Men are from Slars

I believe one of that FAQs in the forum header has a section on "Powergaming the Sects."

Quote: Originally written by Archmage Alex: My question is, why not? There already are summoning spells and, in Avernums past, they sometimes summon demons. Why not have a spell that specifically summons demons? This one actually has an answer: because Jeff has apparently received numerous complaints over the years about the demon summoning spells in Exile, from concerned parents, I guess. Jeff concluded that demon summoning was not really an integral part of the game, and he might as well get rid of it. Quote: Does this require more than palette-swapping the spell effect graphics from red/yellow to white/blue and copy/pasting the code with "firedmg" switched to "icedmg"? Maybe not, but maybe it does. I do think special effects are (rightly or not) probably one of the main reasons we have so few spells. In Exile, a huge chunk of the spells involved no graphics effects whatsoever. I would guess that, just as with the PC sprites, it takes more work to add spell graphics than we think. Personally, I'd rather see 120 spells with 40 identical (not even palette swapped) graphics than 40 spells with 40 graphics. But I guess not everyone feels that way. Quote: There are any number of spells Jeff could add, taken from games he's already produced, that would not significantly affect gameplay in any way beyond adding variety, utility, and enjoyment to the use of magic in the game. So the question still remains, why not have more spells? Quoted for agreement.

You've got to be kidding. *facepalm*

You only need the Fyoras with you when you are about to get experience for something. Mostly, I imagine shaping all seven right before any experience-granting encounter. Anyway, I think that means you can make do with AI Fyoras early on. It does force Lifecrafter unfortunately. The earliest you can get Fyoras at is level 3. A Lifecrafter can get to 46 essence at that point, enough for 5 Fyoras. An Infiltrator can get to 38, which is only enough for 4, sadly. One experience point later comes level 4, at which point a Lifecrafter has 60 for 7 Fyoras, and an Infiltrator has about 50, for 6 Fyoras. Mental Magic is obvious, both for Daze and for Unlock, which lets you open doors without gaining experience. Looking ahead, I'm not quite sure how to deal with Moseh, Monarch, and the like. EDIT: Charm and Dominate seem particularly good since they allow you to nab enemy drops without gaining XP for them.

It's worth pointing out that A4 has close to the same number of spells as Nethergate -- just a few less -- but people have great things to say about the Nethergate spell system. Why is that? The spell lists actually compare surprisingly closely. Both games have at least 6 regular summoning spells, similar sets of healing and curing spells. A4 has more damage spells (including area of effect spells) but it doesn't have Hero of Old or Simulacrum. I'll suggest two reasons Nethergate compares more favorably. First, the spells are in flavor; Wind Warriors, Coils of the Serpent, Hero of Old, Sever Seal, these are spells that tie in to the atmosphere and feel like they belong. Second, Nethergate is a significantly smaller game than A4, so the spells don't get old as fast. Avernum has more ground to slog through, and more hacking and slashing.

That would be a neat challenge -- finish at the lowest level possible. (You up for this one, Thuryl?) A diplomacy/mechanics only game can almost certainly be done, and I bet you can get enough skill points for it solely out of doing the required quests. That restriction does make it harder though as pretty much all the diplomacy-related bonuses (like having people kill stuff for you) gives a conversational XP bonus. Hmm.

Thuryl's right. What AM I talking about? *blinks*

The non-damage spells might begin with a base 100% to-hit instead of the standard elemental to-hits (60% fire, 70% magic/acid, 80% ice). Or they might begin with 70%. I don't really remember. Do note that "a couple of points" difference in spell skill is worth 5% to-hit per point, so that could be a big chunk of what you saw.

I assume you are talking about Duncan in Rivergate Keep. Although Leadership can make it easier to get him to train you, you don't need it, and you only need a minimal pro-shaper reputation (105) to utilize him. Leadership exchanges on a 1 to 1 basis with reputation for his check, so pumping leadership high for that would be a gross waste of skill points.

The chance of hitting with Essence Shackles, as with any spell, is dependent on your skill in Spellcraft, your skill in the spell's field (in this case, Mental Magic), and your skill in the spell itself. It is NEVER dependent on Intelligence, Dexterity, Missile Weapons, or anything else.

*nod* This is true. I always thought of the Awakened in the middle as they are not actively hostile towards the Shapers, and in G1/2 that made a lot of sense. With the more recent rebel attitude it may make sense to flip as such. Shrug.

"Typically"? What trilogy of trilogies goes in that order, other than the projected one for Star Wars?

Geneforge Gaiden!

I didn't think the variety of shade created by shapers was actually a creation. I'm not sure if the game text says they are somewhere, but the creature definitions file definitely says that no shades are creations. Shaper Shade uses the same basic information as all the regular undead. I figured it was more of a magical projection -- along the lines of the shades left behind by countless wizards in Exile.

Ghaldring will clearly be an important figure in G5, G6, or both. His true goals and feelings towards the Drakon plans and life in general are pretty ambiguous. He doesn't look like he's shaping up to be a villain. Jeff's villains are never ambiguous. They may be heroes to some and villains to others, but the lines are always fairly clear. ...on the other hand, G2 and G3 both foreshadowed him, and most of the stuff Jeff foreshadows involves villains (Garzahd, Linda, Rentar-Ihrno). I suppose the Vahnatai would be a major exception.

Out of curiosity, how much time do you spend making those edited jpgs?

I did some intensive testing of this -- there's a topic somewhere where I had a good discussion with Thuryl about it. Anyway, the short of it is that 1) resistances are multiplied together, so two 50% pieces of armor reduce by about 75%, and 2) the actual damage reduction granted to a given attack varies somewhat. In tests, 25% armor gave reductions of about 10% to 40%, with more closer to 25%. Thuryl's idea, which makes sense, is that each individual point of damage has an X% chance of being eliminated, where X is your armor/resistance score for that type of damage.

Repairing Moseh is 100% unnecessary to keep any areas open whatsoever. It's a myth. Even if you kill Moseh, reporting to Alwan will still earn you the pass that you need to get into the Shaper areas in the Fens. The problem is that many people kill Moseh, then assume there is no reason to report back to Alwan. The game really does reward indulging in diplomacy with the side you aren't helping.

The combat skills are really not a big deal -- you only save a few points over those in classes that actually care about combat. And the trainer isn't available until halfway through the game. So they are only worth fussing over if you are playing on Torment and really want to optimize every last point. You will however want to hold off training Spellcraft, as a Spellcraft trainer shows up very early. The Warrior and Shock Trooper are universally acknowledged to be sub-optimal classes... though the difference is not huge. The Lifecrafter is best with creations due to higher essence and will have the most raw offensive power. The Servile is the best fighter and potentially the most versatile and survivable. The Infiltrator is extremely similar to the Servile -- slightly less survivable, but with slightly more essence -- with most seeming to feel the Servile and Lifecrafter are preferable. As far as sects go, you are somewhat better off if you pick one side and stick with it. The Shapers have somewhat better rewards, though there are exceptions. The link in my sig and in the forum header will have more detailed information about that. Otherwise, there aren't any major surprises / realizations that you should have done X 20 hours of playing ago.

The missile attack used by Shock Tralls stuns, as do Stun Wands, Submission Batons, the Stunning Blade, and the melee attacks of Glaahks and Gazers.

This new chart looks very nice too. I still think having a single dot for each sect is an extremely poor way to represent the Awakened and the Rebellion. Also, there is no way the Shapers are as pro-shaping power as the Takers are. The Takers aligned with Trajkov, and were the origin of the Rebellion and its self-shaping Drakons. Maybe one dot is too little for the Shapers, but the strong Loyalist Shaper perspective is about where the Obeyers are, perhaps slightly less restrictive and slightly further from creation rights. Evaluating both spectra, the sects should probably go in an order something like this (IMHO): Shaping power (most to least restrictive): * Trakovites -- eliminate entirely * Obeyers (Rydell) -- restrict very strictly * Loyalists (Aodare) -- restrict very strictly * Shapers (Alwan) -- restrict strictly (halfway point) * Shapers (Zakary) -- restrict when necessary * Awakened (Ellhrah) -- restrict when necessary * Awakened (Tuldaric) -- unleash when necessary * Takers (Gnorrel) -- unleash when useful * Trajkov -- unleash with little regard for the world * Rebels (Greta, Litalia) -- unleash with little regard for the world * Barzites (Barzahl) -- unleash with little regard for the world * Rebels (Akhari Blaze) -- unleash with NO regard for the world Creation rights (least to most supportive): * Barzites (Barzahl) -- Shapers dominate creations with cruelty * Loyalists (Aodare) -- Shapers dominate creations * Shapers (Agatha) -- Shapers dominate creations * Shapers (Diwaniya) -- Shapers dominate and support creations * Obeyers (Rydell) -- Shapers dominate and support creations (halfway point) * Trakovites -- Peace and equality * Awakened (Ellhrah) -- Peace and equality * Trajkov -- Equality * Takers (Gnorrel) -- Freedom at any cost * Rebels (Greta, Litalia) -- Freedom at any cost, destroy Shapers * Rebels (Akhari Blaze) -- Drakons dominate (and support?) other creations, destroy Shapers I think the easiest way to handle this is to recognize creation rights as a continuum that is not a simple gradient between two extremes. Thus, Shaper domination, equality, creation power, and Drakon domination of everyone else are all different points.

The Stunning Blade doesn't have a better chance of stunning. It *actually* adds several levels of stunning directly. This is significant because unlike G1-3, where every attack had a good chance of stunning if it did a lot of damage, stunning is rare.

I agree with Alorael about thrown weapons and uniqueness. Makes me think of Angband and the sad lack of artifact throwing knives. (Though I suppose you can turn Grond into a throwing weapon.) I actually have a hard time thinking of ANY turn-based RPG in which thrown weapons are as useful or as powerful as melee weapons.

Interesting graphic. There are definitely two spectra involved. I think you could further generalize from "self-shaping" to "regulation of shaping." This would add some precision to the spectrum, as the Trakovites are stricter in that regard than the Obeyers, etc. It would be interesting, and more telling I think, to do this exercise with particular leaders rather than whole sects. Some of the sects aren't well represented by a single dot. Consider the Awakened. In G1, Ellhrah is horrified if you use the Geneforge. Obviously, Tuldaric is more liberal with shaping power. Similarly, the Rebellion: the humanoid rebellion supports creation rights and (G4 implies) has at least a modicum of concern for preserving the world (i.e., restricting shaping power at least slightly). The drakon rebellion doesn't do either of these things as much. Edit: I suppose I would be somewhere around the Trakovites.

Except that the chance of Quick Action getting an extra strike in has nothing whatsoever to do with the enemy's level. Whereas the chance of Assassination working was based directly on the enemy's level. Also, certain secondary weapon effects (but not all of them) can be activated on both hits. (Disclaimer: I tested this in G3, but haven't noticed it to be different in G4.) Edit: Maybe "strategically analagous" would be a better way of putting it.