ex post slarto

1. Deadeye, yeah. Whee, I'm tired.

I would never use Deadeye instead of Divinely Touched. Use it IN ADDITION to DT. The effects are cumulative. That combination will give you +15 to Sharpshooter at level 32. There are certainly arguments to be made in favor of EW or NM ahead of it. I'm using it, though; here's why:

I'm running a party of a tank, an archer, a priest, and a mage, somewhat along the lines of what Vlish is doing. (I keep starting over with revised character plans based on new data about the game engine, so I haven't gotten very far... need to stop doing that

Having a second character who is primarily a melee fighter makes the tank much less of an effective defense, unless I also make the second character a tank -- a melee fighter has to be in close range to be useful, after all. And if I make a second tank, my offensive ability drops a little bit, without my ability to defend really improving. Also, since enemies on Torment have so much HP, it's helpful to have all my allies concentrate their fire on one enemy; this is slightly easier to do with only one melee-range attacker.

A third mage would be tempting, but increasing my magic reserves by 50% seems less useful to me than having a consistently strong supporting attacker I can use without having to worry about conserving MP. Plus, somebody said there are some things archery is the best offense against. It increases my options.

2. I think the reason people think Sliths are stupid is because the vast majority of the Sliths you encounter are hostile, and at least half of the friendly ones are grunting laborers with limited English vocabulary who react to you the same way that every single serf/refugee/child/etc. extra in Ex/Av does, by acting vaguely confused and pointing at their leader.

3. And I feel your frustration over the 2 icon choices. I feel it a LOT.

Although the skills (and traits, and races) systems in all of Jeff's games are extremely well-implemented, I have never really liked the design. (Exceptions: I like the 'collective skill' design of mage lore, and I loved the spell circles in Nethergate.) While Jeff's games are superbly well-balanced on the whole, that is not as true of his skill systems. Exile, for example, had five skills that were almost completely useless (HP, Bows, Throwing, Poison, Item Lore) and several that were overpowered (20 Luck made you immortal). The XP "penalty" of traits (and of extra creatures in Geneforge) has been broken from the beginning, in Exile II.

From a Positive Play Experience oriented point of view, having characters with distinct and unique abilities is good, as it helps ensure that all characters will be useful and fulfill some kind of useful role for the party. In other words: classes and specialization are good. Specialization fosters discussions about "I found it helpful to have these abilities; I used my Valkyrie to cast support spells freeing up my Priest's SP for combat" rather than these all-out optimization projects of ours, and squinting at the screen to figure out whether to pump Spellcraft or Magery first, etc. I certainly don't HAVE to make a party of four bow-toting Nephils just because it's optimal -- but it doesn't HAVE to be optimal, either! While the systems have gotten more balanced and focused -- the switch to four PCs in Av1 reflects this -- they have also gotten a lot more removed from reality: what the heck is the difference (in terms of what you are practicing) between Spellcraft and Magery? Quick Action vs. Quick Strike? Please.

--slarty

1. Deadeye, yeah. Whee, I'm tired.

I would never use Deadeye instead of Divinely Touched. Use it IN ADDITION to DT. The effects are cumulative. That combination will give you +15 to Sharpshooter at level 32. There are certainly arguments to be made in favor of EW or NM ahead of it. I'm using it, though; here's why:

I'm running a party of a tank, an archer, a priest, and a mage, somewhat along the lines of what Vlish is doing. (I keep starting over with revised character plans based on new data about the game engine, so I haven't gotten very far... need to stop doing that

Having a second character who is primarily a melee fighter makes the tank much less of an effective defense, unless I also make the second character a tank -- a melee fighter has to be in close range to be useful, after all. And if I make a second tank, my offensive ability drops a little bit, without my ability to defend really improving. Also, since enemies on Torment have so much HP, it's helpful to have all my allies concentrate their fire on one enemy; this is slightly easier to do with only one melee-range attacker.

A third mage would be tempting, but increasing my magic reserves by 50% seems less useful to me than having a consistently strong supporting attacker I can use without having to worry about conserving MP. Plus, somebody said there are some things archery is the best offense against. It increases my options.

2. I think the reason people think Sliths are stupid is because the vast majority of the Sliths you encounter are hostile, and at least half of the friendly ones are grunting laborers with limited English vocabulary who react to you the same way that every single serf/refugee/child/etc. extra in Ex/Av does, by acting vaguely confused and pointing at their leader.

3. And I feel your frustration over the 2 icon choices. I feel it a LOT.

Although the skills (and traits, and races) systems in all of Jeff's games are extremely well-implemented, I have never really liked the design. (Exceptions: I like the 'collective skill' design of mage lore, and I loved the spell circles in Nethergate.) While Jeff's games are superbly well-balanced on the whole, that is not as true of his skill systems. Exile, for example, had five skills that were almost completely useless (HP, Bows, Throwing, Poison, Item Lore) and several that were overpowered (20 Luck made you immortal). The XP "penalty" of traits (and of extra creatures in Geneforge) has been broken from the beginning, in Exile II.

From a Positive Play Experience oriented point of view, having characters with distinct and unique abilities is good, as it helps ensure that all characters will be useful and fulfill some kind of useful role for the party. In other words: classes and specialization are good. Specialization fosters discussions about "I found it helpful to have these abilities; I used my Valkyrie to cast support spells freeing up my Priest's SP for combat" rather than these all-out optimization projects of ours, and squinting at the screen to figure out whether to pump Spellcraft or Magery first, etc. I certainly don't HAVE to make a party of four bow-toting Nephils just because it's optimal -- but it doesn't HAVE to be optimal, either! While the systems have gotten more balanced and focused -- the switch to four PCs in Av1 reflects this -- they have also gotten a lot more removed from reality: what the heck is the difference (in terms of what you are practicing) between Spellcraft and Magery? Quick Action vs. Quick Strike? Please.

--slarty

Minornktaurs?

By underground, do you mean underunderground?

I doubt Sharpshooter adds anything else. It's priced at 10%, whereas Elite W, N Mage and Pure S are 15% with another medium bonus or small bonus + ability.

N Mage + Pure S seems entirely worse than either of those + D Touched. Both the manual and Synergy's testing suggest that _ Spells, Spellcraft and Magery have equal effects on spell power, and Efficiency is pretty bad. Also, don't forget D Touched + Sharpshooter, which could easily replace one of the DT+EWs.

I doubt Sharpshooter adds anything else. It's priced at 10%, whereas Elite W, N Mage and Pure S are 15% with another medium bonus or small bonus + ability.

N Mage + Pure S seems entirely worse than either of those + D Touched. Both the manual and Synergy's testing suggest that _ Spells, Spellcraft and Magery have equal effects on spell power, and Efficiency is pretty bad. Also, don't forget D Touched + Sharpshooter, which could easily replace one of the DT+EWs.

I just did some testing to find out how trait bonuses change as you gain levels, and it turns out the level 1 bonuses are a little bit misleading. There are basically three tracks:

(1) Weak: +1 point every 10 levels, starting at level 0

(2) Medium: +1 point every 6 levels, starting at level 0 with 1 additional point

(3) Strong: +1 point every 4 levels, starting at level 0

Most bonuses follow the medium track; the only weak bonuses are to First Aid (Nimble Fingers), Gymnastics (Nephil), and Magical Efficiency (Natural Mage). There are also only three strong bonuses, and they are all from Divinely Touched!

The main significance of this is that Divinely Touched is much better than it looks. For the first 15 levels it isn't any better than the other traits. But at level 32, it seems that a Divinely Touched character will have +9 bonuses to Blademaster, Sharpshooter, and Magery. Elite Warriors, Natural Mages, and so on at the same level will have just a respectable +6 bonus. That's the equivalent of a MASSIVE number of skill points, especially if you're buying those skills anyway. Hmm, another reason not to take Fast on Feet

For non-skill-based bonuses, the only one that shows up on the character sheet is the Slith bonus to Resist Fire. This is a flat 10% that never goes up -- not a very good bonus at all. I haven't been able to substantiate the defensive bonus claims of Divinely Touched, Fast on Feet, Thick Skin, or Good Constitution, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

Q: Has anyone observed how these bonuses interact with the 30 point limit that reportedly applies to some (or all?) buyable skills like Tool Use?

I just did some testing to find out how trait bonuses change as you gain levels, and it turns out the level 1 bonuses are a little bit misleading. There are basically three tracks:

(1) Weak: +1 point every 10 levels, starting at level 0

(2) Medium: +1 point every 6 levels, starting at level 0 with 1 additional point

(3) Strong: +1 point every 4 levels, starting at level 0

Most bonuses follow the medium track; the only weak bonuses are to First Aid (Nimble Fingers), Gymnastics (Nephil), and Magical Efficiency (Natural Mage). There are also only three strong bonuses, and they are all from Divinely Touched!

The main significance of this is that Divinely Touched is much better than it looks. For the first 15 levels it isn't any better than the other traits. But at level 32, it seems that a Divinely Touched character will have +9 bonuses to Blademaster, Sharpshooter, and Magery. Elite Warriors, Natural Mages, and so on at the same level will have just a respectable +6 bonus. That's the equivalent of a MASSIVE number of skill points, especially if you're buying those skills anyway. Hmm, another reason not to take Fast on Feet

For non-skill-based bonuses, the only one that shows up on the character sheet is the Slith bonus to Resist Fire. This is a flat 10% that never goes up -- not a very good bonus at all. I haven't been able to substantiate the defensive bonus claims of Divinely Touched, Fast on Feet, Thick Skin, or Good Constitution, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

Q: Has anyone observed how these bonuses interact with the 30 point limit that reportedly applies to some (or all?) buyable skills like Tool Use?

*pets his algorithm* I had faith in you, my pretty!

*ahem* Anyway -- yay for testing Haste, btw, does not give +4 AP, haste gives +50% AP, calculated after all other bonuses and penalties to AP are applied. And you can indeed equip 3 +1 items -- 1 chest armor, 1 footwear, and 1 spear or shield. So you should be able to get a natural 14 AP and a hasted 21 AP. It takes three times the investment of getting to 10/15 AP, but hey...

*pets his algorithm* I had faith in you, my pretty!

*ahem* Anyway -- yay for testing Haste, btw, does not give +4 AP, haste gives +50% AP, calculated after all other bonuses and penalties to AP are applied. And you can indeed equip 3 +1 items -- 1 chest armor, 1 footwear, and 1 spear or shield. So you should be able to get a natural 14 AP and a hasted 21 AP. It takes three times the investment of getting to 10/15 AP, but hey...

Ahh, that was just one of the high-powered damage messages from MUDs I played; it always made me laugh. 'You graze the lamia.' 'You *disembowel* the lamia.' And so on.

Ahh, that was just one of the high-powered damage messages from MUDs I played; it always made me laugh. 'You graze the lamia.' 'You *disembowel* the lamia.' And so on.

You *defenestrate* the nephil shaman!

You *defenestrate* the nephil shaman!

*nod* I know what you mean, kuc. Somehow RPGs bring out the research scientist in me. I have notes on my computer covering years and years of these little projects. Quick Strike seems nice and simple compared with trying to figure out how stat increases were handed out in Dragon Warrior III... or how the heck anything worked in Dungeon Master. I loved that game, but its engine often surprised me, to say the least.

*nod* I know what you mean, kuc. Somehow RPGs bring out the research scientist in me. I have notes on my computer covering years and years of these little projects. Quick Strike seems nice and simple compared with trying to figure out how stat increases were handed out in Dragon Warrior III... or how the heck anything worked in Dungeon Master. I loved that game, but its engine often surprised me, to say the least.

But there's a lot of anecdotal evidence for bless. First, it seems pretty obvious that it makes numbers go up significantly Second, one of Jeff's big pet peeves about other RPGs, when he first made Exile, was that blessing effects were usually ineffectual. I doubt he's reversed his position on that one.

But there's a lot of anecdotal evidence for bless. First, it seems pretty obvious that it makes numbers go up significantly Second, one of Jeff's big pet peeves about other RPGs, when he first made Exile, was that blessing effects were usually ineffectual. I doubt he's reversed his position on that one.

Synergy -- great testing. Important question: In your non-hasted test WHAT is the difference between the PCs you tested at QS 3 and 4, and the QS 7 PC? The results are completely different for the QS 7 guy. While the QS 3 and 4 results conform to my algorithm, more or less, he is way off from them as well as from my own QS 7 results. Are you SURE he doesn't have Fast on Feet or weird equipment or... I dunno, anything else?

Synergy -- great testing. Important question: In your non-hasted test WHAT is the difference between the PCs you tested at QS 3 and 4, and the QS 7 PC? The results are completely different for the QS 7 guy. While the QS 3 and 4 results conform to my algorithm, more or less, he is way off from them as well as from my own QS 7 results. Are you SURE he doesn't have Fast on Feet or weird equipment or... I dunno, anything else?

Really, Thuryl? I can only say ARGH!

Hey, Vlish and Synergy, since you guys get different results from me, can you do me a favor? Duplicate the test I performed. New game, naked human, no traits, put all your skill points into dex, melee, QS which should get you QS 5. Run through a bunch of turns. 'iwanttobestronger' to level 10 and QS 10, and try again. And tell me if it looks like the results I was getting.

(For reference: 5 QS produced 24@8, 22@9, 4@10,

10 QS produced 13@8, 24@9, 13@10)

If the results are similar, there is some other factor we need to take into account. If they aren't, then Thuryl has pinpointed the cause and I will throw my hands up in despair

Really, Thuryl? I can only say ARGH!

Hey, Vlish and Synergy, since you guys get different results from me, can you do me a favor? Duplicate the test I performed. New game, naked human, no traits, put all your skill points into dex, melee, QS which should get you QS 5. Run through a bunch of turns. 'iwanttobestronger' to level 10 and QS 10, and try again. And tell me if it looks like the results I was getting.

(For reference: 5 QS produced 24@8, 22@9, 4@10,

10 QS produced 13@8, 24@9, 13@10)

If the results are similar, there is some other factor we need to take into account. If they aren't, then Thuryl has pinpointed the cause and I will throw my hands up in despair

Hmm. The 9 being rare thing is weird. Having Fast on Feet spreads out the results a lot more, but 9 should never be less common than BOTH 8 and 10. Hmm. Hmm hmm hmm. What's doing this?!?

Hmm. The 9 being rare thing is weird. Having Fast on Feet spreads out the results a lot more, but 9 should never be less common than BOTH 8 and 10. Hmm. Hmm hmm hmm. What's doing this?!?

Thanks for the reminder Synergy, I was going to account for your test but forgot.

Hmm.

Crap

I'm not sure. I don't think level is a factor. My testing was done with a naked human, with no traits, and no stats improved except for the requisite Dex and Melee, and QS itself. Testing through 10 QS was done at level 10 (though this produced the same results as at level 1, at least for QS 5). Above that I tested at level 28. Also, he didn't fight, he just ended his turn repeatedly.

I think it must be the case that another skill can also provide bonus AP. I am going to guess it is a separate process, since my algorithm works pretty well in a controlled environment -- though that could be wrong. Your results aren't that far from my predicted results shifted up by somewhat less than 1 AP:

You had approximately:

09 - 41%

10 - 53%

11 - 6%

Algorithm would predict:

08 - 42%

09 - 45%

10 - 12%

That makes me think that perhaps there is another bonus AP at work with a fairly high chance of succeeding. Could Quick Action do this?