Slariton

I think it's fair to say that there is a core Spidweb engine, and however the technical details may have changed over time, if you look at the big picture, every game is pretty similar. Each game has its own variations, and different variations will appeal to different people. If you're going to insult each other, at least have a good reason for it! Bashing each other over something so subjective is just silly.

Enduring Priest Update: As with Synergy, the opening sections of the game have been pretty easy. I'm through Fort Draco now. I was a little stingier with my skill points, so high dex has given me a dodge rate of 80-99% against pretty much everything. No First Aid, but that's been fine; I've just been picking up all the food on the cave floor (there's a LOT) and using it. Magic items are A LOT better when you're a singleton. The 3 AP cost basically means you get a free action out of them, and when you only have one action per turn, that's a much greater difference. I've been saving every magic item, and healing potions, Ice Bolt scrolls and the like have actually been fairly helpful in the stickiest situations -- the Fire Lizards under Khrosoth come to mind. They don't sell for much, anyway, and gold is *clearly* not going to be an impediment in this game. Otherwise, Acid Spray is definitely the most important spell for me right now. The most annoying thing has been not having any Tool Use and having to wait until after clearing the Haunted Mines to get Unlock Doors! I've been making a list of all the locked doors and boxes, and I'm not sure how many I'm going to go back for. There are some that I was really mad about, though, especially the storeroom in Grindstone with the huge piles of loot, including two Piercing Crystals. None of the traps have stopped me yet, though some have come close; they will probably stop coming close once I get better armor and pump luck some, so FEC resists are higher.

Enduring Priest Update: As with Synergy, the opening sections of the game have been pretty easy. I'm through Fort Draco now. I was a little stingier with my skill points, so high dex has given me a dodge rate of 80-99% against pretty much everything. No First Aid, but that's been fine; I've just been picking up all the food on the cave floor (there's a LOT) and using it. Magic items are A LOT better when you're a singleton. The 3 AP cost basically means you get a free action out of them, and when you only have one action per turn, that's a much greater difference. I've been saving every magic item, and healing potions, Ice Bolt scrolls and the like have actually been fairly helpful in the stickiest situations -- the Fire Lizards under Khrosoth come to mind. They don't sell for much, anyway, and gold is *clearly* not going to be an impediment in this game. Otherwise, Acid Spray is definitely the most important spell for me right now. The most annoying thing has been not having any Tool Use and having to wait until after clearing the Haunted Mines to get Unlock Doors! I've been making a list of all the locked doors and boxes, and I'm not sure how many I'm going to go back for. There are some that I was really mad about, though, especially the storeroom in Grindstone with the huge piles of loot, including two Piercing Crystals. None of the traps have stopped me yet, though some have come close; they will probably stop coming close once I get better armor and pump luck some, so FEC resists are higher.

Vahnatai creationism?!?!?

Heh. Cool. Though frankly, not using bows and spells (or even not using them much) may be rather more of an obstacle than not using broadswords.

Heh. Cool. Though frankly, not using bows and spells (or even not using them much) may be rather more of an obstacle than not using broadswords.

Well holy frijoles, Enduring Shield and Enduring Armor are REALLY GOOD. As it turns out, the descriptions to many of the protective spells lie, in particular Protection which doesn't increase dodge rate at all. Enduring Shield and Enduring Armor both increase it by 1-2% per point of priest skill (/spellcraft/magery), plus a base bonus of about 10% for Shield or about 18% for Armor. While it's possible there's a maximum cap on shield strength, I haven't been able to find one. Also I've only tested with one level of the spell learnt. What does this mean? For our singleton tank, that opens up THREE new stats which increase dodge rate by 1.5% -- with no 10-cap! Once your main dodge stats hit 10, that makes these skills a better defensive investment than Defense or Luck, and likely better than Dex and Gymnastics since they will be cheaper. But even better, they also increase the strength of priestly offenses like Repel Spirit and Divine Retribution. With this discovery, a singleton almost begins to seem easy to me: • Nephil and Divinely Touched, plus your Dex investment, provide enough points in bow skills to make you a passable archer for free • A moderate investment to Str, Dex, Defense, Luck, and Gymnastics gives you a great natural dodge • After that, you can pump Priest Spells, Spellcraft, and Magery like crazy, with help from DT and Pure Spirit, to further boost your dodge via enduring spells, while also providing a very good priestly attack As for other skills: • I prefer Pure Spirit to Natural Mage. Even if you DO go for Dispel Barrier, you'll get more skill point value out of Pure Spirit, since you are also pumping priest skill manually. If you forego any armor to be able to cast, say, Haste, the enduring bonus will likely make up for it. • Mage Spells: 19 points gets you Haste, 26 gets Slow, 42 gets Unlock and Augmentation. The latter is really unnecessary since potions can replace it. I'm almost certain that Unlock will give you access to equipment making it well worth the 16 points beyond Haste and Slow, which seem like a pretty reasonable investment. You can pay 91 points total to get to Dispel Barrier, but I'm skeptical that that's worthwhile. • Arcane Lore: Investing 10 skill points will get you all the relevant spells if you're patient. Probably worthwhile, as your spell stats will eventually reach this range and the lore provides more bonuses to your key spells than a single magery point. • Nature Lore: I suspect that a certain investment might pay itself back eventually, but I guess it's not worth it given the tardiness of Strine. With this efficient character design, I believe I'm now ready to join Synergy in the singleton crusade. Happy new year!

Well holy frijoles, Enduring Shield and Enduring Armor are REALLY GOOD. As it turns out, the descriptions to many of the protective spells lie, in particular Protection which doesn't increase dodge rate at all. Enduring Shield and Enduring Armor both increase it by 1-2% per point of priest skill (/spellcraft/magery), plus a base bonus of about 10% for Shield or about 18% for Armor. While it's possible there's a maximum cap on shield strength, I haven't been able to find one. Also I've only tested with one level of the spell learnt. What does this mean? For our singleton tank, that opens up THREE new stats which increase dodge rate by 1.5% -- with no 10-cap! Once your main dodge stats hit 10, that makes these skills a better defensive investment than Defense or Luck, and likely better than Dex and Gymnastics since they will be cheaper. But even better, they also increase the strength of priestly offenses like Repel Spirit and Divine Retribution. With this discovery, a singleton almost begins to seem easy to me: • Nephil and Divinely Touched, plus your Dex investment, provide enough points in bow skills to make you a passable archer for free • A moderate investment to Str, Dex, Defense, Luck, and Gymnastics gives you a great natural dodge • After that, you can pump Priest Spells, Spellcraft, and Magery like crazy, with help from DT and Pure Spirit, to further boost your dodge via enduring spells, while also providing a very good priestly attack As for other skills: • I prefer Pure Spirit to Natural Mage. Even if you DO go for Dispel Barrier, you'll get more skill point value out of Pure Spirit, since you are also pumping priest skill manually. If you forego any armor to be able to cast, say, Haste, the enduring bonus will likely make up for it. • Mage Spells: 19 points gets you Haste, 26 gets Slow, 42 gets Unlock and Augmentation. The latter is really unnecessary since potions can replace it. I'm almost certain that Unlock will give you access to equipment making it well worth the 16 points beyond Haste and Slow, which seem like a pretty reasonable investment. You can pay 91 points total to get to Dispel Barrier, but I'm skeptical that that's worthwhile. • Arcane Lore: Investing 10 skill points will get you all the relevant spells if you're patient. Probably worthwhile, as your spell stats will eventually reach this range and the lore provides more bonuses to your key spells than a single magery point. • Nature Lore: I suspect that a certain investment might pay itself back eventually, but I guess it's not worth it given the tardiness of Strine. With this efficient character design, I believe I'm now ready to join Synergy in the singleton crusade. Happy new year!

I'm gonna look into this. Incidentally, I also looked up the arcane lore details. Almost all spells can be had with 10 lore, and very few take more than 12 (just Host and Blow at 15, I believe). Retribution only takes 12, and if you want to wait to finish Lark's quest, that one seems to take no lore at all. I say "only" because you can pump lore by 6 from using the right items. These may not show up until late, I'm not sure, but between those and Cecil, it's an investment of only 10 skill points to get to 12 arcane lore... I have been trying to get the game to spit out pile of dirt details to me, since they aren't stored in the scripts. That's harder, though. I've gotten it to do so, but only when starting a game or teleporting and only for nearby piles, so that's not much help at all. Meh.

I'm gonna look into this. Incidentally, I also looked up the arcane lore details. Almost all spells can be had with 10 lore, and very few take more than 12 (just Host and Blow at 15, I believe). Retribution only takes 12, and if you want to wait to finish Lark's quest, that one seems to take no lore at all. I say "only" because you can pump lore by 6 from using the right items. These may not show up until late, I'm not sure, but between those and Cecil, it's an investment of only 10 skill points to get to 12 arcane lore... I have been trying to get the game to spit out pile of dirt details to me, since they aren't stored in the scripts. That's harder, though. I've gotten it to do so, but only when starting a game or teleporting and only for nearby piles, so that's not much help at all. Meh.

It suddenly occurs to me that Enduring Shield and Armor are supposed to increase your dodge rate. According to the manual, "At higher skill, provides more protection for longer." Wowzers. I wonder how much difference skill makes? (Synergy, any ideas?) If it's at all significant, suddenly a priest-tank becomes very ideal. If it's enough of a difference, you can even pump priest skill enough to cast Retribution et al. quite well without feeling guilty about abandoning defense!

It suddenly occurs to me that Enduring Shield and Armor are supposed to increase your dodge rate. According to the manual, "At higher skill, provides more protection for longer." Wowzers. I wonder how much difference skill makes? (Synergy, any ideas?) If it's at all significant, suddenly a priest-tank becomes very ideal. If it's enough of a difference, you can even pump priest skill enough to cast Retribution et al. quite well without feeling guilty about abandoning defense!

A lot of the skills seem to be buggy that way. Gymnastics is capped at a few at a time, and something else -- I think it was either Luck or Tool Use -- only let me raise 10 at a time. (Yeah, yeah, I know...) A pretty weird, if harmless, bug.

I've culled a nice equipment listing from the script files. I've been adding a little bit of information from the unique item locations thread. I first started doing this when trying to think out what the best strategy for a singleton would be, and I needed more information about what items were out there. Anyway, I hope this will be useful to someone. Suggestions are welcome as well. http://home.uchicago.edu/~tbennett/av4items.htm

Every new game and every change to the basic Spidweb engine(s) brings with it a load of complaints. That's a pattern you'll find everywhere else in the world, too; and change is usually good despite the complaints. But I guess things are a little different here since Spidweb's earliest successes were no-frills products founded on old-fashioned gameplay and interesting stories, and spurning fancy graphics. Exile vs. Realmz seemed to many like David vs. Goliath, but Exile got a lot of support from that conflict, especially as it grew more refined. Quote: Slith couldn't have been creationof the Vantahi, because they camefrom a diffrent world entirley, and were banished there, making them the only real aliens in the game. If by different world entirely, you just mean another set of caves, deeper in the earth, and warmer. Certainly that's all that was said in Exile 1 or 2...

Question: Traps CAN just be set off, can't they? I know some of them have rather disastrous effects, but couldn't you find ways to survive via buffing, in the worst cases trading 1 invulnerability potion for a trap you really want to get past?

Question: Traps CAN just be set off, can't they? I know some of them have rather disastrous effects, but couldn't you find ways to survive via buffing, in the worst cases trading 1 invulnerability potion for a trap you really want to get past?

It worries me that the later enemies have stronger attacks (they'll hit you a lot more, unless you pump defense loads), but they also take less damage from spells, and without dedicating stat-building I'm not sure how effective those priest spells are going to be for you...

It worries me that the later enemies have stronger attacks (they'll hit you a lot more, unless you pump defense loads), but they also take less damage from spells, and without dedicating stat-building I'm not sure how effective those priest spells are going to be for you...

Actually, I think location is the most important part, as all the stats and special effects are easily accessible in the script file. The Heartstriker, for example, does not do any special damage. It just has a nice sound effect.

I still haven't finished the chitrach caves. At some point I really do need to play the game...

I still haven't finished the chitrach caves. At some point I really do need to play the game...

Kel: I am hard pressed to think of ANY RPG, computerized or otherwise, in which you would expect a loner to gain the same quantity of levels as a group would, in toto. It's an extremely standard part of an RPG that it takes more experience (either more raw points, or harder enemies required for the same number of points) to get from level 2 to 3 than from level 1 to 2. Furthermore -- the fact that experience scales is very tenuously connected BOTH to lack of skill points AND to singleton difficulty. Experience scaled in Exile just the same way, but in Exile singletons were never difficult to run (except in terms of inventory management) -- both because of Silverlocke's potions, AND because the game mechanics made it fairly easy for even a medium level singleton with Bless to breeze through most encounters. [Also, nobody else brought up AP (Jeff just said PCs need to "work together") but it's worth pointing out that being attacked CAN take up AP if you get stunned. Anyone who's played a Guardian in Geneforge (without abusing Parry of course) can attest to the dangers there.]

Kel: I am hard pressed to think of ANY RPG, computerized or otherwise, in which you would expect a loner to gain the same quantity of levels as a group would, in toto. It's an extremely standard part of an RPG that it takes more experience (either more raw points, or harder enemies required for the same number of points) to get from level 2 to 3 than from level 1 to 2. Furthermore -- the fact that experience scales is very tenuously connected BOTH to lack of skill points AND to singleton difficulty. Experience scaled in Exile just the same way, but in Exile singletons were never difficult to run (except in terms of inventory management) -- both because of Silverlocke's potions, AND because the game mechanics made it fairly easy for even a medium level singleton with Bless to breeze through most encounters. [Also, nobody else brought up AP (Jeff just said PCs need to "work together") but it's worth pointing out that being attacked CAN take up AP if you get stunned. Anyone who's played a Guardian in Geneforge (without abusing Parry of course) can attest to the dangers there.]

I've been doing some testing to try and figure out how relevant different stats are in calculating damage done. I have only been testing PC attacking monster with melee, but presumably the formulas should be very similar for the reverse, and for other attack types (including magic), substituting stats and resists where appropriate. Getting exact results has been frustrating, because the algorithm seems to involve * random fluctuations based on several stats, and * stats which are not directly recorded in the scripts Here, however, is what I HAVE been able to figure out. Attack strength depends on these things: 1) Weapon or spell multiplier 2) Weapon or spell base damage 3) Weapon or spell level 4) PC skill 5) Extra damage from Anatomy, Lethal Blow, and Demonslayer (I am ignoring this part) 6) Luck (Luck's role is extremely unclear to me, but it definitely increases damage, and inconsistently) Weapon level can be found by examining a weapon, it will be the first number given under the "base damage" listing. Weapon multiplier is the number of times that number goes into the following number -- in other words, the number of sides on the die used for rolling that weapon's damage. Weapon base damage can only be found by looking at the scripts. To calculate PC skill, depending on the attack type, add together: Melee + Blademaster + Strength Pole + Blademaster + Strength Bows + Sharpshooter + Dexterity Throws + Sharpshooter + Dexterity Mage Spells + Spellcraft + Magery Priest Spells + Spellcraft + Magery * Contrary to what I suggested previously, there is NO penalty on any of these numbers if one of them is over 10. Thus melee, blademaster and strength of 15 each will give 45 PC skill. I think there may still be an over-10 reduction-of-benefits for purposes of to-hit %, but haven't tested it. * Blessing increases PC skill, I'm not sure by how much -- seems like by a lot. * Besides damage and hit %, PC skill also increases the effect of weapon abilities like acid drip. The basic damage formula is: Attack level = (? * PC skill) + weapon/spell level Damage = base damage + (Attack level) d (multiplier) In other words, base damage plus a random number somewhere between attack level, and attack level * multiplier, likely to be close to the middle. * One level of PC skill has less influence than one level of the weapon or spell. I'm not sure how much less. I suspect it may be worth 75% as much, based on the relative impact of Tool Use and spellcasting skill on Unlock Doors, hypothesizing that Tool Use replaces spell level for that spell. * The "+X to levels of damage" ability, rarely found on equipment, I suspect adds to the weapon/spell level. The multiplier is often the most important factor in determining damage. For weapons, multipliers and base damage are as follows: Mult = 2, Base = 3 -- Short Swords (and daggers) Mult = 2, Base = 4 -- Bows Mult = 3, Base = 4 -- Broad Swords (and wave blades) Mult = 3, Base = 4 -- Longbows Mult = 3, Base = 12 -- Spears Mult = 4, Base = 8 -- Javelins Mult = 4, Base = 15 -- Halberds (and fine slith spears) Mult = 5, Base = 8 -- Razordisks There are also two special weapons: Mult = 4, Base = 5 -- Stick (a melee weapon) Mult = 7, Base = 20 -- Heartstriker (a bow) For spells we have: Mult = 3, Base = 10 -- Bolt of Fire, Icy Rain Mult = 4, Base = 8 -- Smite Mult = 5, Base = 6 -- Divine Fire Mult = 5, Base = 14 -- Fireblast Mult = 5, Base = 20 -- Lightning Spray Mult = 6, Base = 20 -- Divine Retribution Mult = 6, Base = 30 -- Arcane Blow Mult = 8, Base = 15 -- Repel Spirit Mult = 3, Base = 4 -- Mass Healing Mult = 3, Base = 8 -- Minor Heal Mult = 5, Base = 12 -- Heal Mult = 8, Base = 8 -- Divine Restoration * Amusingly, the stick is potentially the strongest weapon for someone skilled in melee combat. Thankfully the special abilities and to-hit bonuses of the best swords more than make up for this. * The Heartstriker is an amazingly good weapon. * Weapon levels are comparable across weapon types, so a halberd will typically do about 25% more damage than a broad sword. However, all this multiplier-love is somewhat misleading, because of the confusing effects of defense power. At least three stats contribute (in unique ways) to defense power: 1) Resistance of the appropriate type (many monsters have some melee resistance) 2) Hardiness (many monsters have this stat as well) 3) A hidden stat that all monsters have, which I THINK may be based on monster level * Hardiness seems to work much like it has always worked for PC's in Jeff's game, that is, it contributes a RANDOM amount of defense to every attack between 1 (or 0?) and its value. * One of these stats may reduce the multiplier, or each individual die roll, but not the actual rolled damage -- against some monsters, although actual damage was reduced heavily, each point of attack level I added resulted in no less than 1 extra point of average damage. I'm not sure. IMPLICATIONS: 1) Building up skills past 10 is worthwhile, which also means DT + EW and DT + DE are perfectly good trait combinations 2) A good weapon is generally speaking a lot more important than high weapon skill 3) Melee support skills like Quick Action and Anatomy are probably *a lot* more worthwhile to pump than melee, blademaster, or strength 4) Bows are perfectly good 5) At any given time, whether melee or pole skill would be a better choice probably has more to do with what weapons and shields are available than with anything else Any observations that don't line up with the above are very welcome, btw, as I am far from certain about the details of this theory. Phew! -- slarty