-silver-

I'm personally enjoying how the anti-Drakon arguer keeps dismissing things as ruses or lies by the Drakons. The argument seems to go that we have to accept every other quote in the game as a fact, except the ones inconvenient to his argument. If you open up the "game quotes aren't evidence because they might be lies" can of worms, it applies both ways. Then we don't know if Barzhal created anything ever, or if he just claims to. We don't know if the serviles built Khima, or if they just claim to. Suddenly, we don't know anything anymore, it might ALL be lies. It completely dissolves the ability to quote the game for _either side_ to start dismissing _some_ quotes, but not others, as lies.

there are multiple endings. the shapers can win gf4, or they can lose. your choice.

I was on topic. I was saying that one of the choices was a wimpy choice because it requires no decision making Off topic would be, "since I've been reading and spelling drayk wrong all this time as 'dryak', now that I accept that correction, I no longer have any idea how to _pronounce_ the word. unless it's just a 'fancy spelling' of 'drake'?"

I agree. You can debate whatever regardless of the author's intent. I also happen to think that the evidence of the game supports the authors intentions rather well in this particular case, and it's not correct to say one side is more or less ethical than the other, but to discuss the individuals on those sides.

Quote: Originally written by Infernal Flamming Muffin: Anyway, why not a mixture? Thats what I went with in my poll. because that option doesn't force you to make any hard choices? "I choose mixture of: the strength of a war trall; the zap attack of a wingbolt; the breath, slowing, and shaping abilities of an ur-drakon; the terror attack of a terror vlish; the acid touch of a rothgroth; the stunning touch of a glaahk; the kill attack of a gazer; the hitponts and aura attack of the eyebeast; the cold breath of a cryodryak; the speed of a clawbug; and the servile's ability to use enchanted devices. thanks." I chose dryak

Quote: Originally written by Retlaw May: And back on the Eyebeast matter, those at the Radiant college designed the Eyebeast . Do you think they just said "Oh, maybe if you just change this gene and this gene..." No, all was the advances were random changes to see what worked. The Takers improved the design and made most of the ones your character talks to . We are given no evidence to support that the original eyebeast design was incapable of speech/sapience. And in no way we are told what the "improvements" on the design were - for all we know, the eyebeast you talk to is merely more deadly, but equally as smart as the originals. Or maybe something else has changed. We simply do not know. All we are told for sure is that Barzhal made the original.

and, I honestly think, if a young child stood before Ghaldring or his followers, based on his other speeches and actions, I think the drakon would probably just shoo the child off. before Salassar or his followers, the child would likely be dead. But, then, there are some shapers who would sympathy for a young Drakon, as well. why can't people understand Jeff's point, "Nobody in Geneforge 4 is as evil as they seem. Or as good." and that it comes down to the individual, not the species or sect, how someone will act?

It's possible that Drakons are just as ethical - they do claim that they will absorb the Unbound and make saner creations once they're no longer in danger of being genocided. We just don't know because we haven't seen the Drakons in power (yet?). But, more likely, it probably comes down to some Drakons being ethical and some evil, just like the Shapers. All down to the individuals. I seem to recall JV's own hints for the game saying, "Nobody in Geneforge 4 is as evil as they seem. Or as good."

some more random quotes: ("The Unbound are hard to control?") "_They have a ... a tendency to attack. Anything nearby. Thisss makesss them dangerousss. Once the Shapersss are gone and western Terrestia hasss been leveled, we will absorb the Unbound and then modify them to make them more sensible._"; ("How will you get them to western Terrestia if they are so unpredictable?") "_We can control them to some extent, with great effort. Enough for the journey to Quessa-Uss, and then west._"; "As [the Unbound] enter, you can sense the will of the drakons to the south. They are exerting themselves to control the minds of their creations. It is a constant struggle, even for them. You can sense their strain." The drakon Karikiss shouts, _Enough._ Instantly, you can sense the minds of the drakons again. They are struggling to regain control of the Unbound. But they aren't succeeding. The Unbound continue to strike at you."; "The drakons start to grow alarmed. For a moment, you begin to worry that you are going to be trapped in here with the things. Then Karikiss shouts, _All right. Finish them._" "You sense something else, a different energy. The Unbound stop moving. They are frozen. Then they begin to decay before your eyes. There is a foul smell. Ooze flows out of cracks in their skin. Soon, they will be dead." "You watch, horrified, as Greta crumples to the ground. The drakons note her passing without the slightest bit of emotion. One of the heroes of the rebellion has been cut down simply to test one of their creations." (emphasis mine) --- they can only barely control the Unbound. sometimes. Though they have a kill switch. They feel nothing for non-Drakons. --- Quessa-Uss: "It all looks recently constructed, hastily built by drakons, serviles, and magic. There are empty depressions in the walls, waiting for mosaics or other artwork. The touches of luxury are waiting until after the war ends." --- description of the Unbound: "It is a drakon, but unlike any you have ever seen. It glows. Powerful heat radiates from it, enough that it would probably burn you if you touched it. Whoever created it filled it with all the pure, uncontrolled power they could." "And, as with all Shaping, there was a trade-off. In return for power, they gave up sanity. They have followed the same path as Shaper Monarch, but with far greater resources and skill." (emphasis mine) "This drakon is unbound, free of all the controls normally put on creations. It is a pure weapon, designed to unleash uncontrolled havoc wherever it is placed." --- never does it say that the Unbound are supposed to shelter people. Ghaldring says, "_Now the drakons can create the Unbound, and the rebels can help us. And we drakons will shelter the lesser beings with us in the Grayghost Mountains while our creations cleanse Terrestia of the Shapers._" (emphasis mine) --- but note in the Rebel ending, the arrogance of the Drakons only increases. And there is no mention of peace to be found - only total chaotic war, with the Shaper making creations the equal of the Unbound -- now that they find their survival in question, we discover that it was only the Shaper ethics that kept them from creating beings so powerful. --- overall, the combination of these quotes is a stalemate to the argument. Neither side is more or less powerful, and neither is more or less capable of evil and good, or of brutality and art, or of arrogance and compassion. It all comes down to the individuals.

the quote you're looking for is in the entrance to gray ghost gates: "The pass ahead is blocked by massive stone gates. They are recently built, and they bear the marks of drakon architecture. Unadorned, huge, stone, and hastily made using magic and servile labor." Drakon architecture is "unadorned" and "hastily made with magic and servile labor"

Quote: Again, no. It's been demonstrated time and time again that individuals who are Shaped are still capable of empathy (Lilita, Trajkov). Try again. rare exceptions, and noted as such. Quote: So Aura of Flames canisters were present in GF1? And Kill canisters? there were canisters for every spell present in the game. there still are. it's like comparing a cd with version 1 of some software to a cd with version 2 of the program and saying, "wow, cds have gotten better". arguably, the introduction of canister side-effects in geneforge 2 means that the canister technology has gotten noticably worse. (but in actuality probably represents JV making the game closer represent his original vision).

Quote: Originally written by Nalyd Twisted: That would eliminate the possibility of getting those few spell/creations that can only be gained by canisters. And the Emperor's Seal of Approval is a death warrant. it would do no such thing. it would just mean you had to consume "enough" canisters to get to them...

they serve like heavy duty spawners until Monarch is killed. they just represent the construction Monarch is doing to make himself a fortress where his creatures go out, but no one goes in. fortunately, you get to him before the walls are finished or there would be no way in

right. all humans are equal to all drakons. of course. which is why humans don't need tons of advanced magic, armor, and weaponry to face a drakon without being slaughtered. --- but physical superiority isn't the only kind of superiority, as pointed out in this thread. it's just ridiculous to say 'all beings are equal.' they might be equal in value, and should be treated equally by law, but some beings just have some capabilities they are superior in. I will never be as fast or strong as any athelete. I am not their equal. I'm not necessarily inferior, because of my other talents, but I'm not interchangeable with them.

first, don't mistake me for my character. -- second, Shaper Monarch may be the guy from GF1 if you like, but that means he wasn't the "third shaper from Greta and Alwan's group" since Greta and Alwan were introduced in GF3 at the beginnings of their career, starting in school with the "third shaper" (being the PC). which might not be anything like contradiction to you, but does contradict some other theories that have gone around.

My character wasn't that shallow. His interest would have come from their shared worldviews and experiences.

teach a man to fish, and he eats for life: ------------------------------------------ Damien should look on the upper left of his browser's content area, where it says: "my profile | register | search | faq | forum home" Damien will want to click the middle link. in the box to the right of "search words," Damien wants to type "matala". in the drop-down to the right of "search forum," Damien wants to select ">> Geneforge 4: Rebellion" then Damien wants to hit the "Search" button below the set of entry boxes... Finally, Damien wants the links that come up.

he can't "can't be the PC because he's not strong enough", he can't be the PC because I made totally different choices than he obviously did if the PC were a continuation of my game, he'd be married to Greta and a rebel agent/infiltrator right along with her. Duh.

yah. a couple levers behind pillars or walls, a couple chests hidden by trees or walls, and I'm thinking, "stop using my point of view against me. it breaks immersion because the character in the game would see this stuff easily."

I just started relying on things I ignored in the previous geneforges. now instead of "run around corner, hit turret with ice bolt, duck back around corner", I do this with my 13 AP: 1 to run around corner, 5 to attack once, 3 to ice crystal it, 3 to ice crystal it again, 1 to attack again. It doesn't live long enough to shoot back. I have to spend more time finding the spot where I can't be cross-fired, but that just makes me feel more like I earned my right to go around with low HP (in GF1-3, I just wandered around with the best armor I could grab and a sword, and sold _everything_ else. now I actually use some items occasionally)

The restriction should apply as much to the Rebels - what Drakon is going to stand for an instant seeing another be subservient to a mere human?!

and the downside is, odds are you didn't get the wyrmtail quest before going in the wrong way, and now you've killed all the wyrms and they don't regen like the other quest animals. at least, that's what happened to me

heh. maybe my new map DOES need annotations. fear not, I'm working on a wiki-like annotated map system so we can get the benefits of annotated maps while I can still do my real job

This is what happens when you paste together all the automaps on the "ground level" and then shrink 50% (axial shrinkage, that is - it's 25% of the original area) http://www.silverchat.com/Avernum/avernum_4_map.jpg

This is what happens when you paste together all the automaps on the "ground level" and then shrink 50% (axial shrinkage, that is - it's 25% of the original area) http://www.silverchat.com/Avernum/avernum_4_map.jpg