Men are from Slars

Any Guardian or Agent who puts skill points into Healing Craft is nuts. There are something like five different spellbooks/quest rewards/etc that increase Healing Craft in G3. Agents, additionally, will have more than enough spell power for healing thanks to Spellcraft.

You're right, though, that Augmentation and Essence Armor are more effective for the G. Actually, that's a good point. High level Gs can get ridiculous HP reserves. On Torment that really doesn't tip the scales so much, but it's still something in their favor.

The lack of male agents is a little funny. Beyond the pic, I think every single NPC agent in the games has been female.

Shaping isn't a weakness of the agent, it just isn't a strength. But there's no point in having shaping be a primary offense for either A or G, since shaping will be many times more effective in the hands of a Shaper. Thus it's really only worth considering shaping as a support skill here, and as a support skill it's frankly less useful than daze is.

I was looking at the initial stats for the different classes this morning, and realized that... well, there are some imbalances. This affects the Shaper very little, since he has more of a different play style, and shaping is less of a "splash color" skill than magic or melee for the Guardian and Agent. The Guardian and Agent are surprisingly interchangeable, though, so I'm going to compare them here.

Basically, there are three sorts of stats differences among the classes.

1. HP, Spell Energy, and Essence - conveniently, G and A have equal essence. A has a lot more spell energy, G has a little more HP. Negligible differences unless you rely on battle magic, but the G would never do that anyway.

2. Cost in skill points to increase skills - in G1, this was huge: it would always cost A twice as much as G to increase Quick Action, for example, even when the rate of actual skill increased declined at 10 or 20 points. In G2 and G3, when the rate of increase declines (because you have to spend more points to increase the ability), the advantage of the superior class also decreases. So after the first few times you increase a skill, the advantage of the class that's "strong" in that skill drops to a fairly constant level. For strong vs. normal, this is very little. Thus, a G who puts any number of points into Missile Weapons will always have either 1 or 2 more levels in the skill than an A who puts the same number of points in. (I did the math out.) On the other hand, an A putting points into battle magic will always have earned (not counting base points in the skill) 4 or 5 levels more than the G (this stabilizes once you've put about 10 skill points into the skill).

3. Initial "bonus" points. These are often more significant, since they don't make further points cost extra, and some skills have a lot of them.

G and A - AT A GLANCE

Taking both #2 and #3 into account, if a G and an A both train equally in the same useful combat skills, one will have an advantage:

Strength - Guardian +1

Dexterity - Agent +2

Melee Weapons - Guardian + 2-3

Missile Weapons - Guardian + 1-2

Quick Action - Guardian + 4-5

Parry - Guardian + 5-6

Battle, Mental Magic - Agent + 6-7

Blessing Magic - Agent + 5-6

Spellcraft - Agent + 2-3

Additionally, as mentioned earlier, the Agent gets better Spell Energy while the Guardian has an HP advantage.

We already knew the G isn't a real magic-user. But what does this mean for melee and missile attacks?

MISSILE WEAPONS: With profuse apologies to Delicious Vlish, it looks like Agents are better missile attackers. Those 2 bonus points of dexterity are a better deal than 1-2 levels of missile weapon skill, especially considering that dex also lets you dodge attacks. And if you focus on missile attacks, most of the other G bonuses aren't very useful. Then it's a question of whether you'd rather have minor shaping ability or better bless/haste/daze support. I know my preference ...of course, this just goes to show the weakness of missiles, since Agents can pump battle magic/spellcraft just as effectively as missile weapons/dex.

MELEE WEAPONS: The G gets some very nice bonuses here. However, there is one big reason to still consider the A as a melee attacker: Daze. It will take the G a whopping 18 skill points just to get to 4 levels of mental magic! Keeping daze strong enough to be really viable is thus not a great option for the G. For the A, it's no problem at all, and the A will have little problem getting skills like QA to respectable levels, especially with equipment bonuses.

Melee combat, which often doesn't allow you the corner-ducking, door-shuffling tactics favored by Tormented agents, is MUCH less dangerous if you keep your enemies dazed. Once again, it may be simpler to just run a battle magic agent, since spellcraft does double duty; melee has perks, though. Regeneration is great, and less attack spells means you have more energy and essence to use on daze.

Any thoughts?

I just replayed Darkstone mine, and the reagent in the SW by the monstrosity is Purified Essence, not Unmelting Ice.

My "enchancements" thread has disappeared, I guess. But some of them are quite useful. Regeneration I've mentioned. Steel spines are REALLY powerful on armor, for a guardian. Their effect is CUMULATIVE and NEVER MISSES, and all it takes is two or three spined pieces of equipment to start doing several times the damage, from spines, that you take from an enemy hit.

Really the only other enhancement to consider for armor is the Golden Crystal, which gives 5% resistance to everything. Use 5 or 6 of them and that's a hefty damage reduction. A lot of enemies late in the game have powerful breath attacks, so that's really useful.

"Curse power" on weapons delivers a light curse with every non-Quick Action hit. On armor, it gives you a +5% bonus to-hit (not sure if that's just with melee weapons, or with anything).

I never got any results from Speed (perhaps it ups Quick Action?) or from regeneration on armor.

Regeneration on a melee weapon heals you every time you hit an enemy! (Not Quick Action hits, though.) It's around 15-20 HP of healing (or was by the time I tried it, anyway), so if you do three melee attacks in a round, that's a lot of HP.

I strongly, strongly recommend the Regeneration enchancement for your melee weapon of choice. A hasted guardian or agent with AP boosts can heal a decent chunk of damage every turn, in addition to killing something. Combine with Daze, and keep a few Healing Pods on hand for emergencies, and you shouldn't have any problems at all.

I'm not sure you can get them anywhere else. I haven't, anyway.

Unfortunately, the scripts don't contain any information on either initial item locations or item drops -- although you can find quest item rewards. There is a drop_item command, but it is only used with thorn bushes.

Oops, my bad. You're right... you're thinking of the Putrefied Gauntlets.

(8% armor, str -2, dex -2, 20% resist acid, +4 spellcraft)

I don't know how my first sweep missed them...

No, but given that there are several items that boost shaping skill, it really is a waste -- you are spending 6 skill points just to have Thahd meatshields an island or two early, even though there's absolutely no need for them that early. Daze is so ridiculously powerful in G3, and essence pods are so plentiful, that it should carry you through much of the game.

On second thought, please ignore everything I say in this thread

I've never actually finished a game as a shaper -- half or two-thirds of the way through I finally get fed up of taking care of my creations and just go play as an agent.

Are you sure about this?

There are no gloves listed in the scripts that give +4 spellcraft.

Yeah, but not all 8 of those points are useful. In particular, the Int isn't that great for most creations.

Once again, this problem is not unique to Geneforge. This is really endemic to (almost all) RPGs. Years and years ago someone noticed that the game is more fun when your characters grow a lot. Realistically, of course, that's not going to happen very quickly, and it's a lot less likely to happen from adventuring than from training.

I think there are multiple mages in every Exile/Avernum game who comment derisively on adventurers who build their magical skills by combat rather than by study.

Yes. The scripts are well-labelled, and are extremely easy to interpret as these things go.

I don't know why you'd want to, but hey...

A level of damage is basically an extra die, in tabletop RPG terms. It's fairly easy to see that all damage ranges in GF are summed dies. Thus a 4-16 damage dagger is 4d4, the sum of four random numbers between 1 and 4. This works similarly for missiles and spells, though the numbers may be different. In GF2, at least, and GF3 is probably the same, Firebolt was d4, Searer was d5, Ice Bolt was d6, Kill was d12 I think.

I'm not 100% sure the "+X to levels of damage" works this way, but it looks like it does. Basically, it's like +X to battle magic (and presumably to damaging spells like terror, too), missile weapons and melee weapons, except that it doesn't give you the to-hit bonus.

Convicingly argued, SoT. I suppose if you are a loyalist, you -are- in a rather unique position. And as for the rebels, I guess Litalia and Hoge would have a harder time going undercover -- though considering that most of the other shapers have never heard of Litalia and don't know anything about Hoge's defection, I don't know that it would be that hard for them. True, they have OD'd on canisters, but you can do that and get things done just fine.

The really confusing thing, though, is WHY YOU? It is apparently not an accident that you were not killed in the attack on the school. Why no fuss over, say, Greta, who is clearly sympathetic, and seems to have had nearly as much training as you? (If the GF1 shaper who's "years away" from learning simple magic spells can master shaping, surely Greta can too.) And why save you, when no one seems to have any idea what you think of the conflict?

I think this is a question of the plot outgrowing the basic game assumptions. On Sucia island, this made perfect sense, since your appearance on the island was a big deal and you were, inherently, one of the most powerful forces there. There were few settlements and each one had spies from the others! In GF3, it makes very little sense -- similarly Litalia's apparent obsession with you.

The +2 levels damage from the Chestguard is great for agents, as it affects spells as well as melee and missile combat. The weight difference isn't that huge - Chestguard is 20.0, Shroud is 12.5. That's less than a point of strength in encumbrance, and late in the game one point of strength is a lot cheaper than two levels of magic.

The two mechanisms could easily coexist, seeing as they don't overlap at all. GF1 you use the tool like any other item, one by one; GF2/3 for the auto-using you click on the lever/chest.

Really I just hate having to cart around any more living tools than I need to, since they are a pound a piece...

I put together this list of random drops a while ago, pulled straight from the GF3 scripts... it sounds like some of you might find it useful. Note that this only applies to enemies with random drops, so it does not apply to most named characters, or some slight variants of fyoras or thahds, etc.

Note: each of these items has a specific chance associated with it, in I think percent; you can find these in the scripts. I'm not sure if Luck affects item drop chance like it once did. I haven't noticed a difference, at any rate.

Rogue, Enraged, Warped Fyora = Perfect Fyora Scale

Charged Fyora = Fyoraskin Shield

Rogue, Brutal, Unstable Thahd; Thahd Shade = Platinum Ring, Coins

Charged Thahd = Thahd Skin Tunic, Gemstone

Rogue, Plated, Searing Artila = Artila Eye

Charged Artila, Inferno Worm = Student's Belt

Ornk, Rogue Ornk, Oozebeast, Detonating Beast = Meat, Meat, Meat

Servile = Coins, Coins, Cloak, Dagger, Sandals, Platinum Ring

Guard, Rogue, Warrior, Plated Servile; Servile Defender, Servile Vat Tech, Servile Power Tech = Coins, Coins, Cloak, Bronze Sword, Sandals, Gold Ring

War-Bred Servile, Servile Icecaster, Servile Cultist = Coins, Coins, Acid Thorns, Bronze Sword, Sandals, Gold Ring

Rogue, Rabid, Guardian, Icebreath Roamer = Roamer Fang

Rogue, Submission, Terror, Corrupting Vlish = Vlish Tentacle

Spectral Vlish = Healing, Curing, Speed, Major Healing Spores

Spawner = Gemstone, Lovely Crystal, Beautiful Crystal

Turret = Thorns

Venom Turret = Venom Thorns

Burning Turret = Acid Thorns

Submission Turret = Submission Thorns

Reaper Turret = Reapers

Fighter = Coins, Thorns, Javelins, Healing Pod

Warrior, Elite Warrior, Blademaster, Guard = Coins, Venom Thorns, Steel Javelins, Major Healing Pod

Specter, Specter Sage, Ghost = Agent Cloak, Miner's Gloves

Rogue, Wounded Battle Alpha = Chitin Armor, Chainmail Vest

Rogue Battle Beta; Battle Gamma = Chitin Armor, Iron Breastplate, Coins

Glaahk, Rogue Glaahk, Ur-Glaahk, Rogue Ur-Glaahk = Steel Dagger

Mage, Wizard, Researcher, Lankan = Gemstone, Fiery Wand

Pylon, Energy Spire = Coins, Coins, Coins

Rogue Drayk = Gemstone, Coins, Coins, Perfect Drayk Scale

Rogue Drakon, Rogue Ur-Drakon = Perfect Drakon Scale

Rogue Gazer, Rogue Eyebeast = Eyebeast Eye

Rogue Rotghroth = Rotghroth Fang

Well, it's not like there's easy newsflow in any of the GF games. These kinds of questions are hard to address in open-ended, computer-based RPGs like Jeff's... the player will always find something unexpected to do. Dialogue pretty much has to be pre-scripted, and you can't predict everything.

Emerald Chestguard

def 50%

+2 AP

+2 levels damage

+2% resist all

+18% resist stun

Crystalline Shroud

def 16%

+2 AP

+30% resist stun

+12% resist all

+3 creation strength

Shroud for shapers, Chestguard for guardians/agents

All-Protector

def 12%

+5% resist all

+20% resist stun

+2 levels damage

Essence Aegis

def 12%

+2 spellcraft

+2 healing craft

+1 int

Both are probably inferior to Quicksilver Bulwark, but

Aegis for shapers/agents, All-Pro for guardians

Infiltrator's Ring

def 2%

+2 dex

+2 leadership

+2 mechanics

+2 luck

Avenger's Ring

def 6%

+15% resist stun

+2 melee weapons

+4 quick action

Infiltrator's Ring for anyone except melee guardians

Creator's Belt

def 20%

+2 creation str, dex, int, end

Lightning Girdle

6%

+1 AP

+3 parry

+2 dex

Belt for shapers, Girdle for guardians/agents

and then there's the spectacular, spectacular

Talisman of Might

+4 str

Actually, I *really* miss the manual living tool use. It meant that you could use just enough tools to get a lock within reach of your Unlock spell. In G2/3, if your Unlock spell is just SLIGHTLY too weak, you have to waste a full set of tools, not just 1 or 2.

I'm just impressed that we have yet to see GIFTS in the Geneforge universe. *shiver*