Slariton

Based on the trainer prices I dug up, I'm changing my strategy. I'm going to avoid as many trainable skills as possible, instead relying on trait bonuses with Str and Dex for weapon damage. For the tank this will be relatively easy, since Strength, Dex, and Gymnastics are all untrainable. The mages can start training pretty soon, just after Cotra, and since the Spells skills aren't trainable I'll just diversify those a bit earlier. And picking up Luck earlier is probably a good idea anyway.

I'm less sure what to do about the archer's archery -- can I get by on traits? At level 6 I'll have 3 bows and 5 sharpshooter... maybe pumping dex alone will be sufficient. The other question is Lore and First Aid, which are worse values...

Based on the trainer prices I dug up, I'm changing my strategy. I'm going to avoid as many trainable skills as possible, instead relying on trait bonuses with Str and Dex for weapon damage. For the tank this will be relatively easy, since Strength, Dex, and Gymnastics are all untrainable. The mages can start training pretty soon, just after Cotra, and since the Spells skills aren't trainable I'll just diversify those a bit earlier. And picking up Luck earlier is probably a good idea anyway.

I'm less sure what to do about the archer's archery -- can I get by on traits? At level 6 I'll have 3 bows and 5 sharpshooter... maybe pumping dex alone will be sufficient. The other question is Lore and First Aid, which are worse values...

I went and dug this up with a little cut-and-paste research. In case it's useful to someone else starting out, these seem to be the best training options.

COTRA

Arcane Lore @ 1000 (1000 ea)

Spellcraft @ 2000 (666 ea)

First Aid @ 800 (800 ea)

Magery @ 1500 (375 ea?)

DUVNO

Nature Lore @ 1120 (1120 ea)

SILVAR

Melee, pole @ 1800 (450 ea)

Hardiness @ 1800 (1800 ea)

Defense @ 1800 (900 ea)

Quick Strike @ 1800 (600 ea)

Quick Action @ 1800 (1800 ea)

Parry @ 1800 (? ea)

Blademaster @ 1800 (600 ea?)

ALMARIA

Tool Use @ 2800 (2800 ea)

CAMP SAMUELS

Bows @ 960 (240 ea)

Throws @ 800 (200 ea)

Sharpshooter @ 800 (266 ea?)

FORT REMOTE

Resistance @ 1800 (? ea)

Magical Efficiency @ 2400 (? ea)

The per-point cost is really the important part, for any skills you would be training in anyway. I've heard there's less surplus gold in A4, so I'm trying to figure out the right balance to strike...

Magery and Spellcraft are no-brainers. Bows and archery are no-brainers for anyone who's not a dedicated archer -- given their high value they are even tempting for a main archer. Melee is also tempting, and I think with the right combination of traits even doable. Defense, Parry, and Blademaster are probably doable as well. Quick Strike is a no-brainer, as is Resistance. Tool Use is useless, Quick Action and Hardiness are questionable at best. I'm not sure about the Lores and First Aid.

Untrainable skills: Str/Dex/Int/End, Luck, Mage Spells, Priest Spells, Gymnastics

Riposte, Anatomy, Lethal Blow have trainable prereqs

I went and dug this up with a little cut-and-paste research. In case it's useful to someone else starting out, these seem to be the best training options.

COTRA

Arcane Lore @ 1000 (1000 ea)

Spellcraft @ 2000 (666 ea)

First Aid @ 800 (800 ea)

Magery @ 1500 (375 ea?)

DUVNO

Nature Lore @ 1120 (1120 ea)

SILVAR

Melee, pole @ 1800 (450 ea)

Hardiness @ 1800 (1800 ea)

Defense @ 1800 (900 ea)

Quick Strike @ 1800 (600 ea)

Quick Action @ 1800 (1800 ea)

Parry @ 1800 (? ea)

Blademaster @ 1800 (600 ea?)

ALMARIA

Tool Use @ 2800 (2800 ea)

CAMP SAMUELS

Bows @ 960 (240 ea)

Throws @ 800 (200 ea)

Sharpshooter @ 800 (266 ea?)

FORT REMOTE

Resistance @ 1800 (? ea)

Magical Efficiency @ 2400 (? ea)

The per-point cost is really the important part, for any skills you would be training in anyway. I've heard there's less surplus gold in A4, so I'm trying to figure out the right balance to strike...

Magery and Spellcraft are no-brainers. Bows and archery are no-brainers for anyone who's not a dedicated archer -- given their high value they are even tempting for a main archer. Melee is also tempting, and I think with the right combination of traits even doable. Defense, Parry, and Blademaster are probably doable as well. Quick Strike is a no-brainer, as is Resistance. Tool Use is useless, Quick Action and Hardiness are questionable at best. I'm not sure about the Lores and First Aid.

Untrainable skills: Str/Dex/Int/End, Luck, Mage Spells, Priest Spells, Gymnastics

Riposte, Anatomy, Lethal Blow have trainable prereqs

Here's what I'm currently running, with some explanation I left out before. I suspect my opinions may change by the time I finish -- unlike the rest of you, I have the disadvantage of not having seen anything past Fort Draco!

Thing -- Nephil, Divinely Touched, Elite Warrior

Human Torch -- Nephil, Divinely Touched, Deadeye

Invisible Girl -- Nephil, Divinely Touched, Pure Spirit

Mr. Fantastic -- Nephil, Divinely Touched, Natural Mage

(Hey... I had to explain those creepy spandex outfits somehow! Poo is right.)

I have restricted my skill point placement to relatively few abilities, sacrificing skills that make little difference early on in order to get more out of trainers later. I have probably done this more than is practical, given the always high cost of trainers... does anyone have any more information about who teaches what where for how much? I am assuming, of course, that there is no 300gp/point Silverlocke cheating factory in this game...

Either way it doesn't really hurt me. Priests, for example, don't really need high spell power early. So I also concentrated First Aid and both Lore skills in Invisible Girl -- they are too useful to ignore, but that way I can buy them later for the others. Mr. Fantastic, of course, got Tool Use; like Vlish I like to ignore that skill so I just gave him 12 from the start. As Nephils, both casters have a passable enough bow attack to get us through the easy early levels. Bolt of Fire doesn't fry things by itself, but it doesn't need to with bow support from the rest of the team.

Human Torch (I look forward to giving him a flaming bow, if that's one of the "elemental bows" I keep hearing about) is freest to spend his points; I pump Bows and Dex and then start on Sharpshooter. Once I get that up a bit, I have been saving up his skill points -- he already has a fantastic attack for the early area, and I'm not sure if I'll want to pump it right away, or wait for the Cotra trainer and get him some other skills.

Thing gets a bunch of Quick Action, then Dex and Str and Gymnastics as soon as it becomes available. I've found that I don't really need to buy any Melee skill, given the Blademaster bonuses from both of his traits. His most important function is defensive; by ignoring Melee I improve his defense and also open up the possibility of training it later. We'll see if that lasts.

Depending on the location of trainers and $ availability, and my patience, and some point the skills will spread out; everyone gets at least a level of priest to get more benefit from first aid, the archer will probably get a little more magic invested in him, Thing will pick up Melee and the advanced fighting skills, the mages will share some tricks and pump their magic stats.

As for the mage/priest armor issue: I thought about giving my priest Natural Mage over Pure Spirit, but after skimming the item script, encumbrance seems to be much rarer than I expected. Most of the best helms, shields, boots, and gauntlets don't have any; for armor, the spellcasting bonus armors aren't encumbering, and the two weaker Quicksilver armors, which I suspect my mages will end up wearing, are both usable as well. (No amount of protection is going to make me pass up natural 10 AP. OK, almost no amount...)

Here's what I'm currently running, with some explanation I left out before. I suspect my opinions may change by the time I finish -- unlike the rest of you, I have the disadvantage of not having seen anything past Fort Draco!

Thing -- Nephil, Divinely Touched, Elite Warrior

Human Torch -- Nephil, Divinely Touched, Deadeye

Invisible Girl -- Nephil, Divinely Touched, Pure Spirit

Mr. Fantastic -- Nephil, Divinely Touched, Natural Mage

(Hey... I had to explain those creepy spandex outfits somehow! Poo is right.)

I have restricted my skill point placement to relatively few abilities, sacrificing skills that make little difference early on in order to get more out of trainers later. I have probably done this more than is practical, given the always high cost of trainers... does anyone have any more information about who teaches what where for how much? I am assuming, of course, that there is no 300gp/point Silverlocke cheating factory in this game...

Either way it doesn't really hurt me. Priests, for example, don't really need high spell power early. So I also concentrated First Aid and both Lore skills in Invisible Girl -- they are too useful to ignore, but that way I can buy them later for the others. Mr. Fantastic, of course, got Tool Use; like Vlish I like to ignore that skill so I just gave him 12 from the start. As Nephils, both casters have a passable enough bow attack to get us through the easy early levels. Bolt of Fire doesn't fry things by itself, but it doesn't need to with bow support from the rest of the team.

Human Torch (I look forward to giving him a flaming bow, if that's one of the "elemental bows" I keep hearing about) is freest to spend his points; I pump Bows and Dex and then start on Sharpshooter. Once I get that up a bit, I have been saving up his skill points -- he already has a fantastic attack for the early area, and I'm not sure if I'll want to pump it right away, or wait for the Cotra trainer and get him some other skills.

Thing gets a bunch of Quick Action, then Dex and Str and Gymnastics as soon as it becomes available. I've found that I don't really need to buy any Melee skill, given the Blademaster bonuses from both of his traits. His most important function is defensive; by ignoring Melee I improve his defense and also open up the possibility of training it later. We'll see if that lasts.

Depending on the location of trainers and $ availability, and my patience, and some point the skills will spread out; everyone gets at least a level of priest to get more benefit from first aid, the archer will probably get a little more magic invested in him, Thing will pick up Melee and the advanced fighting skills, the mages will share some tricks and pump their magic stats.

As for the mage/priest armor issue: I thought about giving my priest Natural Mage over Pure Spirit, but after skimming the item script, encumbrance seems to be much rarer than I expected. Most of the best helms, shields, boots, and gauntlets don't have any; for armor, the spellcasting bonus armors aren't encumbering, and the two weaker Quicksilver armors, which I suspect my mages will end up wearing, are both usable as well. (No amount of protection is going to make me pass up natural 10 AP. OK, almost no amount...)

1. Deadeye, yeah. Whee, I'm tired.

I would never use Deadeye instead of Divinely Touched. Use it IN ADDITION to DT. The effects are cumulative. That combination will give you +15 to Sharpshooter at level 32. There are certainly arguments to be made in favor of EW or NM ahead of it. I'm using it, though; here's why:

I'm running a party of a tank, an archer, a priest, and a mage, somewhat along the lines of what Vlish is doing. (I keep starting over with revised character plans based on new data about the game engine, so I haven't gotten very far... need to stop doing that

Having a second character who is primarily a melee fighter makes the tank much less of an effective defense, unless I also make the second character a tank -- a melee fighter has to be in close range to be useful, after all. And if I make a second tank, my offensive ability drops a little bit, without my ability to defend really improving. Also, since enemies on Torment have so much HP, it's helpful to have all my allies concentrate their fire on one enemy; this is slightly easier to do with only one melee-range attacker.

A third mage would be tempting, but increasing my magic reserves by 50% seems less useful to me than having a consistently strong supporting attacker I can use without having to worry about conserving MP. Plus, somebody said there are some things archery is the best offense against. It increases my options.

2. I think the reason people think Sliths are stupid is because the vast majority of the Sliths you encounter are hostile, and at least half of the friendly ones are grunting laborers with limited English vocabulary who react to you the same way that every single serf/refugee/child/etc. extra in Ex/Av does, by acting vaguely confused and pointing at their leader.

3. And I feel your frustration over the 2 icon choices. I feel it a LOT.

Although the skills (and traits, and races) systems in all of Jeff's games are extremely well-implemented, I have never really liked the design. (Exceptions: I like the 'collective skill' design of mage lore, and I loved the spell circles in Nethergate.) While Jeff's games are superbly well-balanced on the whole, that is not as true of his skill systems. Exile, for example, had five skills that were almost completely useless (HP, Bows, Throwing, Poison, Item Lore) and several that were overpowered (20 Luck made you immortal). The XP "penalty" of traits (and of extra creatures in Geneforge) has been broken from the beginning, in Exile II.

From a Positive Play Experience oriented point of view, having characters with distinct and unique abilities is good, as it helps ensure that all characters will be useful and fulfill some kind of useful role for the party. In other words: classes and specialization are good. Specialization fosters discussions about "I found it helpful to have these abilities; I used my Valkyrie to cast support spells freeing up my Priest's SP for combat" rather than these all-out optimization projects of ours, and squinting at the screen to figure out whether to pump Spellcraft or Magery first, etc. I certainly don't HAVE to make a party of four bow-toting Nephils just because it's optimal -- but it doesn't HAVE to be optimal, either! While the systems have gotten more balanced and focused -- the switch to four PCs in Av1 reflects this -- they have also gotten a lot more removed from reality: what the heck is the difference (in terms of what you are practicing) between Spellcraft and Magery? Quick Action vs. Quick Strike? Please.

--slarty

1. Deadeye, yeah. Whee, I'm tired.

I would never use Deadeye instead of Divinely Touched. Use it IN ADDITION to DT. The effects are cumulative. That combination will give you +15 to Sharpshooter at level 32. There are certainly arguments to be made in favor of EW or NM ahead of it. I'm using it, though; here's why:

I'm running a party of a tank, an archer, a priest, and a mage, somewhat along the lines of what Vlish is doing. (I keep starting over with revised character plans based on new data about the game engine, so I haven't gotten very far... need to stop doing that

Having a second character who is primarily a melee fighter makes the tank much less of an effective defense, unless I also make the second character a tank -- a melee fighter has to be in close range to be useful, after all. And if I make a second tank, my offensive ability drops a little bit, without my ability to defend really improving. Also, since enemies on Torment have so much HP, it's helpful to have all my allies concentrate their fire on one enemy; this is slightly easier to do with only one melee-range attacker.

A third mage would be tempting, but increasing my magic reserves by 50% seems less useful to me than having a consistently strong supporting attacker I can use without having to worry about conserving MP. Plus, somebody said there are some things archery is the best offense against. It increases my options.

2. I think the reason people think Sliths are stupid is because the vast majority of the Sliths you encounter are hostile, and at least half of the friendly ones are grunting laborers with limited English vocabulary who react to you the same way that every single serf/refugee/child/etc. extra in Ex/Av does, by acting vaguely confused and pointing at their leader.

3. And I feel your frustration over the 2 icon choices. I feel it a LOT.

Although the skills (and traits, and races) systems in all of Jeff's games are extremely well-implemented, I have never really liked the design. (Exceptions: I like the 'collective skill' design of mage lore, and I loved the spell circles in Nethergate.) While Jeff's games are superbly well-balanced on the whole, that is not as true of his skill systems. Exile, for example, had five skills that were almost completely useless (HP, Bows, Throwing, Poison, Item Lore) and several that were overpowered (20 Luck made you immortal). The XP "penalty" of traits (and of extra creatures in Geneforge) has been broken from the beginning, in Exile II.

From a Positive Play Experience oriented point of view, having characters with distinct and unique abilities is good, as it helps ensure that all characters will be useful and fulfill some kind of useful role for the party. In other words: classes and specialization are good. Specialization fosters discussions about "I found it helpful to have these abilities; I used my Valkyrie to cast support spells freeing up my Priest's SP for combat" rather than these all-out optimization projects of ours, and squinting at the screen to figure out whether to pump Spellcraft or Magery first, etc. I certainly don't HAVE to make a party of four bow-toting Nephils just because it's optimal -- but it doesn't HAVE to be optimal, either! While the systems have gotten more balanced and focused -- the switch to four PCs in Av1 reflects this -- they have also gotten a lot more removed from reality: what the heck is the difference (in terms of what you are practicing) between Spellcraft and Magery? Quick Action vs. Quick Strike? Please.

--slarty

Minornktaurs?

By underground, do you mean underunderground?

I doubt Sharpshooter adds anything else. It's priced at 10%, whereas Elite W, N Mage and Pure S are 15% with another medium bonus or small bonus + ability.

N Mage + Pure S seems entirely worse than either of those + D Touched. Both the manual and Synergy's testing suggest that _ Spells, Spellcraft and Magery have equal effects on spell power, and Efficiency is pretty bad. Also, don't forget D Touched + Sharpshooter, which could easily replace one of the DT+EWs.

I doubt Sharpshooter adds anything else. It's priced at 10%, whereas Elite W, N Mage and Pure S are 15% with another medium bonus or small bonus + ability.

N Mage + Pure S seems entirely worse than either of those + D Touched. Both the manual and Synergy's testing suggest that _ Spells, Spellcraft and Magery have equal effects on spell power, and Efficiency is pretty bad. Also, don't forget D Touched + Sharpshooter, which could easily replace one of the DT+EWs.

I just did some testing to find out how trait bonuses change as you gain levels, and it turns out the level 1 bonuses are a little bit misleading. There are basically three tracks:

(1) Weak: +1 point every 10 levels, starting at level 0

(2) Medium: +1 point every 6 levels, starting at level 0 with 1 additional point

(3) Strong: +1 point every 4 levels, starting at level 0

Most bonuses follow the medium track; the only weak bonuses are to First Aid (Nimble Fingers), Gymnastics (Nephil), and Magical Efficiency (Natural Mage). There are also only three strong bonuses, and they are all from Divinely Touched!

The main significance of this is that Divinely Touched is much better than it looks. For the first 15 levels it isn't any better than the other traits. But at level 32, it seems that a Divinely Touched character will have +9 bonuses to Blademaster, Sharpshooter, and Magery. Elite Warriors, Natural Mages, and so on at the same level will have just a respectable +6 bonus. That's the equivalent of a MASSIVE number of skill points, especially if you're buying those skills anyway. Hmm, another reason not to take Fast on Feet

For non-skill-based bonuses, the only one that shows up on the character sheet is the Slith bonus to Resist Fire. This is a flat 10% that never goes up -- not a very good bonus at all. I haven't been able to substantiate the defensive bonus claims of Divinely Touched, Fast on Feet, Thick Skin, or Good Constitution, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

Q: Has anyone observed how these bonuses interact with the 30 point limit that reportedly applies to some (or all?) buyable skills like Tool Use?

I just did some testing to find out how trait bonuses change as you gain levels, and it turns out the level 1 bonuses are a little bit misleading. There are basically three tracks:

(1) Weak: +1 point every 10 levels, starting at level 0

(2) Medium: +1 point every 6 levels, starting at level 0 with 1 additional point

(3) Strong: +1 point every 4 levels, starting at level 0

Most bonuses follow the medium track; the only weak bonuses are to First Aid (Nimble Fingers), Gymnastics (Nephil), and Magical Efficiency (Natural Mage). There are also only three strong bonuses, and they are all from Divinely Touched!

The main significance of this is that Divinely Touched is much better than it looks. For the first 15 levels it isn't any better than the other traits. But at level 32, it seems that a Divinely Touched character will have +9 bonuses to Blademaster, Sharpshooter, and Magery. Elite Warriors, Natural Mages, and so on at the same level will have just a respectable +6 bonus. That's the equivalent of a MASSIVE number of skill points, especially if you're buying those skills anyway. Hmm, another reason not to take Fast on Feet

For non-skill-based bonuses, the only one that shows up on the character sheet is the Slith bonus to Resist Fire. This is a flat 10% that never goes up -- not a very good bonus at all. I haven't been able to substantiate the defensive bonus claims of Divinely Touched, Fast on Feet, Thick Skin, or Good Constitution, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

Q: Has anyone observed how these bonuses interact with the 30 point limit that reportedly applies to some (or all?) buyable skills like Tool Use?

*pets his algorithm* I had faith in you, my pretty!

*ahem* Anyway -- yay for testing Haste, btw, does not give +4 AP, haste gives +50% AP, calculated after all other bonuses and penalties to AP are applied. And you can indeed equip 3 +1 items -- 1 chest armor, 1 footwear, and 1 spear or shield. So you should be able to get a natural 14 AP and a hasted 21 AP. It takes three times the investment of getting to 10/15 AP, but hey...

*pets his algorithm* I had faith in you, my pretty!

*ahem* Anyway -- yay for testing Haste, btw, does not give +4 AP, haste gives +50% AP, calculated after all other bonuses and penalties to AP are applied. And you can indeed equip 3 +1 items -- 1 chest armor, 1 footwear, and 1 spear or shield. So you should be able to get a natural 14 AP and a hasted 21 AP. It takes three times the investment of getting to 10/15 AP, but hey...

Ahh, that was just one of the high-powered damage messages from MUDs I played; it always made me laugh. 'You graze the lamia.' 'You *disembowel* the lamia.' And so on.

Ahh, that was just one of the high-powered damage messages from MUDs I played; it always made me laugh. 'You graze the lamia.' 'You *disembowel* the lamia.' And so on.

You *defenestrate* the nephil shaman!

You *defenestrate* the nephil shaman!

*nod* I know what you mean, kuc. Somehow RPGs bring out the research scientist in me. I have notes on my computer covering years and years of these little projects. Quick Strike seems nice and simple compared with trying to figure out how stat increases were handed out in Dragon Warrior III... or how the heck anything worked in Dungeon Master. I loved that game, but its engine often surprised me, to say the least.

*nod* I know what you mean, kuc. Somehow RPGs bring out the research scientist in me. I have notes on my computer covering years and years of these little projects. Quick Strike seems nice and simple compared with trying to figure out how stat increases were handed out in Dragon Warrior III... or how the heck anything worked in Dungeon Master. I loved that game, but its engine often surprised me, to say the least.

But there's a lot of anecdotal evidence for bless. First, it seems pretty obvious that it makes numbers go up significantly Second, one of Jeff's big pet peeves about other RPGs, when he first made Exile, was that blessing effects were usually ineffectual. I doubt he's reversed his position on that one.

But there's a lot of anecdotal evidence for bless. First, it seems pretty obvious that it makes numbers go up significantly Second, one of Jeff's big pet peeves about other RPGs, when he first made Exile, was that blessing effects were usually ineffectual. I doubt he's reversed his position on that one.

Synergy -- great testing. Important question: In your non-hasted test WHAT is the difference between the PCs you tested at QS 3 and 4, and the QS 7 PC? The results are completely different for the QS 7 guy. While the QS 3 and 4 results conform to my algorithm, more or less, he is way off from them as well as from my own QS 7 results. Are you SURE he doesn't have Fast on Feet or weird equipment or... I dunno, anything else?