Tenderfoot Thahd Rawal Posted June 17, 2016 Share Posted June 17, 2016 I've just finished replaying the Geneforge series for the first time in a few years, and just had a few thoughts I wanted to throw at someone. My first time through, I was a lot younger, and didn't pick up on a lot of the ethical subtleties woven into the story. First thing to note: I instinctively support the rebels, plumping for the Awakened (1 & 2), Rebels (3 & 4) and Astoria (5). I've played almost all of them through to each of the endings, at one point or another, and while I do sympathise with individual shapers, I really really struggle to see how anyone could honestly support their factions ethically. For all that the rebellion has dubious methods, the shapers are actively promoting genocide (of the drayks/drakons/gazers) and mass enslavement (of serviles). Equally, arguments based on "controlling everything to protect people"? No shaper takes that principle further than Sage Taygen, and even in his own ending, it doesn't work. Second thing to note: I instinctively *play* pro-shaper, because I find it painfully difficult to pass up on the superior rewards and better protections they can offer. Bluntly, I find myself compromising my principles for the good of my characters. This bothers me. Thirdly: In my previous playthroughs,I remember dismissing the Trakovites as being mad, and choosing their endings only for completionism. This time round, I took them a lot more seriously, actually taking the time to read all the personal accounts of shaping gone mad (the burrowing mould subplot in GF3 particularly struck me). I still think they're wrong, however - firstly, because a single Barzite-type "rediscovering" shaping would probably be enough to bring down a Trakovite government, and secondly, because of the obvious and significant value of creatiosn such as Ornks and living tools, not to much the terraforming efforts seen dotted around Terrestia. It was a close call, though. Thoughts, anyone? I'm happy to be argued wrong, if there's anyone who sincerely disagrees with anything I've said. EDIT: A lot of my points seem to be covered in a few recent forum posts, so I'm having a look and replying there when appropriate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyshakk Koan Alberich Posted June 17, 2016 Share Posted June 17, 2016 As you note, we had a recent thread on that very subject here -- http://spiderwebforums.ipbhost.com/index.php?/topic/22251-who-would-side-with-the-shapers-spoilers-ok/ -- as I mentioned there, I started out sympathizing with the Awkened, but ended up with the Shapers because I refused to use the Geneforge or let myself be shaped. After that I was pro-Shaper ‘til the final game when I ended up a reluctant Trakovite. In RPG’s, live and computer, personal power is always the great temptation…so it speaks well of the game’s design that the Shapers can tempt you with power, and you can find yourself giving in, when your convictions run the other way. It’s like the justification I once saw for having undead monsters in D&D drain levels when they hit a character…not that that fits anything the undead did in legend, but it is the one thing that players are really afraid of. So it’s the one way to get people to roleplay the fact that the undead are supposed to be scary. (I’ve only seen one Spiderweb game…Avadon 2…where you are faced with the temptation to betray your allies for something other than power. And I was impressed though some were not.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyshakk Koan Nim Posted June 17, 2016 Share Posted June 17, 2016 Please don't use Sage Taygen as a pro-shaper example for anything. He is just utterly nuts and so is his "plan". Destroying the economic foundation of shaper society so that he can kill a few rebels is just Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyshakk Koan Alberich Posted June 17, 2016 Share Posted June 17, 2016 It isn’t just a “few rebels”…he is looking for a totalizing solution, a way to wipe out rebellion for good. You can see that in the neverending conflicts of our own day….lots of people want to find the “magic button” that will end the problem once and for all. And in Geneforge that temptation is even greater as the Drakons’ power has grown exponentially with time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyshakk Koan Nim Posted June 17, 2016 Share Posted June 17, 2016 The purity agent doesn't kill human rebels or drakons. That's not wiping out the rebellion, that's just weakening it. At a monumental cost to the shaper empire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Mea Tulpa Posted June 18, 2016 Share Posted June 18, 2016 It’s like the justification I once saw for having undead monsters in D&D drain levels when they hit a character…not that that fits anything the undead did in legend, but it is the one thing that players are really afraid of. So it’s the one way to get people to roleplay the fact that the undead are supposed to be scary. FWIW, there are plenty of stories about ghouls, ghosts, and the like draining living beings and leaving them a weak shell of what they used to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyshakk Koan Alberich Posted June 18, 2016 Share Posted June 18, 2016 In combination with the good old PC, who can wipe out the Drakons, the Purity Agent is as totalizing a solution as you can wish for. (And since the Drakons have demonstrated, ever since their first appearance, that they prefer to stand and die instead of retreating, it's pretty effective.) ‘course no one’s plans work quite as intended but you can see what Taygen is aiming for and why, and it is pro-shaper and pro-human. I never heard of a traditional story where a person got attacked by an undead and got diminished skills or abilities as a result. Killed, yes. Turned into an undead, yes. Rendered utterly useless (i.e., put out of the game), I vaguely remember. But I don’t know of any where the undead made you unskillful and less powerful. Yet…that is what RPG players fear, and the result is that even the reckless ones treat level-draining undead with a special loathing and respect. Analogously, real humans may be tempted by wealth and influence, but in RPG’s, personal power is the #1 temptation, so it makes sense for the “tempters” to offer that instead of cash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Mea Tulpa Posted June 18, 2016 Share Posted June 18, 2016 In folklore, it's not hard to find tales of encounters with ghosts or spirits that result in the person becoming weak in any number of ways. But since it sounds like you want something more specific, let's deliver it: the original level-draining undead, the D&D wight, comes (via Tolkien's Barrow-wights) from the draugar of the Icelandic Grettis saga, "where Grettir is cursed to be unable to become any stronger." This is basically what wights in AD&D do: they drain experience levels, causing some loss of ability and a drastically reduced rate of recovery/new experience gain, without special intervention. I have to admit that when I went to look this up, I wasn't expecting THAT precise of a precursor to level-draining. But there you go! Blxz and Alberich 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chittering Clawbug Val Ritz Posted June 18, 2016 Share Posted June 18, 2016 In a lot of ways, the conflict at work (totalitarian control of Shaping vs. use of it by all) is not unlike the information revolution and the struggles we're running up against now with internet piracy. Before the Internet, it was a simple matter to track down bootleggers and people making unlicensed copies of movies, albums, what have you. You had a physical trail to follow. Similarly, prior to the advent of the Geneforge and related technologies, anyone trying to learn Shaping was easy enough to track down: just follow the trail of stolen books and research implements. Now, though? The Internet allows for the transfer of information without physical media. The Geneforge and canisters allow for the proliferation of illegal Shaping without a single scrap of Shaper text or lab equipment going missing. Sure, you can crush the individual offenders one by one, but as long as one copy survives on the Net, as long as there's one Barzahl, one Ghaldring, one Akhari Blaze, you're screwed. The cat's out of the bag, Pandora's box has been opened. You cannot, as they say, unring a bell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyshakk Koan Alberich Posted June 18, 2016 Share Posted June 18, 2016 Well, if the price of being wrong is, "I get to read an Icelandic saga I hadn't heard of," I can live with being wrong any day! (The ones I know best don’t have supernatural elements at all…they’re acts of violence punctuated by lawsuits.) Valtio – Sort of. The Drakons, as they are so willing to stand and fight, are very destructible…as long as you hurry up and do it before their power grows measureless. Human experimenters of the Barzahl variety are more insidious, but if canisters are hard to make (and completely banned), Geneforges extremely hard to make (and completely banned), and shaping is otherwise very hard to learn, then it’s a lot easier to control than information now. Though you might expect shapers to be more leery of letting their “lifecrafters” operate independently for too long in remote areas in the future. Maybe rotate them into different positions every couple of years and have the Agents check up on them more often. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenderfoot Thahd Rawal Posted June 18, 2016 Author Share Posted June 18, 2016 Please don't use Sage Taygen as a pro-shaper example for anything. He is just utterly nuts and so is his "plan". Destroying the economic foundation of shaper society so that he can kill a few rebels is just Sage Taygen is a perfect example, I think. The fact that someone quite that insane can be handed a position of power and authority under the Shapers kinda suggests something is wrong. I agree that if every Shaper was like Alwan, the Shapers would probably be better - but they aren't. For every Alwan, there's a Rawal, or a Taygen, or any of the dozen-odd Shapers we see acting like unpleasant, bullying thugs throughout. As you note, we had a recent thread on that very subject here -- http://spiderwebforu...rs-spoilers-ok/ -- as I mentioned there, I started out sympathizing with the Awkened, but ended up with the Shapers because I refused to use the Geneforge or let myself be shaped. After that I was pro-Shaper ‘til the final game when I ended up a reluctant Trakovite. Can you explain your argument for 3 and 4? I can understand why you'd consider shaping yourself insane to be a bad plan, but it's possible (and, in fact, I have) completed GF3 and 4 pro-rebel without my skin glowing - so I assume you have a separate reason here. In RPG’s, live and computer, personal power is always the great temptation…so it speaks well of the game’s design that the Shapers can tempt you with power, and you can find yourself giving in, when your convictions run the other way. It’s like the justification I once saw for having undead monsters in D&D drain levels when they hit a character…not that that fits anything the undead did in legend, but it is the one thing that players are really afraid of. So it’s the one way to get people to roleplay the fact that the undead are supposed to be scary. (I’ve only seen one Spiderweb game…Avadon 2…where you are faced with the temptation to betray your allies for something other than power. And I was impressed though some were not.) I agree, I think the game design (actual mechanics aside) holds up remarkably well, considering. I think it was probably most obvious in GF2, where I designed my character badly, got fed up of being beaten to a pulp and needing to reload, and went full-Barzite for that rush of canister-fuelled ecstasy you get when joining them. Despite the obvious, um, "concerns", with the Barzites. I rather liked Avadon 2 myself, actually, it's probably my favourite non-Geneforge spiderweb game. But I can see why people got queezy. I found the Silke plot to be interesting, as long as he never tries it again. I found the prospect of betraying your allied for principles (helping the farlanders) much more enticing, ruined only by how completely unlovable all the Farlanders were. In a lot of ways, the conflict at work (totalitarian control of Shaping vs. use of it by all) is not unlike the information revolution and the struggles we're running up against now with internet piracy. Before the Internet, it was a simple matter to track down bootleggers and people making unlicensed copies of movies, albums, what have you. You had a physical trail to follow. Similarly, prior to the advent of the Geneforge and related technologies, anyone trying to learn Shaping was easy enough to track down: just follow the trail of stolen books and research implements. Now, though? The Internet allows for the transfer of information without physical media. The Geneforge and canisters allow for the proliferation of illegal Shaping without a single scrap of Shaper text or lab equipment going missing. Sure, you can crush the individual offenders one by one, but as long as one copy survives on the Net, as long as there's one Barzahl, one Ghaldring, one Akhari Blaze, you're screwed. The cat's out of the bag, Pandora's box has been opened. You cannot, as they say, unring a bell. That's a very interesting perspective, I hadn't thought of it that way before. I guess you could actually take it a step further, with 3D printing? (most obviously, with that guy making gun designs for 3D printers) A few other thoughts: - Anyone else noticed how similar Rawal and Orois Blaize are? Both semi-detached from their nominal side, both doing anything and everything to accumulate wealth and power while staying out of the fighting. They even both do the same "tap you on the head to reshape the PC" thing. I like to think it's deliberate, to show how the Drakons are essentially becoming shapers. - Speaking of Rawal: "They loathe me. It does not matter. I shall own them all, in the end". Quite possibly my favourite quote of the series. - Ghaldring remains, for me, the most interesting character. Looking back from the end of GF5, I struggle to anything he could have done better (as far as himself surviving goes). Even if, at the end of his own faction ending, he'd conceded real power to the humans and serviles, he'd probably have been displaced by an irate Salassar or Khresia-type. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotghroth Rhapsody Blxz Posted June 18, 2016 Share Posted June 18, 2016 - Ghaldring remains, for me, the most interesting character. Looking back from the end of GF5, I struggle to anything he could have done better (as far as himself surviving goes). Shouldn't have tried to kill me when I attended his lair in G5. Biggest mistake he made; it will cost him his life. The rage is strong with this character (and forgiveness surprisingly low). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall alhoon Posted June 18, 2016 Share Posted June 18, 2016 when I ended up a reluctant Trakovite Wait what? O_O I can't say more cause Blxz is in this spoily thread, but I'm surprised. Sage Taygen is a perfect example, I think. The fact that someone quite that insane can be handed a position of power and authority under the Shapers kinda suggests something is wrong. I agree that if every Shaper was like Alwan, the Shapers would probably be better - but they aren't. For every Alwan, there's a Rawal, or a Taygen, or any of the dozen-odd Shapers we see acting like unpleasant, bullying thugs throughout You forget... the Monarch. A powerful guy that grew more powerful by shaping himself and then he decided that he didn't like living things he didn't make himself very much and decided to wipe them out. All. By himself. Using a trick that many shapers could do although for some reason they think it's stupid. When that stupid trick along with essence pools and a few creations that can shape required a shaper division to work with a rebel division just to contain him. Monarch: Giving genocide a new meaning by targeting everyone not just a group. And he started as a Shaper. Speaking of GF4: Shaper Moseh. The guy that was hooked to a machine with tubes feeding him essence, sustained himself by draining the life out of captives ... and looked me in the eye and called me a freak and abomination because I have shaped myself with the knowledge to cast firebolts. The kettle, calling the pot black. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyshakk Koan Alberich Posted June 18, 2016 Share Posted June 18, 2016 Rawal – In Geneforge 3 and 4, you don’t have to shape yourself to be a rebel, but the Rebels themselves do so early and often and encourage the same. The problem with self-shaping is it gives people and other creatures more power while it removes from them all restraint in using that power. Not to mention any healthy sense of self preservation, let alone preservation of anyone else. I didn’t just want to keep my own canister virginity (though I did); I wanted to put an end to all Canister Madness and Geneforgery. A future ruled by tyrants who can shape is bad enough, but a future ruled by bat**** crazy tyrants who can shape is even worse. Since there were only two teams in town, at least as far as I could tell, I went full-on Shaper. With respect to Avadon 2, I liked the “Silke” plot myself though I did not give into the temptation. What I really liked was the parallelism with your companions. In both Avadon games, your companions want you to do things that are not-necessarily-good-for-Avadon-or-your-mission. You have the tough choice to make: indulge your companion's desire for revenge/wealth/glory/whatever, or stick with the mission. Well, in Avadon 2, you get a chance to betray the mission for something personal. ‘course I would’ve liked it better if there’d been a way to redeem or at least rescue her after holding true to my side. Alhoon – Given what I said above, it’s not too surprising, is it, that I ended up Trakovite? My only major difference with Litalia is that I’d keep the shaping of unintelligent things (like crops) and dumber creatures. For Blxz’s sake, I’ll cover up the rest: Working for Litalia required me to make several leaps of faith…that she knows what she is doing, and in particular that she knows how the Shapers and Rebels will react to your various missions. But I figure that in addition to being extremely intelligent, she’s also been high in the councils of Rebel and Shaper, gone to the heights of canister craziness, and come back down from it. As I commented in another thread, one of the most beautiful moments in any Spiderweb game is when Litalia, satisified with my service, hands me one of her best weapons and says she’s through with killing. alhoon 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall alhoon Posted June 18, 2016 Share Posted June 18, 2016 Alberich: This is spoily Working for Litalia required me to make several leaps of faith…that she knows what she is doing, and in particular that she knows how the Shapers and Rebels will react to your various missions. But I figure that in addition to being extremely intelligent, she’s also been high in the councils of Rebel and Shaper, gone to the heights of canister craziness, and come back down from it. As I commented in another thread, one of the most beautiful moments in any Spiderweb game is when Litalia, satisified with my service, hands me one of her best weapons and says she’s through with killing. And you ... believed her? We're talking about a mass murderer here that goes on to genocide Drakons and Drayks, changes her mind and allies with them and lays waste to the Ashen islands though rogues just to make people wary against Shapers regardless of casualties and helps create the Unbound not that much out of sheer desperation like Greta of "it's that or we're all dead". Then, she changes her mind again and has you to release the bugs to destroy crops and kill civilians as they rapidly multiply to spook Astoria, regardless of casualties. After that, she has you to break the Line to destabilize the Storm Plains, regardless of casualties. And yet again, she has you to unleash a disease that would kill creations and humans before it's perfected to kill only creations to spook Taygen and the rest of the council. Regardless of casualties. Then, she turns on her long-time ally, Ghaldring that they made the rebellion together. Ghaldring on the other hand was not tolerating even discussions of going after Litalia. That is Litalia. A completely mad Shaper whatever she says, that gives no value at all to individual lives. She's no Life-Crafter or Trakovite whatever her title. She still thinks that the most effective way to promote her agenda is... seer chaos. Like she did in the Ashen Islands, like she did with the Unbound, like she does with the bugs\Line\Purity agent. leap of faith that she knows what she's doing: Well, she does but doesn't care about the body count, at all. gone to the heights of canister craziness, and come back down from it: I don't think she ever did. She managed to de-shape herself to a degree, through shaping. She's still bat#### crazy making plans that if they work (they do) they leave people dead creating chaos. Plans that if they backfired could bring the whole Terrestia to its knees. In light of these, when the mad Queen of Chaos and Genocide gives you her best weapon saying she's through with killing, after she had you engineer the death of thousands, sounds a bit hollow especially since a voice in my head was screaming "She changed from Shaper fanatic to Rebel fanatic to Trakovite fanatic. what if she changes her mind again?" It wouldn't be the first time. I hope I give you some insight as to why I consider that Litalia is not redeemed in the Trakovite ending, but just damns herself more. I find it amazing how these games provoke so may different viewpoints on the moral issues. I dare say they give me a better insight on what makes civil wars so terrible and complex issues. Alberich 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyshakk Koan Alberich Posted June 18, 2016 Share Posted June 18, 2016 Alhoon -- Yep, I sure did! When she was slaying ‘em back on the Ashen Isles she was canister crazy. In GF5, she’s over that. But the fate of mankind and life on Terrestria is at stake, so she can’t afford to wear sackcloth and sit in ashes while Alwan, Taygen, Rawal, Ghaldring, and poor Astoria fight it out for their visions of the future. The stakes are too high. I can respect that however horrible her past was. For the rest, with her in-depth knowledge of both sides, she doesn’t know any way to change their policies except by releasing the bugs and so forth. Given how unspeakably arrogant they’ve been, yes, I can see how that would be true; and as I said, I figure she knows the psychology of both sides’ leaders better than anyone. I agree totally with your last sentence. Jeff’s games have moral depth, even though their design is fundamentally simple. It’s why I’m looking forward to Avadon 3 so much. Great discussion! alhoon 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall alhoon Posted June 18, 2016 Share Posted June 18, 2016 I understand her motives, but at some point, I draw a line over the body count. Anyway, I understand your viewpoint, I believe you understand mine, we had a very interesting exchange of opinion but let's not derail the thread more. Alberich 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenderfoot Thahd Rawal Posted June 18, 2016 Author Share Posted June 18, 2016 Well, speaking as the OP, I'm finding the derailment fascinating, so by all means go for it. I'd actually take a third position - even if Litalia is trustworthy, the Trakovite position just doesn't hold up. I don't have any significant objections to her methods, even, if they were the only way to get the Trakovites some respect (and considering how they get pushed around in GF4, I think she's probably right). However, preventing shaping isn't going to stop mass murder and chaos: our own world is unfortunate proof of that. And it ignores the described "two centuries of peace and prosperity" that preceded the series, that came about as a direct consequence of shaping. Terrestia is going through a bad patch, to be sure. But it would be foolish to ignore the benefits of shaping, when correctly controlled. Shaper Monarch is a bit of an outlier, I'd suggest. Under normal circumstances, the shapers could have dealt with him swiftly, before he built up strength: it was only the chaos of the war that gave him the time and lack-of-attention needed to pull it off. All the more reason, then, to get the war over with swiftly one way or the other, and then get back to some semblance of law and order. And to respond to the 3 & 4 stuff: In both games, the rebels at least had (mostly) honourable principles at heart. Sure, shaping themselves insane wasn't great, to say the least - but Litalia herself shows that the lifecrafters and Drakons could come back to their senses, given time, and away from the immediate pressures of fighting. The shapers, on the other hand, just wanted to kill everyone who ever opposed them (think of Alwan, back in GF3 with the harmony island rebels) so they could get back to ruling unopposed. The Gull island serviles are an example I think shows a fundamental difference between rebels and shapers. With the ashen islands under rebel control, the serviles were left in peace to live happy, free lives - under a shaper ending, they get ruthlessly crushed. The "little people", be they drayks, serviles or outsiders, can thrive under the rebels, in a way the shapers would never allow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall alhoon Posted June 18, 2016 Share Posted June 18, 2016 One thing: In GF4 it was Litalia pushing them around from the Rebel side. Once Litalia defected, the Trakovites stopped being chased by the rebels. She was adamant about their extermination in GF4. And calling Monarch "Shaper Monarch" gives me the chills and is a worse insult to Shapers and their ideology than calling geneforge-in-basement Rawal a Shaper. Taygen may be radical, evil, outside of Shaper law, but he's not as far from Shaper morals as Monarch or Rawal are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotghroth Rhapsody Blxz Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 I can't say more cause Blxz is in this spoily thread, but I'm surprised. Don't hold back on my behalf. I can sniff out when a spoiler is coming even before the author knows it's there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyshakk Koan Alberich Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 Re: Litalia I'd actually take a third position - even if Litalia is trustworthy, the Trakovite position just doesn't hold up. I don't have any significant objections to her methods, even, if they were the only way to get the Trakovites some respect (and considering how they get pushed around in GF4, I think she's probably right). However, preventing shaping isn't going to stop mass murder and chaos: our own world is unfortunate proof of that. And it ignores the described "two centuries of peace and prosperity" that preceded the series, that came about as a direct consequence of shaping. I wouldn’t let the good be the enemy of the best here. Yes, you might still get warlords and mass murderers. But they wouldn’t be accelerating in power and ruthlessness the way the drakons and Barzites did. Power corrupts even without canisters and geneforges…but those things corrupt harder and faster, and empower as they corrupt. I do think those two centuries of peace and prosperity are important…they were times when shaping happened, but the laws restricting smarter creations and self shaping were mostly enforced. Litalia’s idea is to keep the things that were already shaped (e.g., you can keep planting the crops that were developed by shaping) so you wouldn’t lose the full benefits of those centuries. Mind you, the compromise she ends up with is closer to what I really wanted anyway…but among the factions I had to choose from, hers was the closest. And to respond to the 3 & 4 stuff: In both games, the rebels at least had (mostly) honourable principles at heart…The shapers, on the other hand, just wanted to kill everyone who ever opposed them (think of Alwan, back in GF3 with the harmony island rebels) so they could get back to ruling unopposed. The way I read them, the Drakons were at least as ruthless and were quite prepared to eat anyone who stood in their way. (I believe there was a captive Drakon in G3 who was quite clear about this.) The Awakened just wanted to secure their own independence, but the Taker-type rebels…the only ones I remember from G3 and G4…were oriented towards killing, revenge, and domination rather than freedom. Don’t forget the virus in G2…the Drakons had the cure, but they were only going to share it with Awakened who submitted to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall alhoon Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 Most of the Drakons are as bad as the Shapers. In GF4, the Cryodrayks rebel against them. They don't quite hide their contempt for everyone else and their feelings of superiority. At least Shapers are more civil in their snubbing. If I had to choose between Drakons and Shapers, I would prefer Shapers. Slavery and genocide? Weeeeell... I'm pretty sure Drakons would eventually enslave everyone non-Drakon. Humans, Serviles, etc. Genocide? Drakons would probably turn on the Gazers too and wipe out areas that resisted their rule. BUT... I never saw the choice as Drakons or Shapers. Mostly like Greta\Lankan-moderates or Litalia\Drakons or Shapers. Taygen is not really a choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenderfoot Thahd Rawal Posted June 19, 2016 Author Share Posted June 19, 2016 Taygen is not really a choice Oh, I think I Taygen is a choice - *if* you believe that creations are all worthless. His plan involves the fewest human deaths of any faction, so if that's all that matters to you, I guess it could be justified? However. It's quite difficult to come out of geneforge believing creations are all worthless. BUT... I never saw the choice as Drakons or Shapers. Mostly like Greta\Lankan-moderates or Litalia\Drakons or Shapers. Exactly. The drakons never win, even if you join their faction - moderates end up in control for any pro-rebel ending. The way there is a fair bit bloodier if you do it the drakon's way (compared with Astoria or Litalia), but the end result is, arguably, the most moderate of all. For me, another important difference is that the drakons never claimed (nor, I think, would they manage) to want to eradicate any of the other species. The shapers do. For that reason, I think I'd probably prefer Drakon rule to shaper rule, but I can see why you might disagree. Equally, my impression from G3 and G4 is that as long as you stay out of the drakon's way, they don't care about you enough to bother killing you. The shapers, conversely, are prepared to got to the ends of the earth to hunt down communities they don't like. In GF1, the shaper ending involves them sailing an army to Sucia to wipe out all the serviles, including both the obeyers and the awakened (which effectively sets the stage for GF2). I don't think the drakons would've done that - they'd have loved the grovelling servility of the obeyers, and I severely doubt they'd have bothered hunting down the awakened unless they became a nuisance. The only ones they'd have bothered with, I suggest, would be anti-drakon takers. TL;DR: The shapers are significantly more paranoid than the drakons: The drakons believe themselves superior to the point of invulnerabilty, which makes them more tolerant of the "humans and smaller creations" than the shapers are. Re: Litalia I think the trakovite ending leaves you more vulnerable to Barzite-type terrors, not less. All it'd take is one book of shaping knowledge, one canister to escape destruction, and you've got death and destruction again. But without anyone knowing how to shape in defence, casualties would be far higher. Imagine trying to suppress Monarch without shapers/lifecrafters - it would be carnage. Regardless of whether shaping would've been better left undiscovered, there is, to borrow a cliche no way to put the cat back in its box. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall alhoon Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 There would be no way to suppress the Monarch without Shapers/Lifecrafters. There was barely a way to suppress him without BOTH Shapers and Lifecrafters. All he had to do was create a few more mad creators to places he eradicated to wipe non-Monarch-shaped life out of existence. Till one day he would trip and lose his cane. That would be funny. Was he immortal BTW? What was his end plan? OK, assume he got the continent to himself. Most of it empty. He could take a stroll on empty cities with his control baton. And then... what? OK, he loved solitude. If people around him bothered him so much, he could just go to Sucia island or something and settle there to not have to face the world. All moral problems aside, EMPTYING a continent is kinda pointless. From his notes, he didn't seem like a nihilist. He didn't want to empty the world to punish it or something. PS Litalia Litalia's the most bloody ending. Taygen's disease is released and kills people in the oasis. The Line is Broken and Unbound re-enter the Stormplains. The Shredbugs are released and attack people (and destroy crops). I can't think of anything bad that Shaping can do, that Litalia doesn't make sure it is done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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