Jukai

Well, once again, the fact that they all blunder and get killed is hearsay... it's what the people of Avernum have heard and pieced together. It's easy to believe that they didn't know the whole story. Not to mention, Jeff hasn't exactly been shy about retconning minor details.

I think it's totally possible to describe the adventures of the brave few who got separated from the main crowd and tried to survive a harsh and untamed underground world. Hell, it could even be open ended--- find the escape route, live down there forever, etc. etc.

The issue is, as you said, creating a game with almost no towns, no way to sell items, limited social interaction... A lot of Jeff's games are big on dialogue so it would be a departure from normal, but it certainly would be new and innovative.

You're right though, when I said "it'd be just like Avernum 1" I said it in a bad way but honestly that's a good thing

Well, there's not a lot said about the first expedition and it's mostly hearsay-- I'm sure with some new information (and perhaps some minor retconning) we could have a new and exciting Avernum prequel. I feel like the game your describing would be too much like Avernum 1, not enough hook, while a first expedition game could be a totally new experience.

I can't see an Avernum 1.5 working out, story is too tight for the open-endedness that Jeff likes.

Now, a first expedition PREQUEL.... that could have some wings. It would be tough without any cities though.

Or it means that these laws break down under certain circumstances which cannot be duplicated on the macro-level.

New race revealed!!!

I once wore a poncho during a big rain storm. When I did that, do you think I became more equal to a Vahnatai or more equal to a Mexican?

True enough, but Jeff's games have always been niche based. They weren't exactly following what the gaming community was doing in 1994, but he built up a small market of people who did like what he was doing. So the idea is, he has that crowd, now he can keep that crowd and expand on it by conforming with the gaming industry.

What's kind of comical is that it was the non-linear world that got Jeff the small following from the beginning, and he's built up that following by starting to make non-linear games because he knows his original fans wont leave him.

And don't get me wrong, I loved Avadon's straight-forward, plot driven, open ended story telling. It was fantastic. But linear should stay in Avadon, and Avernum should always be an open world.

You really don't need to worry about this. The rewrite should hypothetically be an identical game with a changed battle/spell system, upgraded graphics, and a new town.

Playable Rakhashi, anyone?

It's more than just "adding races for the heck of it." At this point, I'm paying $25+ for a game I've played twice before. It'll still be fun and all nostolgic, but you hope for as creative of changes as possible. Everyone's pretty happy about a new TOWN, so of course a new race, playable or not, would be pretty exciting if it can be intertwined with the story properly and wont seem, as you put it, "adding races for the heck of it."

I mean, it's a gigantic cave filled with two humanoid, intelligent creatures from deeper caves... a third is not a stretch.

The Vahnatai didn't really drive the Empire forces out, it took the combined might of the Vahnatai and Humans/Sliths/Nephilim. There's two reasons why the Vahnatai wont be playable. One is the reason Lilith mentioned, that there is such a gap between the playable races and the Vahnatai that the latter would never group up with the former. The other reason has more to do with storyline: this is a remake of a remake, and Jeff wants to make this as true to the story as possible (unfortunately, more for time and simplicity's sake than anything). Having a group of Vahnatai, or even one, would drastically effect the storyline of Avernum to the point where half or most of the games would have to be completely rewritten.

The only game where a Vahnatai could even be remotely playable would be Avernum 6, and even then, all the angry implications that the Vanhatai want the humans/niphilim out (and actually engineered the plague) would have to be adjusted to fit the extra character... and there are no plans to remake A6 anytime soon, anyway.

edit: although, if I said I wouldn't want a totally new race to be added to the game, I'd be lying...

Well, when I meant more characters, I simply meant a six character party system and not a four character party system--- not the 8-12 character sub system that games like Final Fantasy has. For some reason, it irks me more than it should that I can only use four characters in a battle... not that it's stopping me from playing, I've played Avernum 1-6 and Avadon and enjoyed the experience, and overall they were better games than Exiles... but there was simply a less epic feeling to each game.

Having six characters simply made it feel like you had more firepower in the 'me vs the world' feel of Avernum, it allowed you to realistically fight more foes and made it seem like you were going up against entire armies instead of fighting guerilla style against small roaming squads. I also don't believe you need more spells and more items for six characters, you simply have some redundancy and you can tactically choose what redundancy you need--- two tanks, two healers, a few hybrids, maybe a character devoted for lockpicking and scouting and speed and somesuch.

I don't really know why Avernum went with the four party system, I remember e-mailing the question way back in the day to the designers and I didn't get a clear reply (although they seemed apologetic, which was nice, cause there was no reason to be) but I don't believe it has anything to do with the player, it's probably more a designer issue. Less characters means easier times making harder battles, as well as giving you less playable options so there's an allusion of more choices.

Still, I got WAY too excited when I learned I could fight with five people in Avadon. Kinda sad, really.

Being a newbie, I pondered about only writing this in one thread of spouting it out in every identical "what do you want to see in in A:EftP" thread on this board.

After debating the pros and cons in my head, and then flipping a coin, I decided to reiterate what I've written before: MAKE MORE THAN FOUR CHARACTERS PLAYABLE!

With the four party system, I always feel like I'm not using everything I can use and I don't want to replay the game just cause I never had an archer. Hell, it can even be like Avadon where you mostly fight with four characters but can bring in more under certain circumstances.

Gimme two extra characters to fight with! Having that six character battle at the end of Avadon made me drool and long for the days of Exiles.