Student of Trinity

Okay, the 'Shaper boat-creature' is the clear favorite. I'll be so disappointed if we don't get one. The plain old boat and the bridge are surprisingly popular. Presumably people expect the game to take a while to really heat up, so that the first crossing or two will be mundane. It is widely expected that there will be a magic gateway at some point, even though anything like that would be quite a novelty for Geneforge magic. Flight is considered unlikely, perhaps because it is difficult to imagine a plausible rationale for restricting a player's flying ability to just the necessary hop between islands.

Okay, the 'Shaper boat-creature' is the clear favorite. I'll be so disappointed if we don't get one. The plain old boat and the bridge are surprisingly popular. Presumably people expect the game to take a while to really heat up, so that the first crossing or two will be mundane. It is widely expected that there will be a magic gateway at some point, even though anything like that would be quite a novelty for Geneforge magic. Flight is considered unlikely, perhaps because it is difficult to imagine a plausible rationale for restricting a player's flying ability to just the necessary hop between islands.

Well, it could be that the 'killer app' for Guardians is just to be the easy class for beginners to get started with. What I think I'd like better, though, would be for Guardians to have a special affinity for Battle creations. I always tend to avoid those as a Shaper, so if Guardians used them really well it would make the game quite a bit different: manoeuvring your troops into close contact would be a major feature unique to the Guardian game.

Agents definitely work well as singletons, in both GFs. I've never really thought about trying them other ways, because other strategies would make them more like Shapers or Guardians, and I like them to be different.

What might be interesting, though, is to try a Shaper that is a bit Agent-like: accept a somewhat weaker creation army, but have high enough Battle Magic to give them good fire support.

Hmmm. I still have the feeling that Guardians are unstable against morphing into burlier Shapers or Agents. That is, either they outstrip creations and become lone warriors that rely on speed like Agents, or else they look after a squad of creations like a Shaper, without doing much fighting themselves.

What I feel is missing is a 'killer app' for Guardians -- an effective basic tactic that they can do, that the other two classes cannot do.

Actually I read somewhere that Howard took a bodybuilding course that turned him into a big guy in real life, so maybe he wasn't such a wimp.

I'm also hoping The Briar King series goes better.

Hagia Sophia really is pretty impressive from inside. It's such a vast space. I think it would become a famous building if it were built today; and to think it was built in, what, 550 or something? Once I'd been there I suddenly understood why all those medieval Europeans had been so in awe of their classical forebears. Western Europe couldn't dream of doing anything close to it for about a thousand years.

Actually I read somewhere that Howard took a bodybuilding course that turned him into a big guy in real life, so maybe he wasn't such a wimp.

I'm also hoping The Briar King series goes better.

Hagia Sophia really is pretty impressive from inside. It's such a vast space. I think it would become a famous building if it were built today; and to think it was built in, what, 550 or something? Once I'd been there I suddenly understood why all those medieval Europeans had been so in awe of their classical forebears. Western Europe couldn't dream of doing anything close to it for about a thousand years.

Alas, my displayed name doesn't bear any much closer relation to my real identity than most people's. I would like to visit Trinity College, Dublin, some day, for the sake of Stephen Maturin if nothing else.

Nice to hear that the 'squad leader' Guardian can indeed be followed through to the endgame. I'll have to try harder next time.

But I really don't know about Agents keeping creations. It costs so many skill points, and so much essence, that are both better used elsewhere. And anyway much of the fun of playing an Agent is that you don't have to worry about looking after pets.

Yeah, what is it with The Bound One's extensive grill area? He really likes kabobs? Another symptom of his madness? A necessary alternative entrance for PCs with bad spinecore allergies?

I kept thinking that there must be a sneaky way to lure TBO into that area and fry him on his own griddles, since in general there is supposed to be a stealth alternative to most major problems in the game. But I never found a way to do it.

SF and fantasy are clearly changing: there's money in 'em now. Top flight authors come out in hardcover, and movie deals sometimes happen. I don't know that it's really getting worse, though. I personally read less nowadays because I have less time, but I think good things are still coming along. The old days look better because we only remember the good old things.

What does bother me is that publication deals seem to make authors rush series into print too quickly. I've seen several amazingly promising first books lead into banal trilogies, when I'm sure that the author could have kept up their initial standards if they had just taken the time. (Gregory Keyes's Newton's Cannon was tremendous, and A Calculus of Angels was at least a cool title; but the series had gone so far downhill into random weirdness by the third book that I never read book 4.)

[Abruptly forces himself back on topic, more or less:] I hope Jeff bears this in mind with the GF series, which he anticipates running for a few more installments after 3. Since he does have Avernum under his belt, let's hope he knows how to pace himself. I at least felt that GF2 was a worthy sequel.

SF and fantasy are clearly changing: there's money in 'em now. Top flight authors come out in hardcover, and movie deals sometimes happen. I don't know that it's really getting worse, though. I personally read less nowadays because I have less time, but I think good things are still coming along. The old days look better because we only remember the good old things.

What does bother me is that publication deals seem to make authors rush series into print too quickly. I've seen several amazingly promising first books lead into banal trilogies, when I'm sure that the author could have kept up their initial standards if they had just taken the time. (Gregory Keyes's Newton's Cannon was tremendous, and A Calculus of Angels was at least a cool title; but the series had gone so far downhill into random weirdness by the third book that I never read book 4.)

[Abruptly forces himself back on topic, more or less:] I hope Jeff bears this in mind with the GF series, which he anticipates running for a few more installments after 3. Since he does have Avernum under his belt, let's hope he knows how to pace himself. I at least felt that GF2 was a worthy sequel.

Maybe that farmer killed them? Do their paths ever wander close enough?

I read Slan and Space Beagle many years ago, and liked them; I'm not sure they're so much my cup of tea these days. Vance is amazing. What about his short stories, though? "The Moon Moth", "Green Magic", "The Men Return" ...

Oh, yeah: the Blimp-Vlish would definitely be cool. The trouble with flying, though, is that it would be hard to explain why you can't fly everywhere.

I read Slan and Space Beagle many years ago, and liked them; I'm not sure they're so much my cup of tea these days. Vance is amazing. What about his short stories, though? "The Moon Moth", "Green Magic", "The Men Return" ...

Oh, yeah: the Blimp-Vlish would definitely be cool. The trouble with flying, though, is that it would be hard to explain why you can't fly everywhere.

What 99 max? My Agent has 385 Essence. You may want to pump up Intelligence a bit.

At this point I have 8 votes for 'Other', but the only really different suggestions mentioned so far have been 'rusty tramcars' and 'ninjas'. Rusty tramcars would be cool. They've been done, but they were cool then, and they'd be cool again. I really don't expect ninjas. (Of course, that's just the way the ninjas always like it.)

Could the other six original minds indicate what they can imagine? Or do we just have six votes for the proposition that Jeff will have thought of something I didn't anticipate?

(I'm hoping for that myself.)

At this point I have 8 votes for 'Other', but the only really different suggestions mentioned so far have been 'rusty tramcars' and 'ninjas'. Rusty tramcars would be cool. They've been done, but they were cool then, and they'd be cool again. I really don't expect ninjas. (Of course, that's just the way the ninjas always like it.)

Could the other six original minds indicate what they can imagine? Or do we just have six votes for the proposition that Jeff will have thought of something I didn't anticipate?

(I'm hoping for that myself.)

It's not that my creations fall behind me literally! Its that my Guardian's power so far outstrips theirs, that the amount of help they give me doesn't seem to justify the effort involved in keeping them alive. Even just using them as meatshields involves, at the very least, the tedious and distasteful exercise of micromanaging mass suicide in combat mode. For less effort, or at least for effort I find more agreeable, I can break up enemy groups with the Agent-like tactics you mention, of luring some around corners.

In the earlier stages of the game, I do find a few stalwart Artilas or Vlishes essential. But towards the end I seem to get more bang for my buck out of speed spells.

Agents just need speed, speed, speed. Get all the quicksilver gear; pump up Quick Action like crazy; keep speed spells on at all times; and explore all the dangerous areas in combat mode the whole time. (Constant combat mode is horribly tedious unless you're solo, so never make creations or enlist help.) You also have to be cunning: once you have enough speed to get two first attacks, don't settle for two -- take infinity.

And although by the end of the game I do find my Agents can kill enemies with swords, I always use magic as first option, not as backup. Just keep on pumping up Battle Magic and Spellcraft; if your spells aren't reliably putting goo on the floor with each shot, you need more points. And do use Searer: sometimes its slightly greater damage than Firebolt makes a big difference.

I'm sure there are other effective ways to play Agents, but the advantage of this way is that you really can't do it with Shapers or Guardians, so it makes the game experience different.

Jeff has said that GF3 will cover a series of islands. What ways do people anticipate being used to travel between them?

Jeff has said that GF3 will cover a series of islands. What ways do people anticipate being used to travel between them?

I replied to this under the "Improvements for GF3" thread (which I know I shouldn't have done, sorry).

Point I made there was: get high speed. You want to have 16 AP to take IGU (assuming Speed spell, which you should keep always on). But that advice assumed you wouldn't mind it if all your companions died.

Otherwise, taker_guardian, you would probably have gotten more useful advice if you had initially mentioned the unusual constraints you want to maintain. I frankly don't know how to keep a party of six NPCs alive in Inner Gazak-Uss. It sounds like an 'Iron Man' challenge to me. The NPCs you meet in the game are all pretty lame, by the high standards of IGU. Even your Guardian's level of 39 is pretty low to tackle this place. And probably it is as low as it is because you have been sharing xp all along with your large party.

Of course you can play the game that way if you want. I'm just not sure that there will be a way for you to beat Inner Gazak-Uss under these conditions.

I think your best bet might be this. Get all the speed upgrades I mentioned in the other thread, and use the solo-Guardian tactics I mentioned there. But to save the rest of your party, first lock them behind the door in the room with the Freakish Spawner. They won't help you against the Eyebeasts anyway, and at least there they'll be safe while you get the job done.

Trouble with a Guardian in Inner Gazak-Uss?

You, sir, have a need for speed.

Get the Emerald Chestguard. Pick up some Quicksilver Boots if you can. Use Speed pods or spells continuously. Stay in combat mode. Hit first and hit often.

IGU is full of corners. With 16 AP, you can hit a couple of times, then run around a corner, exit combat mode, then re-enter it and pop back out. This actually makes IGU so easy, it's like cheating.

Plus, with 16 AP, you can soak up a couple of Eyebeast attacks and still have plenty of AP left with which to kill them.

In anticipation of GF3, my general interest in GFology (geneforgery?) is slowly reviving.

The problem with just pumping up melee, and only keeping a few early critters, is that it makes playing a Guardian feel a bit too much like playing an Agent. Sure, you're hitting instead of zapping, but it's still mostly just you taking on the monsters solo.

I always want to try to make the Guardian somewhere between the Agent and Shaper in style, by keeping a small team of good creations, with the Guardian as squad leader. Usually a couple of Artilas or Vlish seem like a good idea, to give my super-grunt some fire support. Somehow I've never really gotten this to work out, though. At some point the power of my Guardian surges so far ahead of the only creations he can make, that just keeping them alive becomes pointless and tedious. So long before the endgame, I find I've 'gone Matrix' (as in Colonel Matrix of _Commando_), and I'm taking out the enemy single-handed.

I think this is partly because abilities like Unlock and Speed are so attractive that I end up putting a fair number of points into magic, and have too little left to keep up both combat and creations. It might well be that if I tried harder I could get the squad-leader-Guardian to work better (just as I could probably find a way to make missile weapons work well for me, if I specialized in them consistently enough). Maybe there is some problem in balance with the Guardian; or maybe it's just that I really don't enjoy the micromanagement of creations, so I tend to slip into Agent-like solo mode as soon as I can.

Ha! Thanks very much for the news. Somehow I suspected this, since nothing in GF1 even hinted that it might be an idea to Just Say No. But I didn't really have the time to check this out myself.

How hard was it without canisters? What class did you play? What ending(s) did you take? Were there areas you had to skip? Tactics you had to use?