Slariton

Never mind all the past pessimism, this is TOTALLY doable for a singleton. I did some scripting to put a new character (Nephil DT Natural Mage) at level 36 and provide a selection of dodge-enhancing equipment. I pushed Mage Spells to 11 and Tool Use to 8, giving myself a very conservative discount to account for trainers, wisdom crystals, and so on. Then I pumped dodge. After putting on the right equipment and being careful with my skills, I managed to reach: 20 Gymnastics 14 Dexterity 14 Defense 10 Luck Total dodging bonus: +191% This is enough to usually evade level 30 enemies attacking physically, and close to 50/50 against level 40 enemies. I'm pretty sure there are actually more skill points available. I really have no idea how much knowledge brew can be had and if a certain level of Nature Lore can provide a skill point bonanza. You can inflate the available skill points even more by replacing Divinely Touched with Nimble Fingers; or, you can replace it with Fast on Feet for a flat 10% bonus to dodge. DT however gives you a pretty nice bow attack (14 dex, 10 bows, 12 sharpshooter) and fair mage ability. I also wonder if it's possible to skip Tool Use entirely? Unlock Doors works on everything except traps, so it just depends on any traps being in really critical places. So far, I haven't seen any. One problem: As I suspected, most spells get a full 50% bonus to-hit. (Assuming I am reading the script right, and that does not mean Bolt of Fire never misses.) I also haven't figured out if the bonuses accrue at the same rates apply against spells and missiles. I think they do, but if they don't, that could be a big problem. Thoughts anyone?

Boooooooo. I am actually starting to think it's doable after all. Also, I am concluding that in the long run, DT + Elite Warrior and Deadeye are not the best combinations. At level 32, DT alone gives +9. The other skill gives you an extra +6 or +5, but this becomes effectively +3 given the 10-ceiling. On the other hand, Natural Mage gives the full bonus. For a singleton I think it's a lot better, as it allows you to focus all your SP on tanking. Given enough trainers and a few wisdom crystals, and the right armor selection, I think a singleton *may* be able to boost dodging enough to keep up with enemies. Very few attacks can't be dodged, and those can I suspect be handled on a case by case basis.

Boooooooo. I am actually starting to think it's doable after all. Also, I am concluding that in the long run, DT + Elite Warrior and Deadeye are not the best combinations. At level 32, DT alone gives +9. The other skill gives you an extra +6 or +5, but this becomes effectively +3 given the 10-ceiling. On the other hand, Natural Mage gives the full bonus. For a singleton I think it's a lot better, as it allows you to focus all your SP on tanking. Given enough trainers and a few wisdom crystals, and the right armor selection, I think a singleton *may* be able to boost dodging enough to keep up with enemies. Very few attacks can't be dodged, and those can I suspect be handled on a case by case basis.

To be fair, Jeff did make singleton play more possible after Exile, and all the endless whining about how a singleton with 20 Mage Lore couldn't get the best spells... now at least if it's too hard, it's too hard for genuine reasons and not artificial limitations.

To be fair, Jeff did make singleton play more possible after Exile, and all the endless whining about how a singleton with 20 Mage Lore couldn't get the best spells... now at least if it's too hard, it's too hard for genuine reasons and not artificial limitations.

There are 25 F/C/E % for you to account for -- you forgot to discount the points I had foolishly thought Divinely Touched provided. That suggests to me that you get that 25 from your armor, and your other 7 points of armor come from Luck. Armor from Luck does not add to FCE, as each point of Luck instead adds one FCE %. You can test this yourself... just write down your resists, put on or take off a piece of armor, and see what happens. I don't remember any base armor score and I'm pretty sure there isn't one. For the three unaccountable points of armor, I'd recheck your math, make sure you aren't miscounting the Clover Boots or anything like that. Also, re 8-10 strength for a fighter and whatnot, something else that's worth taking into account is bonuses you expect to get from items, in addition to race and traits; these bonuses provide reduced benefits above 10 for many scores just like bought skills do. With the girdles, etc., some of this may be worth thinking ahead on. You know, when I played G1-3, even on Torment, I generally refused to use any of the trainers. It was too annoying to hold off on vital skills just to save a few skill points. Frankly I wonder if that isn't the healthiest attitude

There are 25 F/C/E % for you to account for -- you forgot to discount the points I had foolishly thought Divinely Touched provided. That suggests to me that you get that 25 from your armor, and your other 7 points of armor come from Luck. Armor from Luck does not add to FCE, as each point of Luck instead adds one FCE %. You can test this yourself... just write down your resists, put on or take off a piece of armor, and see what happens. I don't remember any base armor score and I'm pretty sure there isn't one. For the three unaccountable points of armor, I'd recheck your math, make sure you aren't miscounting the Clover Boots or anything like that. Also, re 8-10 strength for a fighter and whatnot, something else that's worth taking into account is bonuses you expect to get from items, in addition to race and traits; these bonuses provide reduced benefits above 10 for many scores just like bought skills do. With the girdles, etc., some of this may be worth thinking ahead on. You know, when I played G1-3, even on Torment, I generally refused to use any of the trainers. It was too annoying to hold off on vital skills just to save a few skill points. Frankly I wonder if that isn't the healthiest attitude

Update: Base chance for an enemy to hit you is 50% + 5% per level of the enemy. By the end of the game, most enemies are about level 30, it looks like; the most powerful are levels 35-40. That means they have base chances to hit of 200% - 250%. (Unless this bonus also follows the half after 10 rule, or has its own ceiling, but that seems unlikely.) 10 points each in Dex, Gymnastics, Defense, and Luck will improve your dodging ability by 150%. So the most powerful enemies will still hit you 99% of the time, and weaker ones will hit you half the time... and that's after an investment of 240 skill points (not counting the 4 points of Strength to get to Gymnastics, although those coincidentally cost the same as the 4 points of Gymnastics a level 30 Nephil wouldn't have to buy), which is about all one character is likely to have at the end of the game. Even a dedicated tank will be hard pressed to spend that much skill on these skills. So maybe Gymnastics isn't quite as killer as we thought. Vlish, how's your tank doing?

Update: Base chance for an enemy to hit you is 50% + 5% per level of the enemy. By the end of the game, most enemies are about level 30, it looks like; the most powerful are levels 35-40. That means they have base chances to hit of 200% - 250%. (Unless this bonus also follows the half after 10 rule, or has its own ceiling, but that seems unlikely.) 10 points each in Dex, Gymnastics, Defense, and Luck will improve your dodging ability by 150%. So the most powerful enemies will still hit you 99% of the time, and weaker ones will hit you half the time... and that's after an investment of 240 skill points (not counting the 4 points of Strength to get to Gymnastics, although those coincidentally cost the same as the 4 points of Gymnastics a level 30 Nephil wouldn't have to buy), which is about all one character is likely to have at the end of the game. Even a dedicated tank will be hard pressed to spend that much skill on these skills. So maybe Gymnastics isn't quite as killer as we thought. Vlish, how's your tank doing?

Okay, that DT thing was the result of REALLY poor observational skills on my part. Here's what's really going on: Half your Armor rating is added to Fire Cold and Elec resists. That makes good armor a lot better, since it also reduces damage from magic! It also makes me suspect that Hardiness, Resistance, and Luck all secretly increase your armor rating, which the hardiness description suggests anyway. Also, the 10 and 20 caps on skill gains apply to some Luck bonuses (Stun, Mental, Poison and Acid) but not to Fire/Elec/Cold. Weird!

Okay, that DT thing was the result of REALLY poor observational skills on my part. Here's what's really going on: Half your Armor rating is added to Fire Cold and Elec resists. That makes good armor a lot better, since it also reduces damage from magic! It also makes me suspect that Hardiness, Resistance, and Luck all secretly increase your armor rating, which the hardiness description suggests anyway. Also, the 10 and 20 caps on skill gains apply to some Luck bonuses (Stun, Mental, Poison and Acid) but not to Fire/Elec/Cold. Weird!

You know, we've seen lots of Slith nurseries... and Aranea nurseries... but never any Nephil nurseries. Maybe they spring forth fully formed like Athena. They are all divinely touched, you know

Another suspicion, though I haven't checked this one out: To-hit gets an additional bonus equal to 5% per level of your equipped weapon. This is a hidden stat, but it can be guessed based on the "base damage" of the weapon, which is the base damage for that weapon type times the weapon's level. Monsters get a bonus to hit which I am guessing is dependent on monster level. Perhaps also 5%? They may get a level-based dodge bonus, but it must be a lot smaller if they do. Base chance for a monster to hit is 50%, I think? Base chance for a PC to hit is 35%? (Need to check: do these numbers change on different difficulty settings.)

Another suspicion, though I haven't checked this one out: To-hit gets an additional bonus equal to 5% per level of your equipped weapon. This is a hidden stat, but it can be guessed based on the "base damage" of the weapon, which is the base damage for that weapon type times the weapon's level. Monsters get a bonus to hit which I am guessing is dependent on monster level. Perhaps also 5%? They may get a level-based dodge bonus, but it must be a lot smaller if they do. Base chance for a monster to hit is 50%, I think? Base chance for a PC to hit is 35%? (Need to check: do these numbers change on different difficulty settings.)

I did some testing on hostile effect resistances as well as to-hit and to-dodge. We've been making some bad assumptions! Here's a summary of the effects of skills on these important numbers: ARMOR +1 per Luck TO-HIT +5% per Str / Dex +5% per Melee or Pole / Bows or Throws +5% per Blademaster / Sharpshooter +2% per Luck TO-DODGE +5% per Dex +5% per Gymnastics +3% per Defense +2% per Luck +10% (fixed) if Fast on Feet FIRE, COLD, and ELECTRICITY +2% per Hardiness +4% per Resistance +1% per Luck +1% per 2 points of Armor rating from equipment (NOT from Luck) +10% to fire only (fixed) if Slith STUN +5% per Strength +3% per Luck MENTAL +3% per Intelligence +1% per Luck POISON and ACID +5% per Endurance +3% per Luck One other important consideration: for all of these numbers, after getting to 10 in a given skill, you need to buy 2 points of the skill to get another step of the bonus. I assume that once you get to 20, you have to buy 3 points. This is the system Geneforge 1 used for all skills (it had fixed skill point prices). However, it seems many skills in A4 have their own formulas and ignore the 10 skill ceiling - Int, Magery, Tool Use, and Quick Strike, for example. Also, Parry is not 7.5% per point as somebody reported. It's a base of 5% for all characters + 5% per point of Parry (I believe this does follow the 10 and 20 ceilings). Those are the melee numbers, anyway, I haven't tried to figure out the numbers vs archery or whatnot. Also, Elite Warrior seems to give the additional +1 bonus every 8 levels, not every 6 levels as I originally stated. Not sure how I goofed that, if anyone wants to see if that matches their savefiles, not a bad idea. Implication of all this: Luck is really, really good. Question: Does anyone know if the % sign in all of the resistance stats is at all relevant, or if it's basically decorative?

I did some testing on hostile effect resistances as well as to-hit and to-dodge. We've been making some bad assumptions! Here's a summary of the effects of skills on these important numbers: ARMOR +1 per Luck TO-HIT +5% per Str / Dex +5% per Melee or Pole / Bows or Throws +5% per Blademaster / Sharpshooter +2% per Luck TO-DODGE +5% per Dex +5% per Gymnastics +3% per Defense +2% per Luck +10% (fixed) if Fast on Feet FIRE, COLD, and ELECTRICITY +2% per Hardiness +4% per Resistance +1% per Luck +1% per 2 points of Armor rating from equipment (NOT from Luck) +10% to fire only (fixed) if Slith STUN +5% per Strength +3% per Luck MENTAL +3% per Intelligence +1% per Luck POISON and ACID +5% per Endurance +3% per Luck One other important consideration: for all of these numbers, after getting to 10 in a given skill, you need to buy 2 points of the skill to get another step of the bonus. I assume that once you get to 20, you have to buy 3 points. This is the system Geneforge 1 used for all skills (it had fixed skill point prices). However, it seems many skills in A4 have their own formulas and ignore the 10 skill ceiling - Int, Magery, Tool Use, and Quick Strike, for example. Also, Parry is not 7.5% per point as somebody reported. It's a base of 5% for all characters + 5% per point of Parry (I believe this does follow the 10 and 20 ceilings). Those are the melee numbers, anyway, I haven't tried to figure out the numbers vs archery or whatnot. Also, Elite Warrior seems to give the additional +1 bonus every 8 levels, not every 6 levels as I originally stated. Not sure how I goofed that, if anyone wants to see if that matches their savefiles, not a bad idea. Implication of all this: Luck is really, really good. Question: Does anyone know if the % sign in all of the resistance stats is at all relevant, or if it's basically decorative?

Kitties are in the Eastern Gallery and have cleared out the eastern half. It's been remarkably easy going. I haven't even found my tank to be necessary at all, although I have been blessing constantly and ambushing enemy archers wherever possible. I've also been pretty generous with healing. Slartucker was given me years ago after a comparison to Slartibartfast; my real name is Tucker.

Kitties are in the Eastern Gallery and have cleared out the eastern half. It's been remarkably easy going. I haven't even found my tank to be necessary at all, although I have been blessing constantly and ambushing enemy archers wherever possible. I've also been pretty generous with healing. Slartucker was given me years ago after a comparison to Slartibartfast; my real name is Tucker.

Are even the medium-level priest spells really necessary? You can use potions for armor where you need to, and nothing else looks too important, really. That would save a lot of dear, dear skill points. A singleton MUST be played as a tank, really, and every point of Dex, Gymnastics, Defense, Parry, Endurance, Luck, Resistance, etc. really counts.

Are even the medium-level priest spells really necessary? You can use potions for armor where you need to, and nothing else looks too important, really. That would save a lot of dear, dear skill points. A singleton MUST be played as a tank, really, and every point of Dex, Gymnastics, Defense, Parry, Endurance, Luck, Resistance, etc. really counts.

(goes up levels) (ahead of everyone else) not (goes up) ((levels ahead) of everyone else) He's only 500 or 600 XP up, right now; each level he gets about a 50 XP lead on the others, which makes sense given that he gets 50% of normal experience and the others get 45% of it.

(goes up levels) (ahead of everyone else) not (goes up) ((levels ahead) of everyone else) He's only 500 or 600 XP up, right now; each level he gets about a 50 XP lead on the others, which makes sense given that he gets 50% of normal experience and the others get 45% of it.

Heh. I may try a singleton in a bit, but I'm not going to just yet. Synergy -- what difficulty level are you using? Clearly, Arcane Lore is a lost cause. It would cost 110 points to raise either one to 20. Spells will have to be bought. Or are the highest level spells not sold by anyone? That would be annoying. Nature Lore I'm not sure about -- if there is a lot of Graymold and Mandrake hidden in dirt piles, it might be worth investing in in order to get more Knowledge Brew. Prolly not, but there are so many dirt piles I've yet to dig in! *rolls eyes* I'm a little bit worried, Synergy, about what will happen at higher levels. Given the necessary investment into magic and tools, I don't think you'll have the skill points to develop both a good defense and a good attack. I suppose you could use magic and bows to attack, and rely a lot on energy potions; but I'm not sure that's feasable, and even if it is it sounds pretty annoying.

Heh. I may try a singleton in a bit, but I'm not going to just yet. Synergy -- what difficulty level are you using? Clearly, Arcane Lore is a lost cause. It would cost 110 points to raise either one to 20. Spells will have to be bought. Or are the highest level spells not sold by anyone? That would be annoying. Nature Lore I'm not sure about -- if there is a lot of Graymold and Mandrake hidden in dirt piles, it might be worth investing in in order to get more Knowledge Brew. Prolly not, but there are so many dirt piles I've yet to dig in! *rolls eyes* I'm a little bit worried, Synergy, about what will happen at higher levels. Given the necessary investment into magic and tools, I don't think you'll have the skill points to develop both a good defense and a good attack. I suppose you could use magic and bows to attack, and rely a lot on energy potions; but I'm not sure that's feasable, and even if it is it sounds pretty annoying.

Symbiosis would have been a potentially REALLY useful spell, if it had actually worked well. The cool thing about the spells in Exile (2 and 3, really) is that they were willing to break the rules in balanced ways. Experienced game designers often avoid doing that because they are aware of how easy it is to mess up and ruin game balance when you break rules. But in Exile they were done very well. The field-creating spells in particular expanded strategy by a lot; and Mindduel, Envenom, Shockwave, Stealth... so many ways to attack. I think it's telling that the most powerful magic was often to Simulacrum a Null Bug.