Siege of Avalon

[googoogjoob]

Hey, alright, so. Haven't posted here before, but I've lurked for a while. Anyway:

 

Years ago I played an episodic RPG called Siege of Avalon. It's pretty good (well-written, allows a diverse range of strategies), but with a few serious issues that prevented it from being a hit (the episodes were overpriced, for example). The company that made it, Digital Tome, were working on a sequel, but folded soon after releasing the final episode of Avalon. You can still find CD-ROM copies of Siege of Avalon around, but as far as I know you can't actually buy it digitally anywhere.

 

Anyway, this is all relevant because of some interesting similarities between Siege of Avalon and Avadon: in Siege of Avalon, an uneasy pact of several member states, each with a distinct culture and traditions, band together to defend themselves from an external threat. The pact is defended and enforced by a centrally-located fortress led by a charismatic, forceful leader. The player is a new recruit who arives at the fortress at the start of the game, and the game follows the recruit as they perform various tasks for the people and factions inside and out the fortress, accompanied by a pair of allies chosen from a diverse bunch. There is the requisite set of betrayals, shady pasts, spies, and reversals of fortune that any good RPG has.

 

Now, the previous description pretty obviously correlates with Avadon in broad terms, and I've never seen these similarities between the two games noted before. There are, of course, many differences between the two games, ranging from the minor (Avalon has seven member states to Avadon's five; the heads of state of several of the nations are in the fortress itself) to the major (the fortress in Avalon is under siege, restricting the player's movements to the immediate environs; the leader of the fortress in Avalon is essentially a soldier and general rather than the Machiavellian schemer that Redbeard is). Also, there's the obvious title correlation.

 

I don't by any means intend to suggest that Avadon's plot is ripped off or copied from Siege of Avalon- the two games play out entirely differently past the initial setting. But, I do wonder if the setting of Avadon was influenced by Siege of Avalon. If it isn't, it'd be a very interesting coincidence.

 

As an interesting side note, Bjorn Lynne, noted demoscene musician, composed much of the in-game music for Siege of Avalon; he also did the title music for both Avernum 4 and Geneforge 4.

 

Further, incidentally, the first episode of Siege of Avalon (of six episodes) is freeware, and well worth checking out if you're into RPGs. (Though, considering this is the Spiderweb forum, I think it's safe to bet everyone here is into RPGs.)

[Alorael at Large]

It's possible, but the premise is hardly unique and Siege of Avalon is hardly well-known. It wouldn't surprise me if Jeff were consciously or subconsciously influenced, but I'd be equally unsurprised if he'd never even heard of the other game.

 

—Alorael, who is slightly entertained by terminology. Spiderweb games used to be shareware, now they're just games with demos. Freeware's lost a lot of meaning with the free-to-play boom. And indie is a selling point now, not a mark of obscure second-class software!

[mouton]

Haha, nice. Two things though:

 

There is no doubt the name similarity is a coincidence, for one simple reason: if you rip names off, you rip popular ones. You call your game "warmace", "battlecraft", "glass effect" or "War Z". You do not copy something obscure

 

Also, I just can't imagine Jeff copying some other game like that consciously. Perhaps he heard about this from a person who knew a person who played it. Or he just came up with it independently - it's not a very original setting that one needs to steal, really. History, after all, provides countless examples of singular power centers holding together disparate dominions.

[cbecker78]

"Avalon" was also the name of the island King Aurthur retiered too IIRC. There we have a charasmatic King uniting several peoples with distinc cultures under one rule, and fighting off the evil... uh... was it the Saxxons?

[googoogjoob]

Also, I just can't imagine Jeff copying some other game like that consciously. Perhaps he heard about this from a person who knew a person who played it. Or he just came up with it independently - it's not a very original setting that one needs to steal, really. History, after all, provides countless examples of singular power centers holding together disparate dominions.

 

"Avalon" was also the name of the island King Aurthur retiered too IIRC. There we have a charasmatic King uniting several peoples with distinc cultures under one rule, and fighting off the evil... uh... was it the Saxxons?

 

Both of these are true, but I think Siege of Avalon and Avadon are set apart by several unique features: In them, the central fortress doesn't actually rule over the nations that are part of the organization being the biggest. In Avalon/Avadon it's more like NATO or the CIS: all the states involved in the pacts in the games are part of them voluntarily, as part of a defense against external forces, not as a result of being coerced into submitting to the international organization or conquered.

 

Incidentally, the name similarity thing could be a total coincidence, but given the other factors, that seems less likely.

 

Also, another thing: in Avadon, the five member states of the pact are represented in Avadon's insignia by a five-pointed star; in Avalon, the seven member states of the pact are represented by a seven-pointed star. (This is probably just coincidence cause it's such an obvious symbol, though.)

[mouton]

Here is some background on the inspiration for Avadon: http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2010/06/avadon-developer-diary-1-where-ideas.html Quite a different angle, heh

 

Anyway, for a crime, one needs a motive. Why would a game creator steal such an idea? It's not, in itself, an incredibly novel setting. It is a relatively typical fantasy set in a typically chaotic medieval geography. Nethergate, Geneforge and Avernum - they all have more interesting setups. Unless one would argue that Jeff has grown senile and cannot possibly come up with ideas on his own - a notion contradicted by the actual content of Avadon - there is simply no reason for him to have knowingly and maliciously commited such an act.

[googoogjoob]

Here is some background on the inspiration for Avadon: http://jeff-vogel.bl...here-ideas.html Quite a different angle, heh

 

Anyway, for a crime, one needs a motive. Why would a game creator steal such an idea? It's not, in itself, an incredibly novel setting. It is a relatively typical fantasy set in a typically chaotic medieval geography. Nethergate, Geneforge and Avernum - they all have more interesting setups. Unless one would argue that Jeff has grown senile and cannot possibly come up with ideas on his own - a notion contradicted by the actual content of Avadon - there is simply no reason for him to have knowingly and maliciously commited such an act.

 

Oh, no, I don't mean to imply that any of the ideas in Avadon are stolen. I just mean that there are some very interesting coincidences between the settings of Avalon and Avadon. Beyond the initial settings, the games diverge wildly in plot, characterization, etc.