Aoslare

If you attack Crowley in chapter 1, he sometimes summons one.

That's a cool tactic.

 

I think the question of whether Lifecrafters or Infiltrators make better shapers depends on enemy attack patterns, something I don't know enough about yet. If lots of enemies target the PC, I'd want the hardier character, otherwise I'd rather have the extra essence for more and better creations.

 

Also, I feel the need to debunk the statement that few things resist physical damage well. Here's all the resistance data from the creature definitions, by creature type and by degree of resistance:

 

PHYSICAL (0)

15-35: Thahd, Serviles, Roamer Family, Vlish Family, Spawner, Turret Family, Specter Family, Glaahk Family, Kyshakk Family, War Trall Family

36-50: Shaper, Agent, Charged Thahd, Unstable Thahd, Clawbug Family, Servant Mind, Submission Turret, Warriors, Battle Alphabet, Drayk, Cryodrayk, Golem, Drakon, Ur-Drakon, Rotghroth Family, Wingbolt Family

51-65: Guardian, Pylon

66-00:

 

MAGICAL (1)

15-35: Vlish Family, Warriors, Pylon

36-50: Shaper, Artila, Servile Casters, Apprentice Mage, Golem, Kyshakk Family

51-65: Agent

66-00: Unstable Thahd, Charged Artila, Inferno Wyrm, Servile Power Techs, Servant Mind, Glaahk Family, Mage, Ur-Drakon, Gazer Family, Wingbolt Family

 

FIRE (2)

15-35: Guardian, Agent, Fyora, Spawner, Warriors, Battle Alphabet, Apprentice Mage, Cryodrayk

36-50: Shaper, Servile Casters, Mage, Gazer Family, War Trall Family

51-65:

66-00: Inferno Wyrm, Servile Techs, Redshell Clawbug, Flaming Shrub, Pylon, Drayk, Golem, Drakon, Ur-Drakon

 

POISON (4)

15-35:

36-50: Vlish Family

51-65:

66-00: Unstable Thahd, Servile Vat Techs, Oozing Worm, Oozing Crawler, Clawbug Family, Servant Mind, Venom Turret, Specter Family, Golem, Rotghroth Family

 

ACID (5)

15-35: Apprentice Mage, Pylon

36-50: Artila Family, Roamer Family, Submission Turret, Mage

51-65:

66-00: Unstable Thahd, Oozebeast, Servile Vat Techs, Oozing Worm, Oozing Crawler, Redshell Clawbug, Burning Turret, Specter Family, Rotghroth Family

 

ICE (6)

15-35: Guardian, Agent, Cryoa, Spawner, Warriors, Battle Alphabet, Apprentice Mage

36-50: Shaper, Servile Casters, Mage, Gazer Family, War Trall Family

51-65:

66-00: Servile Vat Techs, Charged Vlish, Spraying Shrub, Specter Family, Pylon, Cryodrayk, Golem

 

For the most part, only specialized enemies have high resistances to the elements. Nothing resists physical attacks horribly, but almost everything resists them somewhat. So if you have a Drayk and a Kyshakk, the Kyshakk will be useless against Glaahks and Gazers, but will do better damage against most other enemies. Also, the Kyshakk can still use melee against Glaahks and Gazers.

 

Acid and Poison do look like the best overall attack types, though. That said, Rotghroth attacks are not acid attacks, they just deliver the acid status effect.

Whoops. Can somebody move this to the G4 forum?

Here's some useful data on all the creation types. This first table is arranged by shaping type:

       Cost    +2    LV    HP    SP    Melee (x4)    Missile                        Spcl
                           Skill    FX    Mult.    Skill    Base    Acc.    Type    FX    
Fyora        8    11    2    25    20    sed2        3    4    4    75    Fire        
Cryoa        25    32    7    25    400    2        6    0    15    80    Ice    Stun    
Roamer        28    35    10    25    250    2        4    2    8    70    Mag    Acid    
Pyroroamer    15    20    4    2    250    2        --    --                    
Drayk        60    75    24    60    0    8        9    2    25    75    Phys        
Cryodrayk    90    111    28    60    0    8        6    8    15    80    Ice    Stun    
Kyshakk        125    152    25    400    500    2        10    2    20    70    Mag    Elec    
Burning K.    160    195    28    100    500    2        10    10    20    70    Mag    Elec    
Drakon        183    222    32    300    500    13        9    13    25    75    Phys        
Ur-Drakon    220    267    35    300    500    20        10    20    40    75    Phys    Slow    Str

Thahd        12    17    4    60    0    3        --    --                    
Unstable T.    25    37    12    0    0            --    --                    
Clawbug        30    39    10    35    0    4    Pois    --    --                    
Plated C.    50    63    16    10    0    0        --    --                    AP
B. Alpha    55    68    20    60    0    9        --    --                    Str
B. Beta        80    99    26    60    0    9        --    --                    Str
Rotghroth    125    152    28    250    0    19    Acid    --    --                    q,P
Corrupted R.    160    181    37    100    0    23    Acid    --    --                    q,P
War Trall    175    212    32    300    0    2        8    2    15    70    Phys        
Shock Trall    230    279    33    50    0    2        8    2    15    70    Phys        AP

Artila        12    17    4    10    100    2        4    4    8    70    Mag    Acid    
Plated A.    40    51    12    40    100    2        4    0    8    70    Mag    Acid    
Vlish        32    41    12    25    100    4    Pois    5    3    8    70    Mag    Conf    
Charged V.    75    92    12    0    100    4    Pois    5    3    8    70    Mag    Slow    
Glaahk        60    75    20    40    0    10    Stun    --    --                    
Ur-Glaahk    80    99    30    40    0    10    Stun    --    --                    
Wingbolt    125    152    28    75    600    2    Pois    10    8    40    100    Mag        
Unstable W.    140    171    28    75    600    2    Pois    3    20    4    75    Fire        AP
Gazer        180    219    32    180    500    10    Stu+    10    10    40    100    Mag        P,L
Eyebeast    240    291    38    300    500    10    Fea+    10    1    20    Auto    Fire        P,L

Again, some conclusions may be off, especially regarding the unstable varieties I haven't played with, but the data is solid.

 

HP and SP refer to Health and Energy bonuses. All creations get a lot of points in both based on their ability scores and levels.

 

I decided to go through and calculate out average damage as I did for G3. The following table calculates it at three levels. One, at +1 for a fresh creation with minimal shaping skill. One, at +13 for a fresh creation at high skill (the 10-cap makes 13 a likely place to end up at). Finally, one at +33 levels to represent a creation that tags along with you for some time. Presumably, the top tier creations won't be around that long and a Fyora could easily gain 30 levels for a total of +43, but this should make a useful approximation. I did out averages for both melee and missile attacks. Also, it assumes resistance of 0%, which may not accurately reflect prevalent creation resistances for different attack types.

	Cost	+2	LV	Melee			Missile			Spcl
				Lv +1	Lv +13	Lv+33	Lv +1	Lv +13	Lv +33

Fyora		8	11	2	13	28	53	14	26	46	(Fire)
Artila		12	17	4	15	30	55	22	37	62	(Acid)
Plated A.	40	51	12	25	40	65	22	37	62	(Acid)
Roamer		28	35	10	23	38	63	24	39	64	(Acid)
Cryoa		25	32	7	18	33	58	22	43	78	(Ice)	(Stun)
Vlish		32	41	12	30	45	70	34	52	82	(Mag)	(Conf)	(Pois Touch)
Charged V.	75	92	12	30	45	70	34	52	82	(Mag)	(Slow)	(Pois Touch)

Cryodrayk	90	111	28	60	75	100	78	99	134	(Ice)	(Stun)
War Trall	175	212	32	50	65	90	73	100	145	(Phys)
Drayk		60	75	24	55	70	95	88	118	168	(Phys)
Kyshakk		125	152	25	40	55	80	93	126	181	(Mag)	(Elec)
Unstable W.	140	171	28	45	60	85	72	84	104	(Fire)	(12 AP)
Wingbolt	125	152	28	45	60	85	147	180	235	(Mag)		(Pois Touch)
Burning K.	160	195	28	45	60	85	148	181	236	(Mag)	(Elec)
Drakon		183	222	32	78	93	118	163	193	243	(Phys)
Gazer		180	219	32	107	128	163	169	202	257	(Mag)		(Stun Touch)
Shock Trall	230	279	33	50	65	90	73	100	145	(Phys)	(12 AP)
Ur-Drakon	220	267	35	98	113	138	229	262	317	(Phys)	(Slow)

Eyebeast	240	291	38	93	111	141	126	161	216	(Fire - All)	(Fear Touch)

Pyroroamer	15	20	4	15	30	55	--	--	--
Thahd		12	17	4	18	33	58	--	--	--
Plated C.	50	63	16	25	40	65	--	--	--	(Pois Touch)	(10 AP)
Unstable T.	25	37	12	28	43	68	--	--	--
Clawbug		30	39	10	28	43	68	--	--	--	(Pois Touch)				
B. Alpha	55	68	20	53	68	93	--	--	--
Glaahk		60	75	20	55	70	95	--	--	--	(Stun Touch)
B. Beta		80	99	26	60	55	100	--	--	--
Ur-Glaahk	80	99	30	67	82	107	--	--	--	(Stun Touch)
Rotghroth	125	152	28	88	103	128	--	--	--	(Acid Touch)	(QA)
Corrupted R.	160	181	37	108	123	148	--	--	--	(Acid Touch)	(QA)

Battle creations may not be as bad as they were before, but they still suck. Horribly. The most egregious example of this is the War Trall -- the fifth-tier creation! -- which is basically a Drayk with extra HP for three times the essence cost. Ghastly. The Shock Trall is better, but still worse than the Ur-Drakon. Battle Alphas and Betas are still almost categorically worse than Glaahks and Ur-Glaahks, who in turn pale compared to Drayks. Rotghroths have about a 1 in 3 chance of getting a second strike in, making them interesting but a lot worse than Wingbolts.

 

Drayks, Wingbolts, Ur-Drakons, and Eyebeasts look like by FAR the best values. Of the earlier creations, Cryoas and Artilas look like the best bet. Artila and Drayks are more economical and probably available earlier than Cryoas and Wingbolts. So Fire Shaping and Magic Shaping both look like viable paths.

 

However, ramping up creation damage and multipliers also means that the level bonus for high shaping skill is a lot less critical. It'll get freshly made Drayks an extra 25% or so of damage and a bunch of HP, but a +1 Drayk will still do more damage than a +13 Glaahk, for the same cost in essence. So there's less need to specialize in one shaping skill. That plus the superiority of late game creations means that unlike in G3, the most powerful creations are not going to be the Vlish you take through the whole game. (Augh, my poor Vlish... so nerfed!)

 

That actually changes a whole lot. Suddenly, it may be more useful for shaping types to spend skill points on magic and combat abilities. And Infiltrators can utilize creations nearly as well as Lifecrafters. Alternately, a Lifecrafter might plug all their skill points into Intelligence and end up with much better armies through 100% of the game than if they had pumped shaping skills. Finally, the "disposable creations" strategy now looks much better than the "drag them along" strategy, possibly always and definitely before you get Drayks.

 

I think my Lifecrafter plan is now: pump Int and make Artilas, then boost Fire Shaping a little and make Drayks, throwing in a few Kyshakks for damage type variety and HP, and then Ur-Drakons for power.

Just as in previous games (and A4), the most important factor in damage is the damage multiplier of your attack type. Here's a partial list, which leaves out some items but hits most weapons, spells, and creation attacks:

 

3 - Thorn batons

3 - Firebolt

3 - Fyora, Unstable Wingbolt breath

 

4 - Most melee attacks

4 - Javelins

4 - Searer

4 - Artila, Plated Artila, Roamer breath

 

5 - Broadsword melee attacks (PC only)

5 - Venom batons

5 - Essence Orbs

5 - Vlish, Charged Vlish breath

 

6 - Acid batons

6 - Ice spray

6 - Cryoa, cryodrayk breath

 

7 - Submission batons

 

8 - Wands of disruption

8 - War Trall, Shock Trall breath

 

9 - Drayk, drakon breath

 

10 - Kill, Aura of Flames, Essence Lances

10 - Wingbolt, Gazer, Eyebeast, Kyshakk, burning kyshakk, Ur-drakon breath

 

12 - Reaper batons

 

There is also base damage, but that scales with the mulitplier in pretty much every case.

 

You get one level of the multiplier (i.e., 1-3 damage with Firebolt) for each skill level you have. Several numbers go into that depending on the attack type:

 

PC MELEE: Str + Melee Weapons + Weapon Bonus

 

CREATION MELEE: Str + Attack Skill

 

PC MISSILE: Dex + Missile Weapons + Weapon Bonus

 

CREATION MISSILE: Str + Attack Skill

 

PC MAGIC: Magic Discipline Skill + Spellcraft + Individual Spell Skill

 

This same bonus is used to calculate to-hit chance, except for creations where Dex is used for that instead of Str (for all attacks).

 

Observations:

 

With high enough Quick Action, melee attacks from your PC are equivalent to a multiplier of about 11 (2 x avg 3 vs 1 x avg 6). However, that much investment in Quick Action means your attack skill might be lower than for a comparable magic-user investing in just Battle Magic and Spellcraft. Melee, it looks like, holds its own with mid-level magic spells, but may be somewhat less powerful than Kill spells and Reapers. OTOH, it doesn't run out, and lets you save your essence for Daze or Dominate. ...OTOH, physical damage resistance is more common among creations and serviles and so forth, while magic and ice resistance are still pretty rare.

 

The Ice Lances spell no longer stuns! It also no longer costs essence. Breath from cryoas and cryodrakes still stuns. Also, regular Vlish no longer slow... they confuse their victims?!

 

I haven't finished my creation analysis yet (I am missing a very crucial component... essence costs! Anyone have a list?), but it looks like a number of the later creations do truly excellent damage: Drayks, Kyshakks, Drakons, Wingbolts, and Gazers. War Tralls (fifth tier) seem quite inferior to Drayks (third tier), whose breath does non-elemental physical damage now.

Too much information.

 

Strategy Central was helpful because I constructed it after-the-fact; there were lots of discussions I left out and I only linked to things that had specific useful information. That won't sort itself out automatically as people post. Someone has to do the sorting, and that requires the perspective granted by time.

Does this mean that empty pots and boxes are the new doors?

 

"I can't hit-and-run. Oh, wait -- there's an empty pot around that corner! I'd better inspect it, coincidentally getting out of this kyshakk's sight..."

One of the first things I noticed about G4 is that the relationship between class strengths and various statistics is not as obvious as you might expect. This is an attempt at clearing things up a bit.

 

Disclaimer: I haven't played through most of the game, so some of my conclusions may be suspect. The data I do have is solid, however.

 

HEALTH, SPELL ENERGY, and ESSENCE FORMULAS BY CLASS

           Warr  Serv  S.T.  Life  Infl

HP (Mult)  10/8  10/8   8/8   7/8   8/8
   (Base)    28    30    28    20    20

SP (Mult)   8/8  12/8  14/8  12/8  14/8
   (Base)    20    16    28    28    28

EP (Mult)   6/8   6/8   8/8   8/8   7/8
   (Base)    10    10    10    10    10

 

The basic formula for all three stats is:

Stat = Base + ((Level + 1) * Int/End * Multiplier)

 

HP uses Endurance while SP and EP use Intelligence.

 

The important thing to note is that the multiplier is far, far more important than the base score, once you are past the first few experience levels. (I am not 100% sure I have the exact multipliers, but they are very close.)

 

EFFECTIVE SKILL DIFFERENCES BETWEEN CLASSES

           Warr  Serv  S.T.  Life  Infl

Melee #      11    11     8     3     7
Missile #     9     9     6     5     8
Quick Act.    7     7     3     1     3
Parry         8     8     3     0     3

Battle M.     1     4     1     4     6
Mental M.     1     3     1     3     6
Bless  M.     1     4     1     4     6
Spellcraft    0     1     0     1     3

Fire   S.     3     1     4     4     1
Battle S.     2     1     4     4     1
Magic  S.     2     0     3     3     0
Heal   M.     4     2     6     6     2

Intelligence  2     2     4     4     3

 

This table basically represents several things with one number:

(1) Base stats

(2) Practical impact of cheaper/more expensive skills for different classes

(3) For melee and missile attacks, base Strength and Dexterity stats

 

It basically tells you "For the same investment of skill points, a Warrior will have 5 more points of Parry than an Infiltrator," for example.

 

For #2, if you do out the math, you will discover that the difference between two classes in how much of a stat they can get for a given skill point investment remains relatively constant across any number of skill points. The differences vary depending on how base cost of the skill. That is a simplification, but one that offers a good representation of things.

 

Observations:

 

(1) The two fighting classes get rather significant statistical bonuses related to melee combat. They also get about a 25% HP bonus over the other classes and a sizeable Parry bonus. Large bonuses! The existence of the Servile means that (unlike with the Agent) there is really no reason to make a melee-oriented Infiltrator.

 

(2) The Infiltrator's magic bonus is real, but not gigantic. Compared to the Servile and Lifecrafter, she gets a bonus of about +4 for any given spell.

 

(3) The Warrior is nearly as good at shaping as the shaping classes, especially if you want Fire Shaping. He does however have a 25% essence penalty, and has 2 fewer points in Intelligence. So his creations are good, he just can't have as many. Seems like nice balancing!

 

(4) Despite being awful at magic, the Shock Trooper gets loads of Spell Energy. However, I still can't see any compelling reason to use this character! If you pump shaping skills a Lifecrafter will be better -- it's easy to snag some useful points in magic but you won't have enough skill points to pump all your melee skills to a relevant level. If you don't pump shaping skills much, a Warrior seems like a better deal.

 

(5) If, as suggested elsewhere, the late game creations are very powerful even at low levels, an Infiltrator with shaping skills and high Int might actually be one of the most powerful builds. On the other hand, if the advanced versions (which still require shaping skills of 5 or 6 for the top three tiers) are the best, Lifecrafters will still come out far ahead.

 

Thoughts? Observations?

 

Tomorrow: data on all of the creations.

The Servile is the class I have been waiting for since I started running melee agents in G2. More balanced than I was expecting, though. Analysis forthcoming.

 

Anyone care to explain what this 'Great Change' consisted of?

I'm impressed that Erika's Legacy was the first third-party scenario you played, and yet you have played so many since then.

 

That was the one that turned Erika into a Crystal Soul and kept talking about "Rentarino", no?

What Thuryl said.

 

The later Wizardry games had nice names for skills like that. Legerdemain referred to stealing stuff, while there was Skulduggery for picking locks, and so on.

How many PC's do you play with? One, typically. Sometimes I'll do a party of two or three. Every so often I try six, then remember how annoying I find the experience distribution.

How many scenarios have you played? Probably forty or so, over the years, though I've only played five or six all the way through.

Absolute favorite BoE scenario? Nephil's Gambit, by many miles

When did you get the registered version of BoE for the first time? Several days after it was first released

What is the first third-party scenario you played? I'm not sure. The first one I remember was Riddle of the Spheres, but it might well have been another.

Favorite all-around scenario designer? Maybe Drizzt.

Out of your own scenarios, which do you feel is your best? Let's see, out of the four scenarios I started and never finished...

What is your favorite scenario icon? It's been a while, and BoE doesn't run on my current computer, alas.

If you could make one BoE scenario into a movie, which scenario would it be? I haven't played most of Creator's scenarios, but I imagine one of those

What is your favorite spell? I'll go with Flame Cloud.

What is your favorite item of all time? (It doesn't matter how many scenarios have the item in it. Can be one, can be all.) I remember one scenario that had NPCs who were transformed into ego items. That was neat.

What do you think is the absolute most overrated BoE scenario of all time? Tatterdemalion. I don't like that thing at all.

What do you think is the absolute most underrated BoE scenario of all time? Valley of Dying Things. It isn't spectacular, but it isn't nearly as bad as the way people talk about it. I get the impression it would have insanely better reviews if it were a third-party scenario.

If you could add one new feature to BoE or the scenario editor, what would it be? OS X compatibility.

What is your least favorite scenario out of those rated 7.0 or higher on CSR? ...Tatterdemalion

Which scenario do you think is the worst ever? There's lots of horribles, but only one can be the absolute worst. War of Exile.

What is your favorite TM scenario? Nebulous Times Hence

What is your favorite Creator scenario? Haven't played enough to judge

What is your favorite scenario in the Spheres trilogy? Only played the first one.

What scenario do you think should have won the first design contest? Nephil's Gambit, hands down.

Name one random scenario that has not been mentioned by anyone in this thread (first that comes in your head.) Election!

If TM returned, and he and Kel continued to argue, do you think that should continue, or do you think they just have to duke it out? I'm picturing that scene from Return of the Jedi, with Marlenny as nearly naked Leia, Kel as Han Solo and TM as Jabba. Hee.

One question: please tell me that selling prices aren't affected by reputation with a sect...

Synergy, that -S- gimmick lost its panache a looooong time ago...

It's not important. I'd wager that the characters in said safehouse were based on acquaintances of Jeff's (much like Solberg and Jordan appear to have been) and that was a phrase they used online. Put the cat together with the two ladies there and you can construct a story, certainly...

The same images for Healing and Curing spells have been used for so many different spells between Nethergate, four Avernum games and now four Geneforge games that they are just messed up in my head. Personally, I'd like to see new healing and curing images that don't constantly get switched around. Otherwise, the images are just confusing.

Dominatrish

What I mean is that GF loads parameters from those files when it starts up. So you aren't just editing one saved game, or one particular occurance of an item -- you're editing every occurance of that item ever. Similarly, it is possible to make the game crash with certain invalid values. So edit a backup. Common sense really.

There is not a guide, although there may be advice scattered throughout this message board. There are three files you will want to look at in the scripts folder, which should begin "gf1" or "g3" or something like that. the items/chars one is the one you want. Most of the entries are pretty self-explanatory, just find the one for the item you want to edit, find the attribute that looks like it affects ability power, and change it.

 

And for the love of god, do this on a complete copy of the game folder, as it affects the whole application.

This is true of almost any level of difficulty you can find in a turn-based game, though. It's particularly inevitable in Jeff's games not directly because of the business model but because his games are sidequest-heavy. On the other hand, the difficulty level setting is an unusual feature that helps a lot. Torment is usually challenging -- at least until you break the system by making seven levelled-up Vlish or whatever.

In any game, if you are an experienced player adept at finding ways to turn the rules to your advantage, the only way to continue being challenged is to impose your own outside restrictions on what you can do. Hence the "single character challenges" and "low level challenges" that float around the net for console RPGs. Try playing any Geneforge as a Shaper-type who doesn't shape. Or try playing with stealth and avoiding *all* XP, not just from combat, only completing the quests that are absolutely necessary to continue the storyline. That could be very difficult.

Clearly Salmon will die of food poisoning from tainted spam.

That was a fake screenshot, edited I assume by Drakey, the evil infidel who spurs on the venomous plots of the Vahnatai Creationists.

Rox0rs.

 

Incidentally, can I say how glad I am to finally, finally, for the first time since 1997, to have totally escaped from the tyrrany of Geneva 10 Bold?

The trick with the vampire is to have a bunch of creations that hit things easily, and then equip the Magic Blessed Spawnerskin Torc of Incantatorialistic Burning Wizardry, so you get the HP bonus from your creations. As a side note this finally makes it worthwhile to invest in Endurance, at least when it's cheap.

 

Has anyone found a use for the Ring of Ma'Ruf that's hidden in Learned Darian's toilet yet?

That certainly isn't true, whether you are talking about levels of Create X skills or the general Shaping skills.