A shaper D&D character

[Lord Safey]

I have recently got interested in D&D and was wondering if anyone had made a Shaper character. Even though my experience with D&D is laughable at best, I have written up a nice amount for it. I'm sure someone is going to say I should probably learn more about the game before I go and start making up my own class and I'm sure their right, but I'm doing this anyways. Its more of an on going project anyways that will go through a lot before it gets finished.

 

So I guess my question is has anyone done this before, have any advice, thoughts, help, encouragement, death threats etc on the subject?

[Randomizer]

This topic in Geneforge Series is one on the subject and I think there was another, but I don't have time to look for it.

[Nioca]

it has been done before. Unfortunately, UBB's search feature sucks, and I don't remember much more than that.

 

EDIT: Randomizer beat me to it. And he even found the topic. Curses!

[Alorael at Large]

Someone wrote up a terribly unbalanced version of shaping that deserves to be buried by the internet. Google turns up a few discussions of Geneforge in D&D/d20, but no real mechanics.

 

—Alorael, who after running into a video suggesting Geneforge as a substitute or at least fill-in for Diablo can only say that at least Geneforge is a better fit with d20 than Diablo is.

[Lord Safey]

Well I can't say that what I'm making isn't a complete and total piece of crap but I'm trying anyways.

 

Thanks for the references.

Right now I have shaping divided up into 4 different categories: tool craft (living tools, minds etc), animal craft (animal like creatures (thads, turrets, gazers etc.), disease craft, and healing craft

 

I also go a bit creative and added a good deal to the creations list that wasn't necessarily in geneforge. Although if its in geneforge I tried to make sure its in the shaper class I'm designing. Although I am of the strong opinion that I'll end up needing to rework the system of various powers.

[Janitorial Closet]

(Everything I say is assuming you are playing AD&D 2 or DND V 3) You could just make a wizard/sorcerer focusing on Conjuration, and use the Summon Monster skills primarily. I'm going to need to go check my books to confirm it.

 

Making your own class would be quite weird, but if you get REALLY creative, you could make a Prestige Class (DND V 3/3.5 only ((I assume)) ) that gives special abilities to coincide with the Summon Monster skills.

 

 

I shall go check my DND books

 

 

EDIT: Right now I can't find my 3.0 book, but if you happen to be using AD&D 2 you can make a Shaper-esque character, if you choose a Specialist Wizard that specializes in Conjuration, and learn ANY skill that starts with Summon, or is the spell Monster Summoning #.

 

Apart from that, since I don't feel like browsing the 300 spells at the back of the book, you can also pick any spell that resembles a spell you can cast in Geneforge.

 

That could get you SIMILIAR to a Shaper, you just wouldn't be able to make Geneforge-specific creations.

 

(You could just pretend that the monsters you are creating are the Geneforge equivalent, but I don't know what you would call them if you spawned Kobolds.)

 

 

When I find my 3.0 book, I shall keep you posted.

[Janitorial Closet]

(This shall be the post I edit when I find my 3.0 book)

 

The reason I am suggesting you use in-game classes to achieve your Shaperie ends, is that you want to make sure that the class won't be over/under-powered when compared to Monsters of your CP and other classes of your equivalent level.

[Lord Safey]

sure it would be easier and I'll probably have trouble balancing it. Once I get a character class that is even roughly playable I will start playing just to balance it out.

 

This is on going project for me and half if not most of the fun is going to be in creating it. So is it harder this way prehaps but its more fun this way and I will more please with the results when I get finished (If I get finished)

[Brock The Archmage]

OOOoOOOOOOOOOO a challenge! I, in my status as DM, will first search my books and see If I can turn up something already like that, and if not, shall post my ideas that I am willing to share in this post!

 

Have fun!

 

EDIT: If you have the Complete Arcane book, look at the social structure of the prestige class Mage of the Arcane Order for ideas to further the playability of the Shaper sect, for background and all those juicy tidbits you can't get directly from the game for whatever reason.

 

EDIT: The Effigy Master class in Complete Arcane focuses on constructs, with some modification it could apply to living things they make.

 

EDIT: Fatespinner class from Complete Arcane could be a good Mental mage i guess.... just also specialize in enchantment.... NO! mindbender is much better at that!

 

EDIT: apply some of the Master Transmogrifist's abilities from Complete Arcane to the creations.

 

EDIT: the Suel ArcanaMech could be an Agent with some changes. Also from Complete Arcane. If you hadn't guessed yet, Complete Arcane is the first book I opened.

 

EDIT: canister effect adds level of Sorcerer, please discuss? or adds a spell to the spell known list?

The main problem with the D and D system as opposed to any other system is the fact that level determines the effectiveness of you magic, by far much more than any innate talent or special training you may have. so maybe add an EFFECTIVE level in your casting of a certain kind of spell when using a canister?

 

EDIT: Ultimate Magus class (Complete Mage) would be a combination of the learned art of magic and the innate part of magic, and could make some really strong characters. See above.

[Janitorial Closet]

Originally Posted By: Brock The Archmage

canister effect adds level of Sorcerer, please discuss? or adds a spell to the spell known list?
The main problem with the D and D system as opposed to any other system is the fact that level determines the effectiveness of you magic, by far much more than any innate talent or special training you may have. so maybe add an EFFECTIVE level in your casting of a certain kind of spell when using a canister?

But some spells aren't affected as much (as they should be for that use) from equivalent level. For some spells, you might have to have a canister add TWO effective levels or even THREE effective levels, to make them worth it for the "arrogance".

Or, just to solve the problem, don't have canisters! (Any other class could be ruined if they use a canister- How would canisters affect them?)

[Alorael at Large]

If you're willing to delve a little deeper, you don't need new mechanics for canisters, you can co-opt old ones. Why do adventurers gain so many levels while everyone else remains at the same level of power? Canister (and Geneforge) abuse.

 

Or do it like Geneforge. A canister gives a bonus to one thing. One save, one skill, caster level on one spell (or one school of spells), or one kind of attack. And then don't give them out too much, because using computer game mechanics for a tabletop game is usually a terrible idea.

 

—Alorael, who thinks canisters are a separate issue, since they affect everyone in Geneforgeland, not just shapers.

[Brock The Archmage]

See, I actually tried adapting the canister part into D and D already, it didn't work too well. It works wonders in 4th edition Shadowrun's system (not world, of course), it just adds bonus dice to a particular task.

 

Really, the only way a canister can fully be totally adapted into a tabletop RPG would be to have the spell and Shaping system have levels like in the game so the canister effect can be singled into a single ability that it increases.

 

I foresee a problem with Canisters that increase base attributes like Strength. Too Powerful.

 

All in all, Canisters are troublesome, but Shapinjg could be as easy to adapt as changing a class or the summoning spells to suit your needs, adding some skills including knowledge, etc.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Janitorial Closet

But some spells aren't affected as much (as they should be for that use) from equivalent level. For some spells, you might have to have a canister add TWO effective levels or even THREE effective levels, to make them worth it for the "arrogance".

I don't see why this is a problem. Some canisters are worth more than others in the games themselves; if every canister gives a fixed +1 to caster level in one spell and a corresponding -1 penalty to Will saves against spontaneous outbursts of rage, that's a simple and fair rule, even if it means that some canisters are rarely used. (Some scrolls and wands are rarely used too, but that doesn't mean you get any kind of discount when you make them, unless your DM is feeling nice.)

Quote:

Or, just to solve the problem, don't have canisters! (Any other class could be ruined if they use a canister- How would canisters affect them?)

Well, there are two reasonable options here:

1) In the original Geneforge games, you still needed a certain level of magical ability to actually cast spells that you knew. So if the spell is at a higher spell level than you'd ordinarily be able to cast, then you know the spell but can't cast it yet. This makes canisters that teach spells useless to non-spellcasting classes; you can decide for yourself whether this is a bug or a feature.

2) You learn the spell no matter what class you are. Of course, since you have no other magical skills, you cast it at a caster level of 1 (or at a caster level equal to however many canisters you've taken of that particular spell). Using a canister would be the equivalent of, say, a fighter taking a level dip in an arcane caster class just to be able to cast true strike -- except you only get one spell, and the penalty is a situational one instead of a wasted level.

Adding a canister system into the d20 rules actually seems more viable and more interesting to me than adding a Shaper class.

[Brock The Archmage]

well, when you put it that way....

[Alorael at Large]

Spell canisters are the easy ones. Either spell access or +1 caster level is a fine mechanic, and you can still do the same thing. +1 to skills, +1 to saves or attacks, and so on. Or more, if your really feel like it.

 

—Alorael, who thinks the real concern is balance, and balance is up to the DM. Or you can consider them slotless magic items and use existing effects and prices.

[Lilith]

Come to think of it, it'd probably be a good idea for balance reasons to limit the number of canisters of the same type that can stack, in the same way that intrinsic stat bonuses from wish spells are capped at 5. Unlimited stackable permanent bonuses would be unbalanced.

[Janitorial Closet]

(I still haven't found my 3.0 book) You could just make canisters minor artifacts, and use that system for how rare they should be.

 

(Unless you are/have a DM that does this-- DM- "Ok, you find another Hand of Vecna" Player- "But I already have 4 of them! How many hands did this guy HAVE?!")

[Alorael at Large]

Canisters are limited by availability in the games. They should be limited similarly in any tabletop game.

 

—Alorael, who alternately suggests a heavily augmented party facing equally heavily improved enemies. Balance just means fun, really.

[Brock The Archmage]

Rather than limit how many can stack, the DM should realize that unlike in Geneforge, there are a lot more spells and abilities, so if a party finds any canisters, they are probably not going to be of the same type. I am having a conversation with Safey atm, and he was trying to adapt the psionics rules instead of the spell's rules. I find that interesting, Power points would be his "essence", but I don't know how well it would work, need a cost for the creations and all that.

 

 

Before I ever read the psionics handbook I came up with a system for it, and then I got it, and the only difference was power point amounts, and the fact that they had wierd powers that can use acid and stuff somehow. I never got that-It's a cheap way to use magic!

[Alorael at Large]

Psionics are a slightly better fit with shapers anyway. They have just the right touch of pseudoscience rather than purely fantastical powers.

 

—Alorael, who can't see how power points are any harder to balance cost with than spells. As a bonus, it makes a lot more sense to say that a fyora costs, say, 5 power points as a base rather than saying it takes some combination of spell slots.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Brock The Archmage

Rather than limit how many can stack, the DM should realize that unlike in Geneforge, there are a lot more spells and abilities, so if a party finds any canisters, they are probably not going to be of the same type.

This works just fine if you don't want PCs to be able to make canisters. If you do, you're going to need some mechanism to limit how many they use; cost alone isn't going to cut it. (If you don't, get ready to hear your players whine to you about how they want to be able to make their own canisters every fifteen minutes.)

Originally Posted By: guess who

—Alorael, who can't see how power points are any harder to balance cost with than spells.

The answer to this is augmentation and metapsionics, basically. The amount of metamagic you can stack on a spell is limited by your maximum spell level, but if you really want to, you can spend your entire daily allotment of power points on one ridiculously tricked-out power. This isn't as unbalanced as it sounds, since there are only a few situations in which doing that is really your best option.

[Randomizer]

You can limit canister ingredient availability since pure steel rings aren't easy to get. This should slow canister making unless the gamemaster isn't keeping control of the game.

 

Using psionic type point system instead of having canisters adding extra spells per day or some other system will work. You have to figure a way to limit the canister mad user from getting too powerful by emphasizing the lost control when the first merchant he meets wants too high a price. Although I've always wanted to blast one for that.

[Brock The Archmage]

Originally Posted By: Thuryl

The answer to this is augmentation and metapsionics, basically. The amount of metamagic you can stack on a spell is limited by your maximum spell level, but if you really want to, you can spend your entire daily allotment of power points on one ridiculously tricked-out power. This isn't as unbalanced as it sounds, since there are only a few situations in which doing that is really your best option.

The maximum power points you can spend on any one power is your manifester level.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Brock The Archmage

The maximum power points you can spend on any one power is your manifester level.

I thought there were feats and powers that allowed you to effectively bypass that limit in various ways, weren't there? Like Schism, which allows you to manifest multiple powers per round. (Of course, once you start talking about absurdly specialised character-optimisation builds to take advantage of that sort of thing, wizards can do that better than psions can anyway.)

[Alorael at Large]

There's no need to work hard on limiting canisters or balancing canisters. Treat them either as magic items or as DM-controlled substances and your work is done, one way or another.

 

—Alorael, who still doesn't see the balance problem. Giving up power points is obviously a bad thing, because you're somehow limiting your other abilities. Exactly how limiting a number of power points is balances with the cost of a creation.

[Brock The Archmage]

The Shaper would have few psion abilities compared to other classes, the bulk of the points are FOR the Shaping.

 

Thuryl-are we both talking about 3.5 edition here? Because the only way toi bypass that limit in 3.5 is to take a feat that raises effective manifester level by 4 every time you take it.