Aoslare

An Artila and Wingbolt of equal level will differ in HP by exactly 65. If yours has half the HP, then I suspect your Artila was not created as soon as possible with 10 Magic Shaping. A few levels make a big difference.

 

(That said, it seems like creations earn slightly less a proportion of your own XP than they did in G3, but I'm not sure about that. I should measure it.)

 

Also, it seems that ice breath no longer causes stunning. The line in the definitions is still there, but I guess it's an out-of-date line that G4 doesn't implement. Sigh!

 

Mental effect resistance, hrm. Running out of energy, hrm. OK, my new plan is to start making Ur-Drakons when I'm at level 3...

They aren't broken the way Vlish were in G3, they aren't even overpowered, but they're very, very good.

 

I was comparing the upper level creations, looking at average damage (accounting for damage type) versus cost. Then I glanced over at the Cryoa, which I had already noticed was one of the better early creations, post-Vlish-nerfing.

 

Then I noticed that if you keep a Cryoa around the whole game, by the time you get access to Cryodrayks, the Cryoa will be nearly as powerful. Specifically, it should be at a similar level, with a weaker attack, slightly lower resistance to physical and cold damage, 400 extra energy, and of course a significantly reduced essence cost.

 

However, if you pump up the Cryoa's strength 5 or 6 times, it ends up with an attack equal to a Cryodrayk's... and it still costs about half what a Cryodrayk does! It actually ends up being a slightly better value than the Drayk, depending on what the exact numbers are.

 

I also did the numbers out for Artila, and they work out OK. Although it's even cheaper to pump Artila Strength, their attack does 1-4 per level of damage rather than 1-6, so they don't get the same return. A level 40 Artila will still only do about 60 damage a shot. As SoT noted, however, acid damage is the most consistent damage type in G4. And both Cryoas and Artilas are available at the very start of the game.

 

If you want to use them, though, you really do need to pump a shaping skill, so you have to make a choice. Either one would work, actually. Magic Shaping is more limited. Vlish and Glaahks are okay, but their damage can't hold up late in the game. Wingbolts are great. However, because Wingbolts (and Gazers) do the oft-highly resisted Magic damage, you will become reliant on the Artila. I think a team of 4 Artila and maybe 3 Wingbolts would be pretty effective, and is fairly cheap in essence. At high levels you could switch the Wingbolts out for Eyebeasts if you wanted. Alternately, since you don't have to pump Int too high, pump Mental Magic and support the critters that way.

 

I find Cryoa more exciting, probably because there are a variety of useful Fire Shaping creations. Also, Cryoa breath stuns, and ice damage is great damage unless you fight shades. (Then it sucks worse than a Battle Beta.)

 

Roamers are available for acid. They will end up with weaker attacks than the Artila would, since they are available later, and they won't be too useful in random fights, but I can think of a few where they'd be golden (golems and pylons, mainly). Drayks are a great value and will be comparable to the Cryoa, but dealing physical damage. Skipping over the expensive, lardy Kyshakks, the coup de grace is the Ur-Drakon, which does huge damage AND slows. Before adding them this team is very cheap, and even with 2 Ur-Drakons it shouldn't break 700 essence, 500 with one. Doable by the time you get them.

 

Anyway, I've just started a game with the Cryoa variant. Put all my points into Fire Shaping and made a Cryoa, once I got to 10 points went into Int. I'm at level 7 now towing two level 20 Cryoas. So far it's a piece of cake. Once I've made another few, I'll start paying attention to all those other skills. (Looking at the character info screen, seeing that Luck costs 1 and not buying it is a tremendous act of restraint on my part. )

You can't find out the number in-game, although Mercedia in the Thellite Colony will tell you if you are above or below 100. You can also go to one of the people who does check the number and see how they react (i.e., Darnor or Mouawad)

Either that, or have a decent reputation with the Shapers and a few points in Leadership.

However, as far as I can tell betraying the Safehouse has no actual gameplay effects aside from the reputation change and reward.

Some of the code for fleeing serviles or guards gives experience for each, but is set to only give the reputation change once. I couldn't tell how the Cairn Gates one was set up because it was a few weird-looking nodes in the zone dialogue code itself.

 

Did you notice above where I said there are very few times the number is actually referenced? Look at the chart. Grim and Manohla give exactly the same rewards. Also, Darnor's aren't particularly useful rewards.

 

For some of the quests that depend on you killing someone, you get credit when they die. However, for some of them, you get credit only when you choose the conversation option to tell them you are going to kill them in an overdramatic way.

 

I may try to update this to include which quests can be performed in only one way or in both ways, and also what all the rewards are and the interaction with passes and other flags.

Suppose you tried to do the same thing with a Lifecrafter.

 

You'd have weaker melee skills. You'd have about 1/3 less Health and more than 1/3 more Essence. So as far as being less survivable goes, the difference isn't that huge -- maybe 12% of your Parry rate probably made up for by having creation meatshields, and 1/3 less Health. In practice you'd wear more suitable items to buff your creations, so your melee skills wouldn't be amazing at all. And a Servile can certainly do more damage than any single creation. But far less than even a group of cheap tier 3 creations, if we're talking about Drayks.

 

Randomizer, when you say you maxxed out at 22 Int, are you talking about an essence cap, or just how much you needed?

Something I did not take into account is the difference in item bonuses. Later in the game, there are some pretty ridiculous melee bonuses available (+2 Str, +2 Melee Weapons and +4 QA, to start with one item) whereas the spellcasting bonuses are smaller, just a few that net +1 to +4 per item between Battle Magic and Spellcraft.

 

All told a Servile can accrue, from items alone:

+14 Strength

+10 Melee

+1 Levels Damage

+6 QA

+1 Parry

+12 Vampiric Touch

 

while still making sure to get +2 AP. Throw in starting stats and a meager investment of skill points and you are hard pressed to avoid ending up with a melee machine. Of course, you also have a nice selection of ancillary effects -- poison, acid, curse, and stun -- at your disposal.

 

So we are back to the G1 paradigm of "if you reach it, it dies" -- except that now you can always reach it, you have Parry, better HP, and much better access to much better buffs. Plus, since you didn't have to spend lots of skill points getting there, you can pump Mental Magic to high heaven and never worry about a thing.

 

That said, I'm still not sure that a well-planned regiment of creations won't do better.

So, Shapers and Rebels both rely on one number to tell if they like you or not. It starts at 100 and changes when you complete most quests and a small number of conversations. Obviously, for many of these you an choose the + or - option but not both. Here's a complete list of the things that can change it:

 

-5 Shaila dies

-2 Deal with Master Thell for Joakim

-3 Guide Caravan through Cairn Gates

-3 Guide Caravan through Cairn Gates (double?)

-2 Allow Sandia to escape

-2 Free Reiner and tell him to escape

-1 Q: Barbaro

-1 First Research Notes given to Fackler

-1 Lie to Alwan about mission (or refuse to talk)

-2 Q: Mars

-1 Q: Mouawad

-2 Per escaping Servile refugee (?)

-2 Destroy Eliza and report it to Pirik

-2 Destroy Shaftoe and report it to Pirik

-1 Q: Ozyss

-3 Destroy Heart (or return it to Darnor)

-3 Scout Turabi Gate for Darnor

-3 Clear 31st Camp

-2 Help Zorin's Rebels escape

-3 Kill Eliza

-3 Kill Shaftoe

-3 Kill Moseh

-3 Give Monarch's papers to Greta

-2 Betray Archibald to Ellsworth

-2 Contact Vecsey for Ellsworth

-2 Kill Cantor

-2 Kill Tycho

-4 Destroy Shaper camp for Litalia

-3 Free prisoners for Manohla

-3 Kill infiltrators for Ossissess

-1 per trapped rebel who escapes (?)

-1 Pledge escape to trapped rebels

-1 Kill Horis

-1 Q: Greta

 

+5 Walk Shaila to Forsaken Docks

+2 Betray sinkhole rebels

+1 Report Sinkhole rebels' deaths to Crowley

+2 Betray Burkes to Crowley

+2 Agree with Master Thell

+5 Betray Caravan

+2 Kill Sandia (or convince her to return)

+2 Free Reiner and tell him to return

+1 Q: Barbaro

+1 Tell Alwan about mission

+4 Betray Illya Safehouse to Alwan

+5 Help Moseh and report it to Alwan

+2 Destroy Moseh and report it to Alwan

+2 Show Rebel Papers to Alwan

+2 Q: Mars

+2 Betray Drewry to Kane

+2 Betray Lilly to Kane

+1 Q: Mouawad

+3 Return Heart to Mouawad

+1 Q: Ozyss

+2 Kill Zorin's Rebels

+3 Destroy Mutated Thahd for Eliza

+3 Kill Krazo and Mystithus for Shaftoe

+3 Help Moseh

+2 Kill Nakel

+3 Give Monarch's papers to Miranda

+1 Contact spy for Miranda

+1 Report scout's death to Miranda

+2 Betray Vecsey to Miranda

+2 Let Tycho go

+2 Kill cultists for Krogstad

+2 Sabotage Rebel defenses for Yngrid

+1 Kill trapped rebels at fort

+2 Help Horis shape new Kyshakk

+1 Tell Alwan of meeting with Litalia

+2 Give Drakon specifications to Alwan

+2 Tell Alwan Citadel's location, but no Drakon info

+2 Help all five infiltrators for Koerner

+3 Kill Litalia for Koerner

+2 Tell Kiki about Litalia's papers

+2 Give Rebel Papers to Kiki

+2 Destroy rogue trall for Kantor

+2 Kill chief and shaman for Dameron

+1 Q: Greta

+2 Get scrolls for Dalia

 

Here's a complete list of the things that are open to you when the number is high or low enough. The second column indicates whether or not Leadership reduces the requirement. "Yes" means it does so on a 1:1 basis, "1/3" means only 1/3 the value of your Leadership is used. As you can see, there are not actually many points that rely on this number:

 

109+	Yes	Alwan -- Moseh quest (Shaped Breastplate)
105+	Yes	Duncan -- training
105+	No	Mouawad -- 1st reward
112+	No	Mouawad -- 2nd reward (Thirsting Knife)
120+	No	Mouawad -- 3rd reward (Ring of Eye's Purity) (+3 Battle Magic)
120+	Yes	Matala -- lets you go
115+	Yes	Alwan -- Northforge Citadel quest
110+	1/3	Grim -- 1st reward
124+	1/3	Grim -- 2nd reward (Farsight Breastplate)
136+	1/3	Grim -- 3rd reward (Agent's Shelter)
105+	No	Shotwell -- join party

104-	No	Pirik -- Safehouse key
95-	No	Darnor -- 1st reward
88-	No	Darnor -- 2nd reward (Firecaster Gauntlets) (+1 Battle, Blessing Magic)
80-	No	Darnor -- 3rd reward (Girdle of Life) (+2 Endurance)
90-	Yes	Gibbons -- buy canisters
100-	No	Khur -- join party
90-	No	Manohla -- 1st reward
80-	No	Manohla -- 2nd reward (Farsight Breastplate)
68-	No	Manohla -- 3rd reward (Agent's Shelter)
100-	No	Ossissess -- Kill infiltrators quest

N.B.: There are also places in the game where what happens is based on a specific choice you made. This section does not cover those, and they may be important. Perhaps someone who's played through repeatedly can say something about those?

 

Manohla and Grim give the same rewards. There are a number of other places where the rewards are equal: Alwan and Pirik's reward for the caravan mission, for example, and killing or helping Yngrid. With that as a caveat, here is a list of some of the more interesting quest rewards in the scripts. Some of these might be acquireable by killing someone or looting something instead of talking to them; I'm not sure.

 

Joakim -- Steel Sword and Shield

Gretchen -- Tinker's Bauble

Fackler -- Gauntlets of Succor

Alwan / Pirik -- Shaped Gauntlets

Kane -- Guardian Stone

Mouawad -- Skein of Wisdom

Pirik -- Shaped Blade (Moseh)

Pirik -- Mindwarp Seal (Eliza) (+2 Mental Magic)

Pirik -- Runed Jade Necklace (Shaftoe) (+1 Spellcraft)

Trianus -- Shaped Belt

Greta -- Mental Focus Charm (+1 Spellcraft)

Stubbs -- Demon's Bile

Jared -- Singing Rapier (+2 QA, +1 Parry, but d4 damage)

Monarch -- Shaper Robe, Armor Band

Yngrid -- Infiltrator's Charm

Litalia -- Puresteel Necklace

Litalia -- Viper's Touch (Shaped Blade w/ Poison Drip)

Ossissess -- Stasis Shield, Puresteel Boots

Koerner -- Polychromous Shield, Blasted Greaves (+1 Str, +2 End)

Koerner -- Spectral Rapier (Litalia) (+2 Parry, +2 Mental Magic, but d4 damage)

Ghaldring -- Puresteel Charm (+1 Str, +1 Damage)

Learned Hartl -- Impervious Band

Szmani -- Projection Belt

Ssaroyen -- Puresteel Shield

Hmm.

 

On second thought, I don't remember when I tested this, so maybe I never did for GF1-3. Doh.

I'm in the middle of chapter 2 and have about 7500 gold on hand. That's after spending 5000 on Spellcraft and another chunk of change on a selection of spells. Granted, I haven't bought any creations, but those wouldn't cost too much.

 

I'm sure stuff gets more expensive, but I find it hard to believe there's going to be the massive financial crunch people have been commenting on.

You have to be close enough to see what he is doing, but far enough to not trigger the message you got. I recommend following just behind him as he walks south, and saving just before he enters the room. Then you can try different positions to see what works.

The "regenerating" life drain item enhancement in G3 actually worked quite well for a melee-based PC. I guess that's gone the way of the Emerald Chestguard, huh?

Nope. In Geneforge (and A4) Str, Dex, Int, and End are all determined based on level, and base level is multiplied by some factor dependng on your difficulty.

Assuming it is the same as with every other spidweb game, difficulty affects only one thing directly: enemy experience level. This in turn affects their health, attack power, and dodge and hit rates.

I just searched the scripts. It appears the only items there are unlimited "collection quests" for are Research Notes, Swamp Herbs, and Melted Glass.

 

That's going to lighten my inventory!

Because the essence calls don't actually mean anything -- other than your PC, nobody in the game checks essence when they cast things.

You're right, both of those are random drops with a base chance of 1%. That means that however luck affects the chance, it affects it in a very significant way.

Synergy, I think some of those drops are unique drops and not random ones. That is, individual enemies can be made to "carry" items which will appear when they are killed. Luck will never create item drops, but it WILL increase the chance of random ones, presumably by 1% per point of Luck at least up to 10. Having just 5 Luck makes a really noticeable increase in the number of dropped items.

 

EDIT: I tend to put a lot of points into Luck right away (except when min-maxing vlish in g3). The first few levels are so cheap, it's a no-brainer. After that, it is worthwhile once your other skills get equally expensive, but I buy it sooner to increase my item drops.

I'm not convinced.

 

Melee is better -- partially because of what you mentioned and partially because PCs (but not creations) now have a 5-multiplier melee attack, the new broadswords, which I failed to mention in my attack types thread. That amounts to a flat 20% damage increase, plus a manueverability increase.

 

That's all good and well when you are attacking one enemy over and over, or a swarm of enemies that cluster around you. But if you're attacking enemies that use ranged attacks, they don't stay close enough to hit two different enemies on the same turn when you are hasted. So ranged attacks still have that big advantage, of always being able to use all attacks when hasted.

 

I do want to try, at some point, a Missile Servile who puts all his points into Dex, to get deadly missiles and a super-high dodge rate. The engine previously nerfed that by not allowing consistently high dodge rates and I'm not sure if it still will, but it's a nice idea.

Free skill boosts are great, but keep in mind they work completely differently -- you always get them and they don't affect the cost of new points in a skill. Trainers are a more strategic issue basically requiring advance planning, since you can only use them if you haven't yet put points into the skill in question. When trainers are available early and train "expensive" skills, it's easy to hold off and make use of them. When available late, they are often more frustrating than helpful.

Is it possible that these discrepancies come from earlier betas?

 

The artifacts all have the usual listings in the item definitions file, and it would be quite a departure for any random element to exist with that at all. Shapemaster Boots for example list a flat 16% armor and the 10% HER for creations -- +3 levels of damage for creations just isn't there.

Anyone make a list?

 

I was reminded by my discovery of the Spellcraft trainer, who is very near the start for such a relevant and expensive (in skill points) skill.

So, from a plotless munchkin min-maxing perspective, what are the benefits at various points to siding with the Rebels or the Shapers?

 

Your 'reputation' seems to be controlled by a single variable that starts at 100. The game scripts have 82 calls that increment or decrement it, many of which do not trigger the little "Your reputation with the _ has increased" message. For example, if Shaila dies you get -5 towards the Rebels, and if you walk her to the Forsaken Docks you get +5 towards the Shapers.

 

There are 41 calls to look it up to determine what happens. However, most of those 41 are in a small handful of zones. It is also worth noting that many of those calls allow your Leadership to replace needed points in either direction on a 1:1 basis.

If you attack Crowley in chapter 1, he sometimes summons one.

That's a cool tactic.

 

I think the question of whether Lifecrafters or Infiltrators make better shapers depends on enemy attack patterns, something I don't know enough about yet. If lots of enemies target the PC, I'd want the hardier character, otherwise I'd rather have the extra essence for more and better creations.

 

Also, I feel the need to debunk the statement that few things resist physical damage well. Here's all the resistance data from the creature definitions, by creature type and by degree of resistance:

 

PHYSICAL (0)

15-35: Thahd, Serviles, Roamer Family, Vlish Family, Spawner, Turret Family, Specter Family, Glaahk Family, Kyshakk Family, War Trall Family

36-50: Shaper, Agent, Charged Thahd, Unstable Thahd, Clawbug Family, Servant Mind, Submission Turret, Warriors, Battle Alphabet, Drayk, Cryodrayk, Golem, Drakon, Ur-Drakon, Rotghroth Family, Wingbolt Family

51-65: Guardian, Pylon

66-00:

 

MAGICAL (1)

15-35: Vlish Family, Warriors, Pylon

36-50: Shaper, Artila, Servile Casters, Apprentice Mage, Golem, Kyshakk Family

51-65: Agent

66-00: Unstable Thahd, Charged Artila, Inferno Wyrm, Servile Power Techs, Servant Mind, Glaahk Family, Mage, Ur-Drakon, Gazer Family, Wingbolt Family

 

FIRE (2)

15-35: Guardian, Agent, Fyora, Spawner, Warriors, Battle Alphabet, Apprentice Mage, Cryodrayk

36-50: Shaper, Servile Casters, Mage, Gazer Family, War Trall Family

51-65:

66-00: Inferno Wyrm, Servile Techs, Redshell Clawbug, Flaming Shrub, Pylon, Drayk, Golem, Drakon, Ur-Drakon

 

POISON (4)

15-35:

36-50: Vlish Family

51-65:

66-00: Unstable Thahd, Servile Vat Techs, Oozing Worm, Oozing Crawler, Clawbug Family, Servant Mind, Venom Turret, Specter Family, Golem, Rotghroth Family

 

ACID (5)

15-35: Apprentice Mage, Pylon

36-50: Artila Family, Roamer Family, Submission Turret, Mage

51-65:

66-00: Unstable Thahd, Oozebeast, Servile Vat Techs, Oozing Worm, Oozing Crawler, Redshell Clawbug, Burning Turret, Specter Family, Rotghroth Family

 

ICE (6)

15-35: Guardian, Agent, Cryoa, Spawner, Warriors, Battle Alphabet, Apprentice Mage

36-50: Shaper, Servile Casters, Mage, Gazer Family, War Trall Family

51-65:

66-00: Servile Vat Techs, Charged Vlish, Spraying Shrub, Specter Family, Pylon, Cryodrayk, Golem

 

For the most part, only specialized enemies have high resistances to the elements. Nothing resists physical attacks horribly, but almost everything resists them somewhat. So if you have a Drayk and a Kyshakk, the Kyshakk will be useless against Glaahks and Gazers, but will do better damage against most other enemies. Also, the Kyshakk can still use melee against Glaahks and Gazers.

 

Acid and Poison do look like the best overall attack types, though. That said, Rotghroth attacks are not acid attacks, they just deliver the acid status effect.