ex post slarto

Thanks for the reminder Synergy, I was going to account for your test but forgot.

Hmm.

Crap

I'm not sure. I don't think level is a factor. My testing was done with a naked human, with no traits, and no stats improved except for the requisite Dex and Melee, and QS itself. Testing through 10 QS was done at level 10 (though this produced the same results as at level 1, at least for QS 5). Above that I tested at level 28. Also, he didn't fight, he just ended his turn repeatedly.

I think it must be the case that another skill can also provide bonus AP. I am going to guess it is a separate process, since my algorithm works pretty well in a controlled environment -- though that could be wrong. Your results aren't that far from my predicted results shifted up by somewhat less than 1 AP:

You had approximately:

09 - 41%

10 - 53%

11 - 6%

Algorithm would predict:

08 - 42%

09 - 45%

10 - 12%

That makes me think that perhaps there is another bonus AP at work with a fairly high chance of succeeding. Could Quick Action do this?

I was thinking of the fine leather, focus crystals, and so on. Crafting! That's the word I was looking for.

Also, since bows can be used at close range, I'd rather just pump one of the archery skills. Melee or pole skill of 6 or whatever, with little or no investment in QA or other melee skills, doesn't seem like it would be better than a well-developed bow attack.

Also, since bows can be used at close range, I'd rather just pump one of the archery skills. Melee or pole skill of 6 or whatever, with little or no investment in QA or other melee skills, doesn't seem like it would be better than a well-developed bow attack.

With FoF and a few points in QS, you have three chances to get a bonus point; you only need two to succeed in order to get to 10 AP. With FoF + 4 QS for example, you'll get +2 AP or better about 20% of the time. With FoF + 8 QS you'll get +2 or better about 40% of the time.

This isn't a -horrible- deal, I'd just much rather use the items and save the skill points for something useful.

With FoF and a few points in QS, you have three chances to get a bonus point; you only need two to succeed in order to get to 10 AP. With FoF + 4 QS for example, you'll get +2 AP or better about 20% of the time. With FoF + 8 QS you'll get +2 or better about 40% of the time.

This isn't a -horrible- deal, I'd just much rather use the items and save the skill points for something useful.

I know it's simpler this time around. Nonetheless, anyone have a list of the possible recipes, so I don't squander my ingredients?

I did some more testing and I believe I can now state precisely what Quick Strike does. On each PC's turn, he gets two independent chances to get +1 AP. Each chance is very close to 5% per point of Quick Strike.

This does not explain everything -- there was a little more variation than I would expect, and with 20 Quick Strike I still got 9 AP VERY rarely -- but it works with the averages. This would predict the following:

Quick Strike score -- % +0, % +1, % +2

0 -- 100%, 0%, 0%

5 -- 56%, 38%, 6%

10 -- 25%, 50%, 25%

15 -- 6%, 38%, 56%

20 -- 0%, 0%, 100%

If there is a maximum chance cap of say 99% that would explain the 9 AP scores I saw with 20 QS.

If you only care about getting one bonus AP from Quick Strike, the increased chance of getting +1 or greater for each point of QS you buy begins just below 10% for the first point of QS and drops about 0.5% per point until it ends just above 0% for the 20th point.

Fast on Feet seems to provide another independent check for +1 AP, but this one is always 50%. In combination with QS this halves the chance of getting zero bonus AP. So 5 QS + FoF means you're about 72% likely to get a bonus. 10 QS + FoF means you're about 88% likely to get a bonus. In that case, you spent 19 skill points to get an extra attack 22% of the time... then you spent 31 skill points to get one 16% of the time.

IMHO, this is further evidence that archers and spellcasters should restrict themselves to the AP-boosting items. It's harder to use extra turns, tactically, if they're inconsistent. Melee fighters on the other hand already rely on a number of other fluctuating random factors, especially Quick Action, so the new inconsistency is insignificant.

I did some more testing and I believe I can now state precisely what Quick Strike does. On each PC's turn, he gets two independent chances to get +1 AP. Each chance is very close to 5% per point of Quick Strike.

This does not explain everything -- there was a little more variation than I would expect, and with 20 Quick Strike I still got 9 AP VERY rarely -- but it works with the averages. This would predict the following:

Quick Strike score -- % +0, % +1, % +2

0 -- 100%, 0%, 0%

5 -- 56%, 38%, 6%

10 -- 25%, 50%, 25%

15 -- 6%, 38%, 56%

20 -- 0%, 0%, 100%

If there is a maximum chance cap of say 99% that would explain the 9 AP scores I saw with 20 QS.

If you only care about getting one bonus AP from Quick Strike, the increased chance of getting +1 or greater for each point of QS you buy begins just below 10% for the first point of QS and drops about 0.5% per point until it ends just above 0% for the 20th point.

Fast on Feet seems to provide another independent check for +1 AP, but this one is always 50%. In combination with QS this halves the chance of getting zero bonus AP. So 5 QS + FoF means you're about 72% likely to get a bonus. 10 QS + FoF means you're about 88% likely to get a bonus. In that case, you spent 19 skill points to get an extra attack 22% of the time... then you spent 31 skill points to get one 16% of the time.

IMHO, this is further evidence that archers and spellcasters should restrict themselves to the AP-boosting items. It's harder to use extra turns, tactically, if they're inconsistent. Melee fighters on the other hand already rely on a number of other fluctuating random factors, especially Quick Action, so the new inconsistency is insignificant.

1. Getting to 10 AP seems to be the only important thing. 10 AP gives you an extra action, and gets you to 15 AP when hasted for a third action. The power of bows and spells means you don't really need extra to move with. While you could layer items and skills on one character and get to 13.5 for 20 AP when hasted, that seems like a huge waste.

2. A quick look in the script confirms that there are 6 items giving +1 AP (3 armors, 1 spear, 1 shield, 1 footwear). I'm guessing there aren't duplicates in the game (one of these days I'll have to get back to playing it

3. Quick Strike is a moderately priced investment for a fighter (14 for 4, 50 for 10) but expensive for an archer without melee skill (44 for 4, 80 for 10) and prohibitive for a mage (70 for 4, 106 for 10).

Therefore: It seems like the easiest models for fairly consistent 10 AP turns would be:

2 melee warriors + 2 mages or archers: warriors get Fast on Feet, 4-6 points of Quick Strike, and 1 item; mages get 2 items

1 melee warrior + 3 mages or archers: warrior gets Fast on Feet, 8-10 points of Quick Strike; others get 2 items.

While spending 44 of your archer's skill points might not seem too bad late game (especially since it reduces the points your warrior would need to spend), going the one item route also requires having Fast on Feet instead of another advantage (likely Divinely Touched). Late game, that means about 4 levels of Sharpshooter (in addition to the phantom DT defense bonus that may or may not exist).

So I think I'm ready to start over on Torment. Unfortunately, I still can't find any *remotely* compelling reasons to use Sliths or Humans, so now I need to come up with a reason why my team will be wearing the same skimpy clothing, in strange bright colors. I think the answer is that they're superheroes. Hmm... IT'S CLOBBERIN' TIME!

Very interesting.

Defense is also supposed to affect chance to be hit, isn't it?

It's also interesting that you got an average of +1.25 AP out of 7 Quick Strike. My level 1 test with 5 Quick Strike got an average of only +0.6 AP. So either there is a strange and unspidwebby QS effect curve, or something else affects bonus AP as well -- maybe the effect is greater at higher level -- or is it possible gymnastics can give bonus AP?

...WAIT... 13.25 average AP with no boost items, were you HASTED? Detail! If AP boosting works anything like in previous engines that should multiply the bonus AP just like the regular AP. So the Quick Strike effect is closer to 1/9.

How many AP-boosting items are there in this game? I am starting to doubt the worthwhileness of investing in Quick Strike at all...

Melee gets quick action and archery doesn't. However, bonus AP (quick strike) will always help archery and will help melee more in focused battles, not so much against regular foes. (Perhaps that's different in Torment, with higher foe hp = more rounds of engagement?)

Melee base damage tends to be higher. OTOH, dex (for sharpshooter) has more benefits than strength (for blademaster), and you don't have to pump an unwanted weapon skill either.

But the targetting advantage of a bow is huge.

I dunno, I'll wait and see how it goes. But I keep thinking of the G3 agent, how putting every last point into battle magic and spellcraft made a monster, whereas simply putting most points there was a lot less effective.

I just re-checked, and Nimber Fingers *does* increase First Aid. My new character with no skill points spent (Custom class) and Nimble Fingers has 2 Tool Use and 1 First Aid.

I just re-checked, and Nimber Fingers *does* increase First Aid. My new character with no skill points spent (Custom class) and Nimble Fingers has 2 Tool Use and 1 First Aid.

Here's another question: the to-hit penalty from armor, does that apply to all attacks or just to melee combat? I know in the past it was just melee, but I have noticed a lot of the manual descriptions talking about things that affect to-hit, to-dodge, or damage for magic and archery, as well as melee.

Here's another question: the to-hit penalty from armor, does that apply to all attacks or just to melee combat? I know in the past it was just melee, but I have noticed a lot of the manual descriptions talking about things that affect to-hit, to-dodge, or damage for magic and archery, as well as melee.

EDIT: Okay, maybe there aren't any missing Well, here's the list anyway.

Nephil: Bows, Throws, Gymnastics

Slith: Pole

Elite Warrior: Parry, Blademaster

Divinely Touched: Blademaster, Magery, Sharpshooter

Natural Mage: Mage Spells, Magic Efficiency

Pure Spirit: Priest Spells, Magic Efficiency

Deadeye: Sharpshooter

Nimber Fingers: Tool Use, First Aid

Fast on Feet: (?)

Good Con: (?)

Thick Skin: (?)

Strong Will: (?)

EDIT: Okay, maybe there aren't any missing Well, here's the list anyway.

Nephil: Bows, Throws, Gymnastics

Slith: Pole

Elite Warrior: Parry, Blademaster

Divinely Touched: Blademaster, Magery, Sharpshooter

Natural Mage: Mage Spells, Magic Efficiency

Pure Spirit: Priest Spells, Magic Efficiency

Deadeye: Sharpshooter

Nimber Fingers: Tool Use, First Aid

Fast on Feet: (?)

Good Con: (?)

Thick Skin: (?)

Strong Will: (?)

I just did some quick testing involving 3 freshly created nephils: one with the Fast on Feet trait, one with 5 points in Quick Strike, and one with both. I did 20 rounds of combat, with the following results:

Fast on Feet:

AP 8: 10/20

AP 9: 10/20

Average: +0.5 AP

Quick Strike 5:

AP 8: 12/20

AP 9: 4/20

AP10: 4/20

Average: +0.6 AP

Both:

AP 8: 3/20

AP 9: 10/20

AP10: 6/20

AP11: 1/20

Average: +1.25 AP

However, I have no idea if the effect of Fast on Feet increases with level like the other traits. Can anyone confirm or deny this?

My other question concerns Divinely Touched. The trait description claims it makes you "very resistant to damage." Is that true? Is it just a hidden parry bonus, or what? How useful is the bonus?

Basically, it now seems that there are at least three traits in competition for each of my PCs:

Fast on Feet

Divinely Touched

Elite Warrior / Deadeye / Natural Mage / Pure Spirit

Fast on Feet + Quick Strike seems useful for any character, really, but even moreso when every character can easily get something out of a bow. Quick Strike might be a stretch for mages, but FoF still has potential if combined with +AP items. On the other hand, if I am making a tank, Elite Warrior and Divinely Touched both claim to provide defensive bonuses. Or do I just go all out with gymnastics?

While I'm at it, how significant is the armor use effect from Natural Mage?

I just did some quick testing involving 3 freshly created nephils: one with the Fast on Feet trait, one with 5 points in Quick Strike, and one with both. I did 20 rounds of combat, with the following results:

Fast on Feet:

AP 8: 10/20

AP 9: 10/20

Average: +0.5 AP

Quick Strike 5:

AP 8: 12/20

AP 9: 4/20

AP10: 4/20

Average: +0.6 AP

Both:

AP 8: 3/20

AP 9: 10/20

AP10: 6/20

AP11: 1/20

Average: +1.25 AP

However, I have no idea if the effect of Fast on Feet increases with level like the other traits. Can anyone confirm or deny this?

My other question concerns Divinely Touched. The trait description claims it makes you "very resistant to damage." Is that true? Is it just a hidden parry bonus, or what? How useful is the bonus?

Basically, it now seems that there are at least three traits in competition for each of my PCs:

Fast on Feet

Divinely Touched

Elite Warrior / Deadeye / Natural Mage / Pure Spirit

Fast on Feet + Quick Strike seems useful for any character, really, but even moreso when every character can easily get something out of a bow. Quick Strike might be a stretch for mages, but FoF still has potential if combined with +AP items. On the other hand, if I am making a tank, Elite Warrior and Divinely Touched both claim to provide defensive bonuses. Or do I just go all out with gymnastics?

While I'm at it, how significant is the armor use effect from Natural Mage?

Hiya Kel. *tips hat* Life is good.

Edit: on second thought, this deserves a new thread.

2 attacks consistently? I assumed that Fast on Feet was as inconsistent as ever. I remember it providing an extra AP maybe 1 in 3 or 4 rounds -- is it better now? Quick Strike, I guess, is fairly consistent with enough investment?

Why'd you skimp on spells? Easier to just find the level three ones or what?

There's a skill that gives you extre action points? Yow. Yes, that -does- sound useful...

Hmm. So pole weapons are good. I'm a little reluctant to make one of my fighters a halberdier, though, if it involves giving up a shield AND the nephil gymnastics bonus. I smell a slith priest...

Vlish: Do you mean Quick Strike? What's the difference between that and Quick Action anyway?

I have to say, I love the new First Aid implementation. It brings back the idea of strategizing in order to survive attrition over the course of an entire dungeon, something that Ex/Av never really had, and something I have rarely seen in rpgs since, oh, the late 80's.