Aleister

Just a prompt to help people visualize. Something like that must have happened tho yes? Otherwise how could he be alive in GF4, when the rebels won the GF3 conflict?

My new thread is up! I spent of time on this theory and would love to hear everyone's feedback and ideas.

Here goes. Geneforge 5 Protagonist. Who are they? We are never explicitly told. But I do think there is enough evidence to provide a flawed but plausible and convincing argument that you are the future version of the heavily altered, mentally deranged, protagonist of Geneforge 3. Disclaimer: Please, I know that this topic has been the cause of much debate on these forums in the past. So rather then directly creating up another thread saying "lets open up this wasp nest again". I instead am creating a thread here to present an idea to those who are interested and like me, irked that there was never a final verdict. Lets keep in mind that these games contain plenty of flaws, so to speak, in regards to details of the story and as such nobodies theory will be %100 accurate. These are just my ideas, I have zero authority over the facts of what is or isn't "true" in this universe of games. If my theory doesn't align with yours, keep in mind it's possible Jeff deliberately made multiple options possible as a fan service and too promote discussions, which, undoubtedly, he has succeeded in doing. With that said I have been playing and revisiting these games for a decade now and have tried to keep everything accurate as I can, so enjoy the read. During the events of Geneforge 3: The players school is attacked by Litalia who kills your peers and your teachers. You fight your way out of the school with Alwan and discover that the one teacher that survived the attack, Master Hoge, is acting suspiciously. You then leave the school and are faced by Litalia who tells you of the war raging on the mainland and across the Ashen Isles. All the player knows at this point is that she has killed their teachers, classmates, and destroyed their school. Litalia then leaves and the player, who goes on to meet with Greta, who joins them on their quest to avenge their school. The three contact Fort Kentia, and it is here that the player first comes into contact with canisters. Desperate for the power to avenge their school and knowing that their training is incomplete, they use the canister and upon doing so "feel a strong urge to find more of them". The three destroy the spawner making rouges that harm the island, and the player discovers and uses more canisters left by Litalia as they go. They then travel to Harmony Isle where the player helps the Shaper in command by destroying the network of spawners ravaging the island. Along the way the player, now facing greater threats, continues finding and using canisters, and slowly the side effects begin to show. A fact not unnoticed by Greta*. They are asked by a group of rebels to bring them a canister granting their leader great power but the player refuses, leaving the rebels to deal with the shaper in command now that his island is secure. Note* There are two reasons I've included this. Greta becomes a rebel, for years and years, she spends time in the forts of drakons and in many battles. And yet, she shows no sign, ever, of canister use. I think the reason is that she witnessed what happened to her friend and was put off them as a result. Although that is unimportant to the theory. They continue to Dhonal's Isle where they meet the traitor Master Hoge who is going mad due to excessive canister use and he attacks them. The three of them drive him back and corner him where he disappears and flees. The player, still accompanied by Greta and Alwan, remains true to their mission of going after the destroyer of their school and destroys the massive spawner left on Dhonal's Isle. When they go to leave the island however Greta tells them that she does not believe in the justice of the shapers and leaves them*. Much to the pleasure of Alwan who dislikes Greta for her lack of conviction to the shaper cause. Note* This lines up with what Greta tells the main character in geneforge 4. She says that she traveled from island to island, fighting the rebels, until she decided she'd had enough and, "doing the unthinkable", left them. The player continues with Alwan on to Gull Island where they are immediately attacked by servile rebels, but due to the player's continued use of canisters: "When you see that these creatures are challenging you, something strange happens. You are suddenly overwhelmed with a powerful feeling of hatred and disgust for them."; "You have to struggle to control the urge to lash out and instantly destroy them for challenging you". (taken from the scripts of gf3). The player and Alwan then continue on where they come face to face with Litalia. They say that they will kill her but she freezes them, just like outside the school on their first meeting, with a spell. During the conversation with Litalia the player comments on her glowing skin, she replies by telling the player "I can see it, the blessing of the canisters. You should use a mirror. Your skin has the radiance as well." The player also asks her why she decided to join with the rouge creations and rebel against the shapers. She replies saying that she believes the ways of the shapers are cruel and outdated. However, her voice is hollow and she is described as not being concerned with the cause anymore, she is evidently only concerned with gaining power. She then leaves. Okay. Note from me. It is this part, and what happens next, that ties my whole theory together. The Shaper you play as in GF 3 fights for the shaper cause*. But their enemies are many and mighty. So they partake in excessive illegal shaping (canisters) so that they can gain enough power to fight and kill Litalia. A classic case of doing the wrong thing for the right reasons. After there meeting with Litalia, as the theory goes, the player is shaken and enraged. After all they have done and all the power they have tried to amass, Litalia can still render them paralyzed with a wave of her hand. So the player takes it up a notch, and now reckless due to their deteriorating mental state, actively searches for and uses as many canisters as they can get their hands on. *Note, as stated by Greta, GF4 Now. The following is my theory, not directly stated. Read on. From here the shaper and alwan find and meet with khyryk. They sneak around his back halls, the player still searching for the power to destroy Litalia when they find a console controlling some machinery. The player then has a powerful insight. They have witnessed firsthand the power that Litalia possesses, and they know that they are not strong enough to crush her. So in the moment the player realizes, despite all they have done to fight the rebels , they need their help, and the players mind has been so polluted by their now reckless and animal hunger for and use of the canisters that their judgement is twisted. In that split second the player sabotages the machinery, causing an explosion that injures khyryk. The player, with the help of alwan who is so full of shock he is unable to think about his actions and is consumed by the heat of battle, strike down khyryk. In the moments before his death khyryk attempts to teleport himself away, but the spell fails and is unstable. the energy engulfs and vaporizes him.* Note*. I know that khyryk is alive in GF4. However this is a case of a flaw in the narrative, as no matter what the player does in GF3 to aid the rebels prior, they still demand the death of khyryk. And we know that the rebels win the ashen isles conflict. For the sake of the story we can say that when khyryk attempts to teleport away but loses control of the spell you get a "red skull-tessaract" situation* where he is teleported far away (even though it appears he dies). From here the player takes the key they get of khyryk's body to the docks in Khors depths and use the boat to travel to the stronghold of rebel power in the ashen isles: The Isle of Spears. But not before they encounter Hoge, their traitorous teacher who has been maddened by canister use and kill him. Alwan, who already had doubts about the player due to their canister use and increasing madness, says: "I'm sorry, Shaper. I can travel with you no longer. I had my doubts, but I thought that you fought for your cause. But then I saw you ... saw you murder Khyryk. Strike him down, in his own home. I was sickened._"; "_Now I see that you are lost to our kind. I need to go offer my services to fight the rebels, and maybe even fight you. It is the only way I can be true to my beliefs. Goodbye._";. Alwan then leaves the player alone on the docks of Khors Depths. Note from me: This theory sets up Greta and Alwans recounts of their experiences perfectly. Greta says in GF4 that she traveled with them, fighting the rebels then left them. Alwan says in GF4 this: From his journal in his room in rivergate keep: "Oddly, a lot of the journal has been crossed out. It appears that Alwan spent most of his journey in the company of a Shaper. However, for some reason, most of the references to this person have been removed." Then when you ask him about it: "Alwan looks suspicious. _How did you know that?_ Hopefully, he won't realize that you read his journal."; "He leans close and whispers, _I do not wish that fact to be known. Association with that Shaper resulted in ... in problems. I am not responsible, but some won't realize that. So, if you are wise, you will keep very quiet._" See? Seems like we get conflicting information in GF4 from the two of them. Unless this theory is correct. The player did go from island to island helping the shapers, but their lust for power lead them to madness. They betrayed the shapers then joined the rebels so that they can get more power. But then they see Icy End. They see the ways the creations are living in relative harmony together in freedom from the shapers. This inner conflict, combined with their increasing insanity. Leads them, like Litalia, not caring about the cause anymore and getting lost in a pursuit of power. The protagonist aids the rebels by killing Lord Rahul on Dohnals Isle and Akhari-Blaze uses the Geneforge. The player then uses a boat to travel to the mainland and goes to a shaper town and ends the game, if not their story, with the following ending abbreviated courtesy of Preferential Depletement: "You reach a Shaper force, and tell them about everything that happened in the Ashen Isles, to scare them. You are locked up due to your actions. During a successful Rebel attack, the Shaper commander comes in to deal you a mortal wound, but is instead decapitated by a rotghroth. By Akhari Blaze's pronouncement, you are given a command of those servile cultists who choose voluntarily to serve under you. You participate in the ravaging of Terrestia, and you keep fighting." Now. What happens to the Geneforge 3 character between now and Geneforge 5? The answer requires a degree of speculation but as my theory goes: As the G3 Protagonist continues fighting the war against the shapers they also continue in their new quest: Satisfy their lust for power. They continue using canisters until it's all that matters anymore. Then, at some stage they agree to become an experiment. The rebels develop an early version of the geneforge in G4 for humans. You volunteer as a early test subject. It doesn't work. The process is agonizing, it drains your powers and wipes your mind. Having no further use for you the Drakons throw you out into the wastes of Gazak-Uss.* Either that or you go mad and flee. Note* Gazak-Uss is geologically very, very close to the drypeak mountains, the location where you are found and captured before you are brought before Rawal. Here. Evidence: See it? Ghaldring knows about your memory loss. Seems small but Jeff felt the need to include it. Maybe its a clue to help us fill in the gaps between what happened to you between GF3 and 5. Maybe not. Either way its interesting. From there you are captured by the Shapers, and brought to the foundry. Evidence from the prison in stormhold (in spoiler): And from there you work as a laborer. That is until you wake up. And Geneforge 5 ensues. EVIDENCE FOR MY THEORY IN GF5: Alwan Geneforge 5: Alwan recognizes you Greta recognizes you, but presumably lies about it. Maybe because she knows that if you find out the rebels took your mind, you could be angry, and not help them: She seems to be faking a warm innocent demeanor. And when she says "soon enough" it's as if she knows more then she is letting on or at least, more about what she expects you to do. Further Evidence: There are 2 pieces of evidence that are the most significant that back up my series of events in Geneforge 3. 1st) Sage Lara of The Dera Reaches (in spoiler): See it? "where you a hero? A villain?".. Hard to see" - You where a hero, until - "You were changed. Warped. Changed yourself ... Too much. Warped you. Changed your face, your nature. Took ... Took years for your mind to connect with your body.". This supports my narrative in multiple ways. First she is confused as to your role, this makes sense if your role was both as a noble avenger and then as a power hungry madman. Second she says you where a linchpin and that your actions changed the course - changed the fate of the Ashen Isles perhaps? Even if no then this still wipes out any theory that you are Jared or Pol or something. You where a protagonist. Then, you warped and changed yourself too much, it even changed your face. this explains why Alwan and Greta don't recognize you right away, and also why they say you look vaguely like someone they once knew. Final Evidence: This (IMO) is the most solid evidence that supports my theory as being correct. It is a conversation held with Litalia when you discover her in the Trakovite Lair: 1) Litalia seems to recognize you. 2) You once bore a great grudge against her. See? "For all you know you bore a great grudge against her once". This is the story of GF3. A student who seeks revenge at any cost on the woman who killed their peers and teachers. A person who in the process of trying to gain the power to enact justice, lost their way and their mind. Someone who (according to sage lara) committed crimes - Murdering Khyryk and Lord Rahul. Someone who "changed themselves too much" and who's actions changed the course of history. And who is that person? "for all you know you bore a great grudge against her once". It's you. The final piece of evidence I have is what Litalia says to you if you kill her: "I am sorry". Why would Litalia feel the need to apologize in GF5 to you? Because in GF3 she destroyed your school, killed your friends and classmates and threw your life into turmoil.

Reading the massive drawn out back and forward debates between people whenever this topic comes up makes it clear that not everyone feels the same. When the end credits of GF5 say "one thing that bothered you is that you never discovered your true identity" or something along those lines, it was right, we are all to a degree bothered by it. Also I like your idea on it being the GF2 character. Keeping slarty (Preferential Depletement)'s point on "canon" in mind. The barzite ending of GF2 where you get continuously modified on by the barzites fits really well. 2 points: 1) GF5 "You where changed too much", "Showed signs of excessive illegal shaping", etc. 2) Rawals journal: "Found near the Drypeak mountains". Sounds familiar. Not nearly as much evidence as another theory I'll address in my new thread, but it's interesting. Here's a radical idea. What if Jeff deliberately put evidence (sometimes seemingly conflicting) for the GF 5 protagonist being the GF 2, 3, or 4 protagonist in the Geneforge 5 game as a fan service. Your favorite game GF2? Congrats heres part II of your story. Loved the story of the three survivors going from isle to isle changing the world and potentially avenging their dead classmates and teachers? Congrats, here's part II. Want to know what happens to GF 4 protagonist? U can work with that too etc. I would not be surprised if this was exactly what was going through Jeff's mind when he decided not to give us a concrete answer.

I'd invite you to view my new thread (once I post it) to see if we can continue these ideas.

Very true. And your probably correct with your second point. It's difficult to have a game where the creator gives you the options of endings then continues the next game off one specific ending, making your play through of the previous game and its respective story line irrelevant. What could be cool (if it wasn't both way to much extra work and confusing to new time players) would be if Jeff made it so that you could select what ending you finished off the previous game when starting the next one in the series. Like I said utterly unpractical from a creators standpoint, but it would settle the issues with "canon".

Agreed. I've played through the series a number of times trying to get the ending as chronologically accurate as possible. But there are some things that just don't line up and I hope we see some of them fixed ( Teresstria being the "lesser settled" continent, Kyrykk being alive in GF4 despite rebels winning ashen isles conflict etc.) Personally for GF 5 I'd like a chain where you do end up finding your true identity. Make it as easy/hard as you want like u cant use canisters, have to follow certain unexplicit clues etc. Just to please the inner Matt Patt detective in some of the die-hard fans.

Haha good! Not sure how the whole stickied thing works but if someone could do that to this thread so people can drop their updates in as they come that would be appreciated :)

I was just reading an interview Jeff did for his new game - Queen's Wish - that's coming out soon. Honestly I wasn't terribly excited for this one but after reading this interview: https://venturebeat.com/2019/06/04/queens-wish-the-conqueror-interview-jeff-vogel-wants-you-to-be-a-fantasy-ceo/2/ I definitely feel more excited for it - reading how much time and passion Jeff has put behind it. Now - for the subject matter, a portion of the interview gave a minor yet encouraging update on the Geneforge remakes: Vogel: Once a game is 15-20 years old, if it’s any good, it should be remastered. It’s new to most people. The next thing I’m going to do is start remastering the Geneforge games, which were really terrific games. GamesBeat: That was a fantastic series. That was the first series of yours I came across. Vogel: It’s really cool beans. But the first Geneforge game will have come out 20 years—when I release the remaster the previous one will have come out 20 years ago. It runs on an 800 by 600 pixel screen. I’ve learned 900,000 things about how to design a game since then. I’m really looking forward to this remaster. It’s going to be really neat, and I’m going to do my best to leave alone all the stuff that people liked, but there’s a lot of stuff in it that’s kind of wonky, that I don’t think works very well. I want to turn it into something a lot more interesting on the game end of it. I like to do new game, old game, new game, old game. I’ve been doing this for 25 years. No new news here, but it was encouraging to read that Jeff considers these games to be "really cool". Hopefully we'll see more of the passion put into Queens Wish resurface in the remakes for Geneforge. I was also thinking that we should start a thread - linked to strategy central perhaps - where people can add updates on the remakes as they come across them. Interested to read any updates anyone else has.

Thanks! IMPORTANT Edit: The flaw with increasing item value is shops limited money. I got around this by changing the amount he gives you for iron bars from 10 to 2500. Works great. Info if anyone wants to try it:

Thanks for the comprehensive replies. I'm not worried about adding npc's to party, all thats a bit too time consuming for me I'll leave it to the modding veterans such as yourself. About the graphics editor I did use one once from the gf1 graphic mod which was really good but like u said caused some issues when pasted to data of gf2. Adding money would be helpful because having to carry around gems and things all the time to sell with the old inventory system (items held in inventory count towards lbs carried) is a drag. If anyone could explain how to do that that'd be great. - Cheers Edit: Would it be possible to increase the value of a gemstone to like $10000 by editing the scripts folder? Seems like the simplest route. Can someone explain to me where I can find the data for the gemstone cause theres no folder names itemschars like in newer Gf games. Open to other ideas if anyone has something.

Re-Doing a play through of Geneforge 2 and I'm wondering if anyone can help me with mods/cheats that make the game feel less clunky such as: -> Ways to play around with scripts or cheat codes to add money (none I've tried work) -> changing the thing where it takes 5AP to be able to attack etc. -> Graphic mods? -> And overall anything else I can use to make the game extra fun that hasn't already been linked in the strategy peripheral. Greatly appreciate any help!

Love the title , Thankyou for highlighting this I can't wait for this remake

Fare points for sure, but yes I think everyone agree's there are a few slight mismatches in the series we'd hope to see patched

Sounds pretty cool, thanks for this. One thing I'd especially love to see is better consistency across games. eg. that Krykk fellow you have to kill in GF3, how come he's alive in GF4? Also I know this one is very debated but personally I wouldn't mind a "canon" answer to who the GF5 protagonist is. Same char as in gf3 imo from text with litalia in gf5: "for all you know, you may have held a great grudge against her once". Just my thoughts

So its official, the new Spiderweb Software newsletter's news on future plans now that Avernum 3: ruined world is completed makes it pretty clear that no, Jeff won't be working on Geneforge rewrite/remakes quite yet. "We are working on a whole new game world, and we’re hoping to announce it soon. It is even possible that we will do our first Kickstarter". Gotta say, I for one am pretty disappointed that we won't be seeing a geneforge remake in the near future. How do you all feel? do you think the geneforge series dosen't need a remake just yet or are you still holding your breath? How do you feel about Spiderweb Software's plans for a "new world". What would YOU like to see should the geneforge series be remade?

idonotexist42, I just mentioned in a previous post that I tested to see if Alhoon Was correct and no, in this circumstance, if you rename the graphics of one creature to the graphics of of a normal playable character then your character will have the appearance of that creature. Example Shock trooper to look like a Mage. the problem here is that when you do that your character glitches as you walk around. Ill say it again im sure there is a better way to change appearance... script editing perhaps.. idk. Well of course, thats what im trying to find out.

"Also, I will be making a second part to it that gives equipment, feel free to post what kind of equipment builds would go good with each character!" i know that no one has posted here for a long time but i wanted to see if i could find out... is there an item editor for GF5

Im referring to geneforge 4-5 in particular, and i appreciate your thought though...oops. Regardless i just tried it then. i changed the appearance of my servile to a mage and the servile at the start of GF4 (magda) didn't change appearance at all, even when i went to south forge citadel there was no change in any of the serviles there. im relatively sure renaming the folder for the grapics for a mage to that of a servile ( or anything else ) and overwriting the graphics of the servile ( or another creature) only changes the appearance of your character. at least in everything ive tried. I just think there must be a better way to change appearance other than renaming the graphics, mainly becuase renaming the graphics causes glitches And if i am not mistaken in a forum i viewed 2 or so years ago someone figured it out but i cant find the forum so i made my own. Im sure this info will be useful to others as well

Okay so if your like me and enjoy playing around with the Geneforge games scripts and graphics then you would know that by changing the names of various images changes what the image is used for. Example: graphics for an agent may be G2034-G2046 (example) and the graphics for a Shaper may be G2023-G2035 (example), so if you where to rename the images for a shaper to match that of an agent and visa versa then you would change the appearance of your agent to look like a shaper and reverse. But what im wondering is , does anyone know how to change the appearance of your character to perhaps a Mage or a Drakon? If im doing this the hard way, or you know how to do it, can someone help me.