Mea Tulpa

Helping Moseh requires 10 Leadership, not 8. I suggested 8 natural leadership with the +2 from items. You could skip that, but there are plenty of 10 leadership requirements after Moseh. If you care so little for the XP bonuses I'd say just skip leadership entirely, don't even bother getting to a natural 6.

Quote: Originally written by Synergy67: It is easier to make effective melee and missle skills than magic, and magic is king in GF4. I agree the Infiltrator is overlooked, and not a bad class. But I take issue with the above statement. It takes significant investment in melee skills, and especially in Quick Action, if you want to have a reliable melee attack. Battle Magic is the same way. However, the importance with other spells mainly lies in getting high enough skill to cast the spells. Blessing spells increase in duration with skill but not in power, for the most part. I'll say it agian. For the same investment in magic skills, an Infiltrator only gets 2 more per magic skill plus 2 more in Spellcraft compared to a Servile. The Servile gets larger bonuses to melee stats. The Servile gets 1/3 more HP, while the Infiltrator gets only 1/6 more Essence.

Quote: Originally written by Dikiyoba: does anything still do a non-splash acid attack or has that been removed from the game? Good question. It has, in fact, been removed from the game.

Quote: Originally written by Delaying Tactictian: So quarantines are good when used to define the boundaries of a chapter (A2, G4) but bad when used to define the boundaries of a less explicit chapter (A4)? Okay. I am talking about quarantines specifically, not just any kind of barrier or boundary. E/A 2 thus did not have any quarantines. I'm willing to give a pass to E/A 1 ("exiling", the Abyss) as well. But E/A 3 had a quarantined continent and a quarantined province, A4 had quarantined regions, G1 had a Barred island, G3 had a quarantined island chain. G4 has a quarantined province, though that isn't so bad because you are expected to violate the quarantine. VoDT revolved around a large Forbidden area. ASR had a quarantined area (though not at the beginning). I realize that it's easier to make these kinds of games with artifical restrictions on where the player can go, but enough with the quarantines already. I don't want to have to make any comparisons to Lufia II. The problem with A4 in this regard is just how movement was restricted. In A1 and A2, you had the same area to explore but you had (for the most part) unrestricted freedom to explore as you wished. There were any number of ways to get from Northeastern Exile to the Great Cave. But in A4, every possible route but one has been totally shut down, so it feels much less open and free. That's fine with the more linear plot, but for people who were used to the old Avernum I think it felt stifling. Although G4 is handled similarly, the barriers feel much less arbitrary. First of all, it really does take a lot of effort to get through an entire region in G4; it doesn't feel like you are flying through the map and then stopping because of some random mayor. Also, the war and the tasks you are tasked with make the stopping points fit with the plot well, as opposed to A4, where justification seems more tenuous.

In G1, melee damage does 1-8. Period. I just rechecked the scripts. In G4, The Oozing Blade does physical damage. Period. You can look in the scripts. Its ability is just a copy of the Broadsword ability with acid splash. You are right about the acid damage in G3, but that has been changed. Rotghroth damage also changed from acid+splash to physical+splash (and even the comments in the script file changed to reflecet this). (Rotghroths do have 50% resistance to physical damage, which is unusually high, AND 3 points in Parry, but those reductions will affect all weapons.) Next!

Quote: Originally written by Ephesos: the same section of Avernum used in 1, 2, and 4 Section of Avernum? That's pretty much all of Avernum proper. This is well-established. Quote: I'd also like to see an explanation for how Fort Ganrick, Grindstone, Fort Monastery, and their ilk keep messing up the continuity of the game. They don't. Fort Monastery is new, and Fort Ganrick was described even in E2 as a temporary construction built solely to hold off the goblins and nephils north of Draco. Grindstone is odd only because such villages usually get a special node with a dialog box rather than an actual town. I would, however, still like to know what the heck happened to Fort Saffron during the Empire War.

Things I do not want to see: - Quarantines - Rentar-Ihrno - A new humanoid race or culture with a religious ritual that involves touching the surface of three pools of water - Clawbugs - Pylons

First off, magic is overpowered. Magic is frequently overpowered in CRPGs and I think there have been a few overpowered bits in most of Jeff's games. I also think I know why that is. Geneforge 1 was an exception to this rule. There were 12 spells, compared to 30-60 in other Spiderweb games. Creations were way more powerful. G2 toned down creations a little and added more spells which were wayyyy more powerful, and did not balance magic to compensate. Nobody noticed because the brokenness of Parry was far more obvious. In G1, weapons did 1-8 while spells did 1-5, 1-6, 1-7... weapons had Quick Action AND Anatomy. And there were fewer enemy resistances all around, certainly including armor. This was very balanced, because melee opened you up to opponent's melee attacks under that AP system, plus it was less tactically flexible. Now weapons do 1-4 or 1-5 while spells and creation breath range from 1-3 to 1-10. (Yes, SoT, nothing beats 1-5.) The acid and ice blades and so on are definitely good, but I want to correct an error people keep replicating. They do NOT do special damage. They do physical damage. They cause status effects, but they only do physical damage directly. Also, Quick Action has a problem. It's inconsistent. Even at very high levels there's a chance you'll not get the second strike. That's fine as far as damage output over time goes if you're attacking, say, Matala. But if you're just trying to knock down some wingbolts, it makes your task much harder since you have to allow for a range of damage. (I actually like that, but only if it's applied to everything; the problem is that spells do extremely consistent damage, while QA does not.) At moderate levels of QA, it's a coin-flip. Assuming it's the same as A4, which it looks like, 10 QA is a 50% chance of a second strike and 20 QA is a 75% chance.

I believe you need 2 points in Fire Shaping.

Apple Vlish come equipped with Bluefang, the latest in telepathic networking, and a motion sensor with an optional levitation attachment.

Cupertino, 2 December -- Apple unveiled the newest in their line of color-coordinated computers, the Vlish, today. "Steve Jobs saw the success of the Nintendo Wii, and was furious that we had been scooped on a new marketing gimmick unrelated to technology, having a weird product name. So he created the Vlish," an anonymous employee said. The Vlish comes in three colors -- tentacle burgundy, terror olive drab, and submission puce.

Their melee attacks should be almost exactly the same, except for the poison inflicted by the wingbolt. That is another bonus, it's true. The damage gap also sounds huger than expected. Do you have more training in Magic Shaping than Fire Shaping? EDIT: Vlish, I'm confused. Wingbolts actually have slightly more physical resistance ("armor") than kyshakks, 40% vs 30%. But neither creation has any resistance whatsoever to ice, fire, acid, or poison. None. Have you actually tested this or is it just an impression?

They are extremely similar. Wingbolts start a few levels higher and have slightly more energy, though not by much. They are down about 300 HP, though as mentioned they have better resistance to energy attacks (80% vs 50% for the kyshakk). Their breath attack will always be a little bit stronger, but lacks the lightning aura effect. I'd vote wingbolt for the simple fact that in a duel, the wingbolt would beat the kyshakk every time.

Well, it makes sense that they can't wait around forever, though it does sound unplanned. The other one though, there are warnings about exitzone all over the place.

The experience reward is exactly the same, which is why it is in italics.

I don't think rotghroths were ever "banned," though there were probably comments in G2 that all the new Barzite creations were illegal. Certainly Drakons and Gazers are banned.

http://minmax.ermarian.net/g4/ It's bare bones at the moment. But for those of you wondering about the picayune deatils of reputation -- or about how you can get both the Ring of Eye's Purity and the Stasis Shield without giving up disgusting munchkin min-maxing -- you might be interested in my Task & Reputation Guide. It's not quite polished yet, but all the data is there. (...yes, for the three weeks that I am in the middle of the woods with no car, I have too much time on my hands, it's true.)

I'm a little surprised that you would even consider rating A4 over G4. I don't hate A4, but really -- what's the comparison?

Unfortunately, Shock Troopers and Warriors are just worse, albeit minutely. Given that a shaping style character shouldn't be meleeing, the Shock Trooper is basically a Lifecrafter with worse magic, but slightly better HP and Parry. However, unless you regularly pump shaper Endurance much above 8, the HP difference is worth about 1 point of Endurance, whereas the magic difference is worth about 4 points (taking Spellcraft into account). Lifecrafter wins. If we use the paradigm that pumping shaping skills is not worthwhile, the Warrior has no advantages whatsoever over the Servile, but he gets the same -4 in magic and loses 1/3 of his spell energy. Bzzt! Servile wins.

It's a very good game, and a lot of thought and energy went into its design and execution. That's also true of a number of other Spidweb games, though, certainly including at least Exile 2, Nethergate, and Geneforge 1.

Quote: Originally written by Servile Synergy: the stronger magic of the Infiltrator felt more effective and satisfying to me overlall than the slightly stronger battle ability of the Servile AUGGHH so misleading! The Infiltrator's magic bonus boils down to about +4 levels of damage/duration/etc per spell compared to a Servile. This is not that big. The Servile's melee bonus over an Infiltrator is quite huge though, including +5 or so in Quick Action and Parry and the HP bonus. Actually, what makes an Infiltrator tempting to ME is the better essence -- 7/8, halfway between 6/8 servile and 8/8 lifecrafter. But I think the other two classes are still better. Quote: Originally written by Servile Synergy: I think it is also because fairly low numbers in several Battle categories are effective. This is actually a much-ignored point that is worth paying attention to. Melee weapons get high base bonuses from the weapons themselves late in the game. +20 for the Puresteel Broadsword. Spells never get ANY base bonuses outside of your knowledge of the spell. So Aura of Flames gets Up to Spellcraft + Battle Magic + 3, while melee attacks get up to Str + Melee Weapons + 20.

Quote: —Alorael, who thinks perhaps the problem is different lifecrafter builds. Since you really don't need so much shaping, especially at high levels, why are the lifecrafters turning into glass cannons (or maybe glass leash holders)? The skills that really help you not die (as opposed to kill things with a sword) are no harder for lifecrafters than serviles. Quoted for emphasis! This is what I should have said in fewer words. Listen to Alorael.

Quote: Originally written by Randomizer: While they all have the same initial endurance the fighting classes should get more health per level than the shaping. I checked and a sevile starts with 50% health at base and has a better multiplier so it adds up quickly. See Classes . The base stats are misleading, because each class gets HP (and Energy, and Essence) bonuses that are independent of level and class multiplier and Int/End. All classes get a flat 10 Essence to start with, but for HP they are different. Serviles get 30, and Lifecrafters get 20. The relative difference for points from levels and Endurance is about 10 for Serviles vs 7 for Lifecrafters. It might seem like 50% because you put more points there for your Servile. However, that's because you put more points there. Quote: It adds up since you need skill points for intelligence and shaping that a servile will use to get a 400+ health by chapter 4 with augmentation and essence armor. As SoT commented, what matters is how you use it and whether it's needed. If a Lifecrafter can get along without 400 health, it's not a disadvantage. But again, if your Servile has 400 health your Lifecrafter can certainly have 250. Given the lack of need to pump shaping I don't see why a Lifecrafter would have fewer skill points to blow on HP than a Servile would.

Something I often reflect on, in the midst of my inane analyses, is how incredibly similar the classes are. Really, the differences between the classes, even Servile vs Lifecrafter, are extremely minute as classes go in most games. They can all do everything, and the difference in effectiveness at any given task isn't even that big. They can all do everything well, some can just do some things a little better. This is of course the result of Jeff's preference for freeform, unrestricted character skill systems. I happen to prefer a few sharply distinct options, which is probably why I go to such lengths to analyze the nearly identical classes we do have.

1) There are some gross exaggerations and misstatements floating around here. The Servile does not have "absurdly" more health than the Lifecrafter. It has about 1/2 more health. They even start with the same Endurance. It has a much easier time getting a high Parry, but Parry doesn't reduce damage as much as it did in A4 even. So it's ridiculous to say the Servile is really that much more survivable. You might not pay as much attention to a Lifecrafter's health, but if so, that's because you don't need to, not because you can't. 2) Jeff, pumping the shaping skills does make for considerably more powerful 1st- and 2nd-tier creations. Artila and Cryoa get a lot out of them. However, because the 4th- and 5th-tier creations (plus Drayks) start at such high levels and have such high HP and Energy bonuses and attack skills, the effects on those creations are greatly mitigated. Across the board, HP is only fractionally better, Energy is meaningless for many of those creations anyway, and attack strength goes up by a tiny percentage even when you pump skills to 10. Ramping up damage multipliers for their attack types in G4 helped them A LOT -- it made them useful, rather than worse than Vlish. But when they have a base level around 30, a high base attack skill and sometimes even a Strength bonus, they are going to start out with 30 or 40 levels of attack strength. That only goes up by 1 level per 2 experience levels of the creation... not a very large increase. 3) DV, you keep repeating the benefits of using a Servile but you have not done anything to discredit the benefits of using a Lifecrafter that SoT, Khoth, and others have mentioned. The Servile and Lifecrafter are similar in power, each with different sorts of flexibility that allow an answer to most any situation. I'm willing to go out on a limb and say that. They are balanced, much more balanced than Agents and Shapers ever were!