf) (Pois Touch) Charged V. 75 92 12 30 45 70 34 52 82 (Mag) (Slow) (Pois Touch) Cryodrayk 90 111 28 60 75 100 78 99 134 (Ice) (Stun) War Trall 175 212 32 50 65 90 73 100 145 (Phys) Drayk 60 75 24 55 70 95 88 118 168 (Phys) Kyshakk 125 152 25 40 55 80 93 126 181 (Mag) (Elec) Unstable W. 140 171 28 45 60 85 72 84 104 (Fire) (12 AP) Wingbolt 125 152 28 45 60 85 147 180 235 (Mag) (Pois Touch) Burning K. 160 195 28 45 60 85 148 181 236 (Mag) (Elec) Drakon 183 222 32 78 93 118 163 193 243 (Phys) Gazer 180 219 32 107 128 163 169 202 257 (Mag) (Stun Touch) Shock Trall 230 279 33 50 65 90 73 100 145 (Phys) (12 AP) Ur-Drakon 220 267 35 98 113 138 229 262 317 (Phys) (Slow) Eyebeast 240 291 38 93 111 141 126 161 216 (Fire - All) (Fear Touch) Pyroroamer 15 20 4 15 30 55 -- -- -- Thahd 12 17 4 18 33 58 -- -- -- Plated C. 50 63 16 25 40 65 -- -- -- (Pois Touch) (10 AP) Unstable T. 25 37 12 28 43 68 -- -- -- Clawbug 30 39 10 28 43 68 -- -- -- (Pois Touch) B. Alpha 55 68 20 53 68 93 -- -- -- Glaahk 60 75 20 55 70 95 -- -- -- (Stun Touch) B. Beta 80 99 26 60 55 100 -- -- -- Ur-Glaahk 80 99 30 67 82 107 -- -- -- (Stun Touch) Rotghroth 125 152 28 88 103 128 -- -- -- (Acid Touch) (QA) Corrupted R. 160 181 37 108 123 148 -- -- -- (Acid Touch) (QA) Battle creations may not be as bad as they were before, but they still suck. Horribly. The most egregious example of this is the War Trall -- the fifth-tier creation! -- which is basically a Drayk with extra HP for three times the essence cost. Ghastly. The Shock Trall is better, but still worse than the Ur-Drakon. Battle Alphas and Betas are still almost categorically worse than Glaahks and Ur-Glaahks, who in turn pale compared to Drayks. Rotghroths have about a 1 in 3 chance of getting a second strike in, making them interesting but a lot worse than Wingbolts. Drayks, Wingbolts, Ur-Drakons, and Eyebeasts look like by FAR the best values. Of the earlier creations, Cryoas and Artilas look like the best bet. Artila and Drayks are more economical and probably available earlier than Cryoas and Wingbolts. So Fire Shaping and Magic Shaping both look like viable paths. However, ramping up creation damage and multipliers also means that the level bonus for high shaping skill is a lot less critical. It'll get freshly made Drayks an extra 25% or so of damage and a bunch of HP, but a +1 Drayk will still do more damage than a +13 Glaahk, for the same cost in essence. So there's less need to specialize in one shaping skill. That plus the superiority of late game creations means that unlike in G3, the most powerful creations are not going to be the Vlish you take through the whole game. (Augh, my poor Vlish... so nerfed!) That actually changes a whole lot. Suddenly, it may be more useful for shaping types to spend skill points on magic and combat abilities. And Infiltrators can utilize creations nearly as well as Lifecrafters. Alternately, a Lifecrafter might plug all their skill points into Intelligence and end up with much better armies through 100% of the game than if they had pumped shaping skills. Finally, the "disposable creations" strategy now looks much better than the "drag them along" strategy, possibly always and definitely before you get Drayks. I think my Lifecrafter plan is now: pump Int and make Artilas, then boost Fire Shaping a little and make Drayks, throwing in a few Kyshakks for damage type variety and HP, and then Ur-Drakons for power.