GF4 Musings

[Kelandon]

Continuing my... what... GF-blog or something... from GF1-3, I started in on GF4 today. I've made a point of avoiding reading about GF4 to avoid spoilers, so it's probably best to avoid discussing later parts of the plot in replies here.

 

I realized after I finished GF3 that I was really playing the wrong class. It would make much more sense to be a balanced Guardian to do what I was doing than to be a deadweight Shaper. I was making creations, but I wasn't relying on high levels of Shaper skills to make powerful creations — I was relying on huge amounts of Essence. Since Intelligence isn't a Shaper skill — Guardians can get it just as easily — I may as well just boost the shaping skills as high as they need to be to make top-tier creations, boost magic skills as high as they need to be to cast some basic buffs, boost combat skills a little more in order to be able to aid my creations in a fight, and put the majority of points into the basic physical skills (mostly Intelligence, with some Strength and Endurance too).

 

In other words, I'm going to be playing a creation-heavy Guardian ("Warrior," in GF4), which is something I haven't tried yet but makes a lot more sense than anything else that I've done. And yeah, I'm playing on Torment again, as I did in GF3.

 

I'm going no-canister and probably joining the loyalists (though it's a little early to tell). My responses are going to be pretty neutral for a while until I can feel out how the two sides are.

 

My first impression — from the first four or five zones — is that this game is pretty well-done. I liked the intro (dashing through a war zone) but thought that using the Geneforge was a little anti-climactic. I did gain a handful of skills, but, well, the Geneforge is supposed to turn you into an uber-weapon.

 

All GF games thus far have had the problem that the first few levels come far too quickly and the highest levels come far too slowly. GF4 seems to be no exception: I jumped from level 1 to 6 within an hour of play-time, but I'm betting that going from level 30 to level 35 is going to take many, many hours).

[John S]

Originally Posted By: Kelandon

I may as well just boost the shaping skills as high as they need to be to make top-tier creations

I made it through on Torment as a Shaper (although using canisters and taking rewards from both sides) to the middle of the second map before I trained in Shaping skills. You may find that you don't need to train at all as a Guardian.

[Khoth]

Shapers do get more essence than guardians, although I can't remember how much more.

[Randomizer]

The first 10 or so zones don't require creating creations. You can really hold off until you start getting items with shaping bonues if you want. Also Jeff made it so you don't need as many levels in shaping skills to make the basic creations. It's only those charged and corrupted creations that really need the extra levels.

[Mea Tulpa]

Khoth is right that Shapers get more essence. And in G4, Agents (er... Infiltrators) also get more essence than Guardians (Warriors). (For essence, Lifecrafters get 100%, Infs 87.5% and Warriors 75%, in G4) Additionally, Warriors start with 2 Int while Lifecrafters start with 4. So there is a real difference in essence availability.

 

The better option is to play an Infiltrator and pump magic. Your direct damage spells won't be amazing, but they'll be better than your Guardian's physical attack would be.

[Kelandon]

Eh, this is probably why it's been hard in the first few zones, but I've made it to Dillame, so it's too late to start over.

 

I have my usual pack of fyoras, who are doing the bulk of the fighting for me. My character can actually jump in and contribute here and there, which is nice, but that lack of essence is going to kill me late in the game. I'll have to compensate with legitimate combat skills, I suppose.

 

One thing that I have been doing is just letting creations die when needed. I'm betting that the few levels that they lose when I have to re-create them is worth it in terms of time saved re-loading when they die, and thus far, it looks as though I'm right.

 

I have totally given up on Mechanics, though not on Leadership. I've used Leadership to avoid killing a few things here and there, since I haven't decided whether I'm going to try to be more or less peaceable or I'm going to rain down righteous loyalist fire and brimstone.

[Lilith]

You should probably stop letting creations die once you get Wingbolts, since you can get them halfway through and keep using them until the end of the game. The difference between a Wingbolt that you just made and a Wingbolt that's gained 10 levels or so is pretty striking, since HP and energy effectively increase in proportion to the square of a creation's level.

[Student of Trinity]

Amen. Wingbolts are light gazers, at half price. They're quite vulnerable to cold, so you may have to stay friendly with the couple of packs of cryodrayks in the game, but otherwise you're good.

[Mea Tulpa]

Fyoras suck, incidentally. I'd ditch them for either cryoas or artila when you get the chance.

[Kelandon]

Have fyoras been nerfed as compared to previous games or something? I have been noticing that they suck, and I never had that problem in previous GFs. My pack of six or seven fyoras was usually good until the middle of the game in GF1-3. And heck, I beat GF1 the first time basically with just two fyoras and nothing else (except a drayk at the very end).

[mann]

i agree fyoras do suck

in GF4 i ditched it and made a cyroa straight away

[Randomizer]

Fyoras start becoming useless just after Dillame and you definitely want to replace them. Too many swarms and they just don't have the health or damage to keep going.

[Mea Tulpa]

In G1, Fyoras were fine, because all the creations were pretty much identical if you raised their levels / pumped your own stats. G2 I don't remember, but G3 they definitely sucked in because the rebalancing of attack damage had left them doing much less per level of damage than other low tier creations, despite having a worse damage type to begin with. G4 exaccerbates this as the revamped creation XP gain rules make low tier creations worse in general.

[Delicious Vlish]

Vlish still ROOL AWL!

 

Well, they do.

[Kelandon]

So I tried to replace my pack of six or seven fyoras with one cryoa and two artilas, and I promptly got stomped. Apparently I need to suffer along with my pack for a bit longer, until I get enough Essence to start replacing, one-by-one.

 

My swarms of disposable fyoras are stronger than I expected, though, now that they really are all at the level that I create them at, so it doesn't matter if they die.

[Kelandon]

I cleared a few new areas today. I'm finding that the fyoras are individually extremely weak, but when I spell them up and have them act in concert, they are capable of great things (or at least of backing up my Guardian -- uh... Warrior -- acceptably). I'm still looking to replace them basically ASAP, but it looks as though it won't be possible for a while yet.

 

I'm starting to see more and more that this isn't the ideal character build that I was hoping for (lack of Essence kills me), but it's not the disaster that I thought it might be, either.

[Randomizer]

I piled on every intelligence bonus item and that builds up quite a nice essence pool. Have you gone back for the girdle of genius in Southforge Citadel upper level? There's the gruesome charm in the barrier region at the end of chapter 2 and I forget the other item. My lifecrafter topped out with items at intelligence 24 but you don't need that much.

[Kelandon]

Dude, I need as much Essence as I can get. Always. Girdle of Genius in Southforge Citadel upper level? I haven't found that yet. I shall go back an investigate. I assume it's in one of the trapped boxes....

[Drayk Shade]

It is, you need a high mechanics level for it though.

[Randomizer]

Mechanics 12, but you can get the tinker's gloves in the Purity Workshop B for +2 and the infiltrator's tunic in Dillame for +1. I remember Keladon had been putting a lot into mechanics so he should be able to get it by now.

[Dikiyoba]

Don't you need 12 mechanics to get the infiltrator tunic, though? (Maybe it's just ten.)

 

Dikiyoba.

[Kelandon]

Originally Posted By: Randomizer

I remember Keladon had been putting a lot into mechanics so he should be able to get it by now.

Originally Posted By: Kelandon

I have totally given up on Mechanics

Was this a mistake to do, then? I've been wondering. In every other game, I've put enough into Leadership and Mechanics to pass areas both by combat and by diplomacy (and I'd been backtracking and doing both for XP). In this game, I've been focusing on combat.

[Randomizer]

With items you can get by on a maximum mechanics of 15 and that is only needed for one trapped box in the Fens of Aziraph. Jeff designed the game for minimum mechanics of 5.

 

I think if you have mechanics of 8 or 9 you can get the tinker's gloves and then use that for the infiltraor's tunic in Dillame. Then with mechanics of 12 you can get the girdle of genius. You don't need to raise mechanics anymore to do the game.

 

I don't remember what the maximum useful leadership is in the game.

[Lilith]

Or if you have more than 200 HP or so, you can just open it and eat the damage.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally Posted By: Randomizer

With items you can get by on a maximum mechanics of 15 and that is only needed for one trapped box in the Fens of Aziraph.

There are a few traps that are also that difficult.

Quote:

I don't remember what the maximum useful leadership is in the game.

Given that your leadership sometimes affects how others percieve your reputation, there really isn't one.

But the highest check is 12, if Dikiyoba is remembering correctly, so 8 will work for pretty much everything if you plan carefully, though there's one instance you might need nine if you're really weak in combat.

[Mea Tulpa]

Thuryl's on the right track, but you don't need 200 HP. Judicious use of different pieces of armor combined with a full set of defensive buffs should get you past most traps without lots of Mechanics OR Endurance.

[Kelandon]

Eh, I don't know. Maybe I'll crank Mechanics a bit, then. I've actually been running low on Living Tools for the first time ever in a GF game, and it may have something to do with my abysmal Mech. skill.

 

LATER: Yep, I brought Mechanics up to 8 and fetched the Tinker's Gloves from Purity B for a total Mech. of 10, and this has made my life much better. I went back and cleared those old areas that required Mechanics and gained a level or two off doing so. Apparently I was doing the wrong thing in completely neglecting the diplomatic skills.

 

The jury's still out on the creation-heavy Guardian, but I think it's working. I've begun switching my fyora pack over to a vlish pack, as I gain enough Essence to do so.

[Kelandon]

So yeah, I've been beefing up my diplomatic skills with the last few levels, and I just talked Moseh down from his ledge without having to fight him (the fight was proving more than I could handle). I did have to wander around looking for things to kill (and doors to unlock) to gain an extra couple of levels to get Leadership high enough.

 

In any case, I have four vlish and a clawbug now. I always used range-based creations in previous GFs, but for some reason I'm finding melee creations more useful than before. Maybe the change in how pylons work is making a difference.

 

My character still has an Endurance of 3, and I think that's the next skill to invest in. Or maybe Parry. Anyway, it's far too easy to kill him at present.

 

I've had to consult the walkthrough in a couple of instances to get what the heck is going on in an area or two, and I gather that one can repair Moseh but kill the other two and play a little bit of both sides. This sounds highly tempting, since I'm going to need as much power as I can get with this particular build.

[Randomizer]

Endurance is needed especially if you have the gruesome charm from Moseh's bunker (+2 intelligence but -2 endurance).

 

What bugged me was that even if I didn't attack, sometimes the enemy would still hunt out and target me as I hid behind a wall and let my creations fight.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Kelandon

I've had to consult the walkthrough in a couple of instances to get what the heck is going on in an area or two, and I gather that one can repair Moseh but kill the other two and play a little bit of both sides. This sounds highly tempting, since I'm going to need as much power as I can get with this particular build.

You can do it, but be careful: Eliza and Shaftoe are extremely tough for the point in the game at which you first reach them, maybe even harder than some of the optional bosses in "expert" areas. You might want to get started on the Fens first and come back for them.

[John S]

Originally Posted By: Kelandon

I've had to consult the walkthrough in a couple of instances to get what the heck is going on in an area or two, and I gather that one can repair Moseh but kill the other two and play a little bit of both sides. This sounds highly tempting, since I'm going to need as much power as I can get with this particular build.

To be clear: you can help Moseh, Shaftoe, and Eliza for Shaper rewards and experience. Then report to the Rebel Safehouse that you could not prevent Moseh's restoration. The Rebels will tell you to kill Eliza and Shaftoe anyway. Kill them, get more rewards and experience, and take their stuff.

[Kelandon]

Hmm. I've now made it into the second map and am trying to charge into Shaper Monarch's headquarters, guns blazing. (Well, not really. At this point, I'm just trying to contact Khyryk.) I haven't gone back to kill Eliza and Shaftoe yet. I suppose I'll do that after I deal with Monarch.

 

It's been a bit of a struggle. I've now gotten the ability to make Wingbolts, and I excitedly just made my first (to join a Battle Alpha and a couple of Vlish). I'm packing enough heat to take down the golem in, uh, the golem swamp (or whatever it was called) without too much trouble. The infinitely respawning monsters in Monarch's areas are hard (and irritating).

 

I'm still dying for more Essence. I've gotten Intelligence up to 14 (with items), but I'm still a little low for spells after I've made my creations. I figure the advantage of being a Guardian who is only half-reliant on creations will eventually come through, though, since I'll eventually have enough Essence for maybe three or four Wingbolts, and at that point I'll stop boosting Intelligence and start boosting combat skills again.

 

This may not have been a great idea for a character build, but it looks as though it's good enough to finish the game on Torment, which I'm now dedicated to proving.

[Student of Trinity]

I once did this chapter with a Lifecrafter with one Wingbolt and nothing else, because that was all I could afford at the time. Everything was hard but just doable, and I'm pretty sure it was on Normal difficulty.

 

Three or four Wingbolts may be more than you'll be able to get in the entire game, though, with this build. With that Lifecrafter, who naturally pumped Intelligence like crazy from start to finish, I finished the game with only five tier-4 creations, and that was with enough essence left to do a lot of healing and buffing, but not enough to build another high tier creation.

 

The fact is that you'll gain levels rather slowly from now on, so you're really not going to be able to count on mushrooming your army even if you do keep trying to pump up Essence. I think you'll have a tough game whatever you do, but you might be best to veer more towards combat and healing soon, because I think your Shaping will be hitting a sort of plexiglass ceiling around now.

[La paix]

I just completed a similar game. I used a Loyalist Warrior with canisters and shaping on Torment. I'm not even sure how I managed to balance everything, as I ended up having lots of combat skills, general skills (endurance, strength, etc.), mechanics, leadership, Magic Shaping, and Healing Craft. I found Healing to be quite useful with enough time put into it. Augmentation has saved me countless times, strangely enough. I didn't make any creations until I could make Wingbolts. I made one, and added another when I had enough essence. Sine I had been balancing all my skills, I didn't have enough essence for anything else. I would definitely increase your Endurance, but it may not be as necessary with all your creations.

 

While it is troublesome, it can be invaluable to have spores, rods, and pods. Without them, I surely would have died. I'm assuming that you're already collecting these, but if you're not, you might want to look into it. I used crystals and wands as well. Even though wands are annoying, the higher-level ones are very useful. While impractical, some of the crafted artifacts are worth working for. You might want to start leaning towards increasing your Mechanics, because I found it much worth it.

 

This is all the advice I can think of right now, so enjoy!