Cynara

So I slept on my 'final' party concept, and decided that the paladin archetype just wouldn't cut it, not for a party who could swing either way on the good/evil game ending. My *actual* final party, the one I just finished the demo areas with, consists of the following (summaries here, detailed stats attached at bottom): ---------- Two Warriors (pure fighters), conceptually these are two twins who have always trained and fought together. Identical starting stats and identical level-up stats, with the exception that one's trained in melee weapons and the other in pole weapons. Lots of teamwork between these two, for example in boss fights the melee does a shield-breaker while the other follows up with a well-aimed blow. They're always completing each other's sentences too... One archetype I call the Preacher, a thief/mage who 'saw the light' and became a priest, joining the Empire army to do good and spread the word. This is the character who generally pulls the party towards the 'good' ending, but could be persuaded to join the Loyalists due to an anti-authority streak left over from his thieving days. (I originally resisted the idea of a thief with no points in Dexterity, but figured that some mage ability, not to mention innate, streetwise Intelligence, could more than make up for it.) One Hedge Wizard, focused mostly on mage spells but also has some access to priest. Comes from a formerly powerful noble family who were disenfranchised when the Empress came to power, just weeks after her birth. Magically gifted, headstrong, did what she had to for the survival of her family. Was raised endlessly hearing about the lost glory days of the Empire, so she pulls the party towards the 'evil' ending, though if she's perfectly honest with herself she doesn't really like her family all that much. ---------- Here's the way the few moral choices I've seen so far have gone: Per the quartermaster's strict instructions, they drove Dirty Dan off without killing him. His siblings, however, were less fortunate, since they'd holed up in areas where casual witnesses were far less likely, and they were robbing from the Empire after all... They trounced the mad wizard but let him go, since the mayor who'd sent them to take him down hadn't exactly endeared herself to anyone in the party, even before her stunt with the transit papers. Oh, and they let him know who sent them, to make sure he causes more problems for her. They'd originally made a deal with the giant commanding the goblins, but in somewhat petty revenge against that same mayor they went back and took him down. Now the goblins will eventually overbreed themselves into a problem for her again. Surprisingly, everyone, even the Hedge Wizard, agreed to tell Alice first about the Rat Lord's vacancy. Wulf, though from the Empire, was obviously a drunken whiner, while Alice had just as obviously made something of herself. This spoke to everyone in the party. (Please, no spoilers for upcoming choices. I'll post my party's reactions to them as they come along.) ---------- Regarding numbers, I made a small mistake: I knew that race, trait and equipment bonuses did not count towards unlocking skills. What I didn't know is that training *does* count (at least, according to a random forum post I read). So as long as I'm willing to wait a little bit for training, I can squeeze in a few more skills. With Warrior weapon skills, got enough to unlock Blademaster (with some training help) and a couple points in ranged skills (boosted by Deadeye for occasional utility) to bring Battle Discipline points up to 16 cheaply. Hoping to find equipment that'll boost that to 20, otherwise will need to spend another point or two. Preacher's Priest Spells and Hedge Wizard's Mage Spells are left at 8 for now. Traits will eventually boost them by 6, and hoping to find equipment that boosts 3 more to hit 17 for access to the highest spells. So I may need to invest more if I don't find such equipment. Similarly, Preacher's Tool Use is left at 9. Nimble Fingers will boost by 6, and somewhere there's equipment that'll boost it by 3 more, according to Harehunter. One quick question, though I suppose it'll be answered soon once I visit my first trainer: how is skill point cost calculated for trained skills? In the numbers below I've assumed that you can train three times *instead* of using points, meaning that, if you can, you want to invest one starting point in the trained skill first if you plan on adding more later. Updated numbers follow, feedback is always welcome! ========== basic package (50) Endurance (8): 10+12+14=36 Arcane Lore (3): 2+2=4 First Aid (4): 2+4=6 Nature Lore (3): 2+2=4 ========== two Warriors, Pure Fighter (208 points spent) greater trait: Elite Warrior (15% penalty) lesser trait: Deadeye (10% penalty) basic package: 50 Strength (8): 12+14+16=42 Dexterity (6): 12+14=26 primary weapon (6): 8+10+12=30 secondary weapon (6): 4+(trainingx3)+12=16 Bows (4): 4+6=10 Thrown (4): 4+6=10 Defense (6): 4+6+8=18 Hardiness (4): 2+4=6 [already invested at start before seeing Brocktree's post arguing against it, oops!] Blademaster: (?) [trainingx3] Parry: (?) [trainingx3] maybe Quick Action? maybe Quick Strike? [trainingx3] Dexterity (8)? more Defense? ========== Preacher, Priest(/Spellthief) (197 points spent) greater trait: Pure Spirit (15% penalty) lesser trait: Nimble Fingers (8% penalty) basic package: 50 Intelligence (8): 12+14+16=42 Priest Spells (8): 8+10+12+14=44 Mage Spells (6): 10+12+14=36 Tool Use (9): 2+4+6+8+5=25 Spellcraft: (?) [trainingx3] Magery: (?) [trainingx3] Hardiness? Defense? more Mage Spells? weapon skills for battle disciplines? [may just train these] ========== Hedge Wizard, Mage(/Priest) (174 points spent) greater trait: Natural Mage (15% penalty) lesser trait: Strong Will (10% penalty) basic package: 50 Intelligence (8): 12+14+16=42 Mage Spells (8): 10+12+14+16=52 Priest Spells (6): 8+10+12=30 Spellcraft: (?) [trainingx3] Magery: (?) [trainingx3] Hardiness? Defense? more Priest Spells? weapon skills for battle disciplines? [may just train these]

Grr, real life got in the way of my maths time! Okay, so I've come up with a new Archer-less party that I think'd be fun to play: Warrior, a pure fighter Paladin, a fighter with access to some priest spells Shaman, a priest with access to some mage spells Spellthief, a mage who also trains in Tool Use Stats follow with basic points spent plus some wiggle room depending on the equipment I find. Couple quick notes: As before I'm assuming 250 points earned through leveling. Harehunter mentioned that you can find equipment that will boost Tool Use by up to 3 ranks, so I've bumped down required point buy from 12 to 9 ranks. If I somehow miss this equipment during play though, I'll have to buy the points back. There will probably be equipment around that boosts mage and priest spells, in which case I'll thankfully need to buy fewer ranks to reach 17, but the posted math assumes otherwise for now. Oh yes, small mistake with the previous math: rank of 17 is needed to access the highest spells, not 18. Adjusted stats accordingly. Character I'm most concerned about is the Paladin. Wanted him to feel different than the Warrior, so since he needs Intelligence anyway for spells he unlocked Anatomy rather than Blademaster (it boosts First Aid too, appropriate for a Paladin!). But he may be too generalized to be effective as built. Thoughts? Looked into building a Fighter(/Mage) 'Spellblade', love that concept, but the armor penalty for mage spells kinda nixes it! Hoping to finally get this started during the long holiday weekend. Going to celebrate our nation's birth by killing virtual creatures and taking their stuff! Maths ahead: ========== basic package (54) Endurance (8): 10+12+14=36 Arcane Lore (4): 2+4=6 First Aid (4): 2+4=6 Nature Lore (4): 2+4=6 ========== Warrior, Pure Fighter (200 points spent) greater trait: Elite Warrior (15% penalty) lesser trait: ??? basic package: 54 Strength (8): 12+14+16=42 Dexterity (6): 12+14=26 Melee Weapons (6): 8+10+12=30 Pole Weapons (6): 8+10+12=30 Defense (6): 4+6+8=18 Hardiness: (?) Blademaster: (?) Parry: (?) weapon skills for battle disciplines maybe Quick Action (?) maybe Quick Strike (?) ========== Paladin, Fighter(/Priest) (196 points spent) greater trait: Elite Warrior (15% penalty) lesser trait: ??? basic package: 54 Strength (8): 12+14+16=42 Dexterity (6): 12+14=26 Intelligence (4): 12 Melee OR Pole Weapons (8): 8+10+12+14=44 Defense (6): 4+6+8=18 Priest Spells: (?) Spellcraft: (?) Hardiness: (?) Anatomy: (?) Parry: (?) maybe more Intelligence? (probably) maybe Quick Action? maybe Quick Strike? weapon skills for battle disciplines? ========== Shaman, Priest(/Mage) (165 points spent) greater trait: Pure Spirit (15% penalty) lesser trait: ??? basic package: 54 Intelligence (8): 12+14+16=42 Priest Spells (11): 8+10+12+14+16+9=69 Mage Spells: (?) Spellcraft: (?) Magery: (?) Strength Hardiness? Defense? weapon skills for battle disciplines? ========== Spellthief, Mage(/Rogue) (201 points spent) greater trait: Natural Mage (15% penalty) lesser trait: Nimble Fingers (8%) basic package: 54 Intelligence (8): 12+14+16=42 Mage Spells (11): 10+12+14+16+18+10=80 Tool Use (9): 2+4+6+8+5=25 Spellcraft: (?) Magery: (?) Hardiness? Defense? weapon skills for battle disciplines? maybe unlock Magical Efficiency?

Originally Posted By: Randomizer You don't need all the levels in both spell groups. Originally Posted By: Harehunter Training in both disciplines will add to your spell point total as well as any of the other special skills such as magery and spellcraft. I'll definitely consider this later in my party's career. I tend to like characters who can do more than one thing. Originally Posted By: Harehunter Having a mage/priest use melee when feasible conserves spell points for those times you really need them. I'm considering a few points in Bows/Thrown for spellpoint conservation, depending on how much a factor it is. Melee... not so much. Maybe for a few Battle Disciplines later on. Originally Posted By: Harehunter I am also fond of adding a few levels of priest skill to my fighters. Not sure about this, without precious points in Intelligence, Spellcraft and Magery the spells will be awful weak. Maybe I'll train them a bit later if I'm flush with cash... Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES Give your casters weapons with defensive bonuses. And maybe buy a few points in melee IF it helps with battle disciplines in a critical way. Pretty much this. Where I spend/buy some points will be based on the kind of equipment I come across. Originally Posted By: Ellhralorael Blademaster applies equally to swords and polearms. You don't actually want to waste points by splitting them between the two weapon types. Errr, a guide I read says Blademaster requires 6 ranks each of Strength, Melee and Pole. Is this not correct? Originally Posted By: Ellhralorael archery isn't strong enough to make a useful character. Buy points for everyone so they can use bows in a pinch if you want, but you want to focus on melee or spells for real damage. Aw nuts, really? That kinda messes me up. Not sure how to fit in Tool Use with a melee or a spellcaster, they're so points-hungry! An archer seemed the perfect fit with their less expensive skills. *sigh* Back to some number crunching. Stupid locks. Stupid traps. *grumble grumble mutter*

Thanks again for your thoughts! Originally Posted By: Brocktree The battle disciplines which stun/curse/weaken/boost damage all apply to spells. This... sounds like a bug. If it's not though, I'll consider adding some weapon skills in later levels. Originally Posted By: Brocktree If you only choose Elite Warrior, then yes, unlock Blademaster. Having a high Blademaster is one of the few benefits of a warrior, as it allows you to utilise battle disciplines more often. Okay, I'll do this. I actually like the idea of a warrior who can switch weapons at need - pole for more damage, sword/shield for straight-out tankage. Originally Posted By: Brocktree Anatomy is quite expensive, and does not to seem to add a full level of damage when you invest a point in it. *sigh* Okay, dumb warrior it is then (and another reason to look forward to Avernum 6!). Originally Posted By: Brocktree Both are worth investing in for warriors, but don't expect miracles from QA. At 10 points, you will be getting a double attack 25% of the time. To reliably get 2 AP from QS, you will need to invest at least 10 points, and then get a remaining 8-10 from equipment/training. I'll consider investing in these skills later on then, maybe see what has the best synergy with the equipment I find. Originally Posted By: Brocktree The only problem with mage/priests is that their skill points will be stretched very thin. Played around with this and you're right: Basic package of Endurance (6), Arcane Lore (4), First Aid (4), and Nature Lore (4): 40 Intelligence (8): 12+14+16=42 Mage Spells (12): 10+12+14+16+18+20=90 Priest Spells (12): 8+10+12+14+16+18=78 Total: 250, and that's without any points in Spellcraft, Magery, weapons or defensive skills. Don't think this'll work. Oh well, it fits the concept better to specialize. A shmoe is unlikely to be both a Natural Mage *and* be Pure of Spirit! Originally Posted By: Erasmus If you know programming Oops, I don't, but thanks for the advice! Originally Posted By: Erasmus Forget about LethalBlow and Anatomy their effect is a lot weaker than is described, they basically give you (not precisely) a double damage critical hit, not an out right kill. That seems to be the consensus, yeah. Might consider training them, but won't try to unlock them. Originally Posted By: Erasmus There really isn't a problem with having non-humans in a loyalist party, they have reformed. Think I'll wait until Avernum 6 to bring in non-humans, where you're back to playing Exile - oops, Avernum! - natives. Originally Posted By: Erasmus I also see you didn't take any tool use That's going to go on my archer, whose stats I didn't post since it's a less problematic build. ========== Okay, so here's how my party currently stands, getting close I think. Particularly curious about Hardiness and Defense, should these be part of each character's basic package? (beware, maths follow!) ---------- Fighter (210 points spent) 1st Trait: Elite Warrior (15% penalty) 2nd Trait: ??? (thinking Fast on Feet, to get into the fray faster. Maybe Good Constitution, or none) basic package: 40 Strength (8): 12+14+16=42 Dexterity (6): 12+14=26 Endurance (basic 6 +2): 14 Melee Weapons (6): 8+10+12=30 Pole Weapons (6): 8+10+12=30 Defense (8): 4+6+8+10=28 Hardiness (?) Quick Action (?) Blademaster (?) [definitely some here] Parry (?) [definitely some here] Quick Strike (?) ---------- Archer (212 points spent) 1st Trait: Deadeye (10% penalty) 2nd Trait: Nimble Fingers (8% penalty) basic package: 40 Strength (6): 12+14+16=42 Dexterity (8): 12+14+16+18=60 Bows (8): 4+6+8+10=28 Tool Use (12): 2+4+6+8+10+12=42 Hardiness (?) Defense (?) Sharpshooter (?) [definitely some here] Gymnastics (?) [probably some here] ---------- Priest (160 points spent) 1st Trait: Pure Spirit (15% penalty) 2nd Trait: Strong Will (10% penalty) basic package: 40 Intelligence (8): 12+14+16=42 Priest Spells (12): 8+10+12+14+16+18=78 Strength (?) [for armor] Hardiness (?) Defense (?) Spellcraft (?) [definitely some here] Magery (?) [definitely some here] Weapons Skills? ---------- Mage (172 points spent) 1st Trait: Natural Mage (15% penalty) 2nd Trait: ??? basic package: 40 Intelligence (8): 12+14+16=42 Mage Spells (12): 10+12+14+16+18+20=90 Hardiness (?) Defense (?) Spellcraft (?) [definitely some here] Magery (?) [definitely some here] Weapons Skills?

Thanks for the feedback! Originally Posted By: Randomizer Lethal blow and riposte come so late in the game that they aren't worth unlocking. You are better off just using the skill points elsewhere. Originally Posted By: Brocktree Oh god, don't bother with Lethal Blow, you'll blow all your skill points to unlock the skill, and have no points left to invest in it. I wouldn't worry about Riposte either, it's good, but not worth bending over backwards to get. It's just a sad fact of Avernum 5 that you need to blow all of your skill points on barely relevant base skills to unlock the marginally useful upper tier skills, only to realise that you have no skill points left to invest in them. This was fixed in Avernum 6. Hm, okay, kinda figured they were there to be unlocked (sort of a skill tree hidden within the point system), but guess I should look beyond (and look forward to Avernum 6!). Originally Posted By: Brocktree Due to the multiplicative nature of Avernum's armour system, luck is one of those skills that you shouldn't place any points in unless you are prepared to invest in it heavily. M'kay, no luck then. Might make more sense for the shmoes actually! Originally Posted By: Randomizer One thing you can do is hold off on using skill points for arcane lore, nature lore, and spellcraft. Originally Posted By: Brocktree No! Don't hold off on arcane lore and nature lore. I'll hold off on Spellcraft, but the others are so cheap I don't mind getting them, and I'd hate coming across something I can't access without them. I might not remember to go back! Originally Posted By: Brocktree By the way, some players advocate waiting to purchase weapon training for your spell-casters. Maybe I'm missing something, but why would I want to buy weapon skills for my spellcasters? Apart from a few in bows/thrown perhaps. And a few other questions... Blademaster requires putting points in two different melee weapons skills, which seems a bit wasteful if a fighter just sticks to one. Is it really worth the investment, or is Elite Warrior enough? Anatomy sounds more useful for a melee weapon specialist, even with the two mostly unuseful increases to Intelligence (but not all fighters need to be big dumb stupidheads, right?). A little confused about the effects of Quick Action vs. Quick Strike, Bows/Thrown vs. Sharpshooter, and Magery vs. Spellcraft. Are these effectively equivalent skills, and is QA/QS worth investing in? Part of me still wants to have two mage/priests, maybe I can fudge something up by dropping Magical Efficiency... Originally Posted By: Randomizer Welcome to Spiderweb Software. Please leave your sanity at the door. That way all the contradictory advice will make sense. What is this 'sanity' thing of which you speak?

Hi all! New to these boards I've played a handful of Spiderweb games over the years. Finished Exile 3, the Celt side of the original Nethergate (more of a mage player than Roman soldier melee!), and most of the way through the first Geneforge (got stuck at The Great Temple as a petless Agent - yeah, kinda my own fault for going petless!). A couple years ago I played and enjoyed the demo for Avernum 5, bought the game, and then promptly lost my life to MMOs... So now I'm revisiting older games I paid for but never finished, and am trying to plan my party's build as best I can without too many spoilers. Probably won't run through the game more than once, won't have time, so I want to make this runthrough count. And of course, fun! Going to play through on normal, I'm an RPG vet but I figure the tougher difficulties are intended to challenge players more familiar with the game. Also going in with an all-human party, for role playing reasons - I want to leave open the choice of allying with the bad guys, see which story I find more fun (maybe save and play through both at a deciding point). And since they have issues with non-human races... While trying to plan my party though, I kind of hit a wall on the numbers... According to a guide I read, if you take no experience-slowing traits or races, a character in a four-party team will reach about level 40 by the end of the game. Assuming this is accurate, that would be 39*5=195 skill points, plus 80 starting points equals 275. I do plan to take some traits, so let's say my max level is 35, for a total of 250 skill points. (Note that I don't plan to take Divinely Touched. It seems more appropriate for singletons, and it would seem too 'powergamey' to give it to an entire party. These guys are, after all, intended to be a handful of Empire schmoes who stumble into a greater adventure...) Okay, now assume all characters build Endurance to at least 6, get Arcane Lore 4, Nature Lore 4, First Aid 4, and Luck 1 (cause they gotta have *some* luck!). That's 44 points. I figured I could build up to either Riposte or to Lethal Blow on my fighters, but the numbers on either are... kinda crazy! Unlocking access to Riposte requires 206 points. With the 44 basic points spent, that's already 250! And that's without even adding points *into* Riposte! Lethal Blow is even crazier, requiring 212 points just to unlock. For spellcasters, unlocking Magical Efficiency requires 130 points for priests and 136 for mages. Assuming I take the Pure Spirit/Natural Mage trait, getting spells to lvl 18 requires another 48/54 points. Plus the basic 44, that's 222 for my priest and 234 for my mage, and that doesn't include any points in Magical Efficiency or Spellcraft! (My original idea was actually to have two priest/mages with both traits, but pointswise that's wownotfeasible! And yes, kinda powergamey, even if they are twin siblings of magically-apt parents...) None of these builds even have room for things like Quick Action, (more) Luck, Hardiness, Quick Strike (even though it's unlocked on the way to Riposte), Gymnastics or Resistance. I have the feeling my numbers are way off. Is there something I'm not taking into account? Any advice is welcome, but please no major story spoilers! Maths follow: ============= All characters (44) Endurance (6): 10+12=22 Arcane Lore (4): 2+4=6 First Aid (4): 2+4=6 Nature Lore (4): 2+4=6 Luck (1): 4 ------------- unlocking Riposte (206) Strength (6): 12+14=26 Dexterity (6): 12+14=26 Melee Weapons (6): 8+10+12=32 Pole Weapons (6): 8+10+12=32 Blademaster (6): 10+12+14=36 Defense (6): 4+6+8=18 Parry (8): 6+8+10+12=36 ------------- unlocking Lethal Blow (212) Strength (6): 12+14=26 Intelligence (4): 12 primary weapon (8): 8+10+12+14=46 secondary weapon (6): 8+10+12=32 Anatomy (8): 8+10+12+14=44 Blademaster (8): 10+12+14+16=52 ------------- unlocking Magical Efficiency (130 OR 136) Intelligence (8): 12+14+16=42 Endurance (basic-6 +2): 14 EITHER Mage Spells (6): 10+12+14=36 OR Priest Spells (6): 8+10+12=30 Magery (8): 8+10+12+14=44 ------------- Spellcasting 18 (48 OR 54) Pure Spirit/Natural Mage adds 6 points by lvl 35 6 points needed for Magical Efficiency (above), 6 more needed Mage Spells: 16+18+20=54 Priest Spells: 14+16+18=48