Slariton

Is there some technical reason why A4 (and other games) are so unhappy with ever being in the background? I have to say, it's kind of annoying.

No, not at all.

1) The only thing you actually *need* Tool Use for is getting past the "alarm" traps that make towns hostile. All other traps can be ignored, and any door Tool Use will help open can be opened without it.

2) You won't get to 15. The most you can get out of the trait is 12 points, at level 60. Even a singleton is not likely to get more than 9 points out of it (levels 42-47) and for most of the game, you'll have significantly less. To be fair, you can buy two levels in Almaria if you really want to wait that long, and there is also the +3 from equipment which is timely enough. But even with those bonuses, you'll have to invest skill points to get up to 15 or 16.

3) Even if you want to put points in Tool Use manually, do the math -- it's NOT a savings compared with the other traits. It costs 42 skill points to buy 12 points of Tool Use (40 if you wait till after Almaria). The trait will give you 9 levels (if you don't mind waiting till the end of the game to have use of all of them), so that's a savings of 38-40 skill points.

That's the equivalent of about 7 levels of Priest Spells, or 6 of Mage Spells. Pure Spirit and Natural Mage increase those stats at the same rate as Nimble Fingers increases Tool Use. However, if you plan on using much magic, you are obviously going to want to buy more than 6 or 7 levels. Since trait skill bonuses don't increase the cost to buy skill levels, the skill points you save should essentially be calculated starting with the first level you don't buy. i.e., if I buy 6 levels of Priest Spells and get a bonus 4 levels, the bonus 4 levels are not worth (4 + 4 + 5 + 5 = 18) but (7 + 7 + 8 + 8 = 30).

So basically, at ANY point in the game, unless you forego magic entirely, you are ALWAYS better off buying Tool Use manually and selecting a different trait. In the mid and late game, the magic traits outshine Nimble Fingers by truly ridiculous proportions.

(Admittedly, I'd rather have the First Aid bonus than the Magical Efficiency, but even if you value M.E. at zero (which is unfair) First Aid is a cheap skill and the bonus to it is small (1 + 1 every 10 levels).

Elite Warrior is also a better deal. Parry costs 3 to start with, I don't remember what Blademaster is -- I think 4, but it's effectively a lot higher since you have to waste a bunch of points in the hand-to-hand weapon skill you're not using in order to access it.

No, not at all.

1) The only thing you actually *need* Tool Use for is getting past the "alarm" traps that make towns hostile. All other traps can be ignored, and any door Tool Use will help open can be opened without it.

2) You won't get to 15. The most you can get out of the trait is 12 points, at level 60. Even a singleton is not likely to get more than 9 points out of it (levels 42-47) and for most of the game, you'll have significantly less. To be fair, you can buy two levels in Almaria if you really want to wait that long, and there is also the +3 from equipment which is timely enough. But even with those bonuses, you'll have to invest skill points to get up to 15 or 16.

3) Even if you want to put points in Tool Use manually, do the math -- it's NOT a savings compared with the other traits. It costs 42 skill points to buy 12 points of Tool Use (40 if you wait till after Almaria). The trait will give you 9 levels (if you don't mind waiting till the end of the game to have use of all of them), so that's a savings of 38-40 skill points.

That's the equivalent of about 7 levels of Priest Spells, or 6 of Mage Spells. Pure Spirit and Natural Mage increase those stats at the same rate as Nimble Fingers increases Tool Use. However, if you plan on using much magic, you are obviously going to want to buy more than 6 or 7 levels. Since trait skill bonuses don't increase the cost to buy skill levels, the skill points you save should essentially be calculated starting with the first level you don't buy. i.e., if I buy 6 levels of Priest Spells and get a bonus 4 levels, the bonus 4 levels are not worth (4 + 4 + 5 + 5 = 18) but (7 + 7 + 8 + 8 = 30).

So basically, at ANY point in the game, unless you forego magic entirely, you are ALWAYS better off buying Tool Use manually and selecting a different trait. In the mid and late game, the magic traits outshine Nimble Fingers by truly ridiculous proportions.

(Admittedly, I'd rather have the First Aid bonus than the Magical Efficiency, but even if you value M.E. at zero (which is unfair) First Aid is a cheap skill and the bonus to it is small (1 + 1 every 10 levels).

Elite Warrior is also a better deal. Parry costs 3 to start with, I don't remember what Blademaster is -- I think 4, but it's effectively a lot higher since you have to waste a bunch of points in the hand-to-hand weapon skill you're not using in order to access it.

Update: Perhaps I should have named this thread "bum luck." Luck does not seem to increase resistance to any kind of magical attack, either. Sheesh!

All the other stats and protective spells function about as expected against magical attacks. Resistance is very effective. Prismatic shield seems to vary randomly against each individual attack; I got results ranging pretty much from 0% ro 50%. Steel Skin and Protection were both a solid 25%. This was with a combined spell stat of 30.

Update: Perhaps I should have named this thread "bum luck." Luck does not seem to increase resistance to any kind of magical attack, either. Sheesh!

All the other stats and protective spells function about as expected against magical attacks. Resistance is very effective. Prismatic shield seems to vary randomly against each individual attack; I got results ranging pretty much from 0% ro 50%. Steel Skin and Protection were both a solid 25%. This was with a combined spell stat of 30.

And amen to that. "Dynamic persistent worlds" my butt.

So I ran some testing with a fresh character. OK, not quite fresh; I maxxed out his experience at 60,000, for level 61. I doubt that would have any effect on this, but it's worth taking into account. These tests involved the guards in Ft Monastery attacking me. (Edit: he was naked, of course.)

Average damage, rounded (% reduction) -- stats improved

35 (00%) -- none

29 (17%) -- 10 Hardiness

23 (34%) -- 30 Hardiness

36 (-3%) -- 10 Luck

35 (00%) -- 30 Luck

28 (20%) -- 10 Hardiness, 10 Resistance

29 (16%) -- 10 Hardiness, 30 Resistance

7 (80%) -- 10 Parry

5 (86%) -- 30 Parry

Conclusions:

• Luck and Resistance don't reduce physical damage at all. This is very strange for Luck, since Luck increases your Armor rating!

• Hardiness probably acts as 2% armor per point, with the regular 10- and 20- skill effect ceilings.

• Parry is truly gross.

Parry also did some *really* weird things with dodge rate. Parry rate maxxes out at 50% (at 9 points, I believe) and this was the highest parry rate I ever observed, or saw displayed. The guards had a displayed hit rate of 67%. However, with 10 Parry, they hit me only four times out of the first ~40 attacks. With 30 Parry, they hit me only twice out of the first ~40 attacks. (Yes, I am taking into account the Dex and Defense I had to buy to access Parry.)

I also ended up observing some magic attack damage thanks to a sometimes nosy Lark. I didn't see this for the Hardiness or Resistance tests, unfortunately. But Parry *does* reduce magic attack damage (at least for single target spells). 10 Parry reduced damage by ~10%, and 30 reduced it by ~22%. Not a huge reduction, but it's something.

The actual parry rate against targetted magical attacks appears to be 1% per effective point of Parry, maxxing out therefore at 18% with 29 or 30 Parry.

So I ran some testing with a fresh character. OK, not quite fresh; I maxxed out his experience at 60,000, for level 61. I doubt that would have any effect on this, but it's worth taking into account. These tests involved the guards in Ft Monastery attacking me. (Edit: he was naked, of course.)

Average damage, rounded (% reduction) -- stats improved

35 (00%) -- none

29 (17%) -- 10 Hardiness

23 (34%) -- 30 Hardiness

36 (-3%) -- 10 Luck

35 (00%) -- 30 Luck

28 (20%) -- 10 Hardiness, 10 Resistance

29 (16%) -- 10 Hardiness, 30 Resistance

7 (80%) -- 10 Parry

5 (86%) -- 30 Parry

Conclusions:

• Luck and Resistance don't reduce physical damage at all. This is very strange for Luck, since Luck increases your Armor rating!

• Hardiness probably acts as 2% armor per point, with the regular 10- and 20- skill effect ceilings.

• Parry is truly gross.

Parry also did some *really* weird things with dodge rate. Parry rate maxxes out at 50% (at 9 points, I believe) and this was the highest parry rate I ever observed, or saw displayed. The guards had a displayed hit rate of 67%. However, with 10 Parry, they hit me only four times out of the first ~40 attacks. With 30 Parry, they hit me only twice out of the first ~40 attacks. (Yes, I am taking into account the Dex and Defense I had to buy to access Parry.)

I also ended up observing some magic attack damage thanks to a sometimes nosy Lark. I didn't see this for the Hardiness or Resistance tests, unfortunately. But Parry *does* reduce magic attack damage (at least for single target spells). 10 Parry reduced damage by ~10%, and 30 reduced it by ~22%. Not a huge reduction, but it's something.

The actual parry rate against targetted magical attacks appears to be 1% per effective point of Parry, maxxing out therefore at 18% with 29 or 30 Parry.

The scripts agree with Thuryl. Until you get the special bows, even a Javelin has a bigger multiplier than a Longbow. You will certainly see a difference with Razordisks, as they have a 1-5 multiplier, compared to 1-2 or 1-3 for all bows save the Heartstriker.

Alo, some queer parry test results coming in a new thread.

Dodging is definitely harder on Torment, since the enemies are higher level. At the moment, my singleton is still at 1% when I switch to Torment; I doubt that will be true at the end of the game, though.

However, with a party of four, you could definitely accomplish it for one or two characters. You just have a front-liner pump all the dodge stats, while a dedicated priest pumps his magic stats. Shield the front-liner and voila.

Hmm. Parry didn't reduce damage consistently when I tested... perhaps I should try some more.

Does it also reduce missile damage?

And more relevantly, does it reduce magic damage? If it does, then perhaps we really have been underrating it...

Some clarifications on Thuryl's post. First of all, Gymnastics does exactly the same thing as Dexterity (except it doesn't boost missile attacks as well). Defense and Luck also add to this dodge stat, as do the Enduring Shield/Armor spells. At Normal difficulty, you pretty much have to pump all of these stats to become "almost immune" to physical attacks.

Parry protects against melee attacks at 5% plus 5% per point of Parry up to 10 points. After that it's 5% every 2 points, and after 20 it's 5% every 3 points. So this is good protection, but you won't get the kind of 99% immunity that a good dodge stat will provide, not even late game. Also, Parry provides very poor protection against missile attacks (this includes bows and thrown weapons as well as most magic attacks). Neither Parry nor dodging protects against area of effect spells.

Right, I was getting my crappy legal-police dramas mixed up. I suppose CSI: Avernum would be more like Avernum 3. All that evidence to analyze... and you certainly collect enough assorted monster limbs.

Right, I was getting my crappy legal-police dramas mixed up. I suppose CSI: Avernum would be more like Avernum 3. All that evidence to analyze... and you certainly collect enough assorted monster limbs.

"If you talk to him enough times, he eventually attacks you of his own accord, in which case you can at least claim self-defence."

What is this, CSI: Avernum? "Let's psychologically manipulate the culprit until he goes crazy and takes a swing at us. That's totally ethical."

"If you talk to him enough times, he eventually attacks you of his own accord, in which case you can at least claim self-defence."

What is this, CSI: Avernum? "Let's psychologically manipulate the culprit until he goes crazy and takes a swing at us. That's totally ethical."

"*what is with barely being able to move during fight mode?"

Huh? In previous games, you could move four squares or move three and attack. In Avernum 4, you can move eight squares or move three and attack. How is that less mobility?

I guess there is the 'slowing' effect, but that's only significantly worse than the free attack your enemies got in previous games if you are significantly stronger than your enemies, in which case, who care.s

Ooh. Nice catch Thuryl.

The third one is the castle you're trying to get into. It sounds like you've already dealt with Hanvar (the old fort west of Draco) and Kelda (just north of Hanvar). I believe the Iron key, which opens the castle, is in Kelda's lair somewhere, in a pot or a box.

You're sure you didn't neglect buying a level for your mage? You can indeed always buy 2 levels. If no one has ever been unconscious, there's no other way to end up with different levels on different PCs.

Suitably vague hint: There are at least three bandit leaders in that part of the Eastern Gallery. It may be easier to deal with them in a certain order.

Alternately, you can use Unlock Doors to get a big boost to your Tool Use, if you made your thief a mage.

Just think of the topic as a Doomguard...

To be fair, Efram (with the fake Demonslayer) has had parties of adventurers waving the real blade in his face since the beginning of the series.

Update: Well, I discovered one roadblock (Nociduas) and the one element of the game which pumping dodge a lot doesn't make very easy: area effect spells! You can't dodge 'em at all. This may become frustrating later in the game. It is making me glad that I cut off Dex and Defense at 8 and 6 respectively, as the priest points give me more power for Steel Skin. I *am* starting to wish (pre-emptively) that I could access Prismatic Shield. Hmm. If I'm going to get Dispel Barrier *anyway*... oh geez.

Vlish, I don't know what the Tower Colony encounter is that you were so worried about, as I've finished that area and nothing was any trouble. The nasty upstairs was annoying, but not too hard to take down.

Update: Well, I discovered one roadblock (Nociduas) and the one element of the game which pumping dodge a lot doesn't make very easy: area effect spells! You can't dodge 'em at all. This may become frustrating later in the game. It is making me glad that I cut off Dex and Defense at 8 and 6 respectively, as the priest points give me more power for Steel Skin. I *am* starting to wish (pre-emptively) that I could access Prismatic Shield. Hmm. If I'm going to get Dispel Barrier *anyway*... oh geez.

Vlish, I don't know what the Tower Colony encounter is that you were so worried about, as I've finished that area and nothing was any trouble. The nasty upstairs was annoying, but not too hard to take down.