The Fall of the Cryoan Empire

[Slarzahl]

The more I look at it, the more I am concluding that it's not worthwhile to pump a shaping skill early -- or at all.

 

First of all, Cryoa don't really end up any better than Roamers, except for having slightly more ammo.

 

Second of all, once you hit Drayks, the benefits from having high shaping skill are pretty low, as far as individual creations go. Levelled Roamers and Cryoa are cheaper than Drayks but otherwise not any better, and you can more than make up the essence cost by putting some of those 36 skill points into Intelligence.

 

Third of all, mixing shaping types is at least mildly useful, as there are good reasons to make one Vlish over a Roamer and a Wingbolt over a Kyshakk. Plus you can just make an army of cheap Artila in chapter 1 and steamroll the chapter.

 

Fourth of all -- and this is the kicker -- because of the 10-cap on shaping skill benefits and the fact that you eventually have +6 to shaping available from items, if you charge to 10 shaping skill right away, you will effectively be paying double for bonus levels -- up to 12 skill points for a single level. That's not so hot.

 

So, my new theory is: don't neglect Leadership and Mechanics. Don't pump shaping skills. Make some Artila and kill things. Pump Int. Pump spell skills. Make a Vlish or two. Pump Int more, make Drayks and Kyshakks or Wingbolts, and live happily ever after.

[Delicious Vlish]

And this is why I've said that the shaper / lifecrafter types are hosed.

 

Even during the beta, I said that all of the reasons to specialise in shaping are now gone because of creation costs and reduced skill levels. All of the prestige and glory of being a dedicated shaper is no more.

 

For a moment, lets take a look at the Servile and the Lifecrafter. Both have roughly the same cost for magic skills. They are both average.

 

Now, the Lifecrafter is frail and fragile. Many scripted encounters place him in the front of combat, including at least one or two nasty battles with drakons who can eat him with one chomp. The Lifecrafter really has NO need at all to add to shaping skills. No, really. With the items in the game, the Lifecrafter will be able to shape anything and everything if he is patient. So the Lifecrafter is free to bump up magic out the wazoo or work on geek skills.

 

But why bother?

 

The Servile can also shape pretty much everything in the game once the right items are found. Gets more health, has better geek skills, has the exact same magic costs, and gets an absurd number of hit points.

 

Avantage here?

 

Shall I even bother going in to a blow by blow analysis of other classes and how they compare to the Servile... Like, the warrior for example, the grand master of combat who has average shaping skills... Guess who comes out so far ahead on the raw power scale between the warrior and the servile... Guess who has more hit points, better armor, equal shaping abilities, better crowd control, better damage spreads, better to hit accuracy... Just make a guess. I didn't realise this during the beta. I was busy playing all of the different classes at different points of the game and had not managed to optimise everything yet. Guess who makes the best melee character? The best shaper type? The best mage?

 

All of the power of the shaper class is neutered. All of the other classes are poorly optimised for what they are actually designed for. Anything they can do, the servile can do better. Magic, melee, shaping. Either through items, careful build design and skill point spread, or the raw power of magic to cover any thin areas. The servile class has no disadvantage, no weakness. No failing.

[Student of Trinity]

No scripted encounters I remember actually force you to be anywhere, except Moseh's (about which I pestered Jeff repeatedly). You can start duels without formally offering the final 'I'm ready' challenge, and no-one seems to think the worse of you for it. So your fragile lifecrafter can hide in the distance while your uber-creation strikes the first blow. Drakons are cool with that.

 

My Servile has been playing as a singleton, and so far (near end of Chapter 4) this is fine for the necessary encounters but does not let me wipe the floor with optionals by any means. In particular Thornton, Western Barrier Zone, the Turabi Gate and Matala are all very tough. Which is to say I haven't managed yet to do them on Torment, and I'm at level 37. I'm thinking that more pumping on Mental Magic would pay off a lot here, but so far the game has by no means been a cakewalk.

 

The Servile does not get the enormous amounts of Essence that Lifecrafters and Shock Troopers enjoy, so I'm expecting that a Servile who did try to shape would field a disappointingly small force compared to a Lifecrafter. This is Geneforge, creations are good, and quantity has a quality all its own.

[Slarzahl]

I don't entirely agree. Compared to Serviles, Lifecrafters get:

 

1/3 less Health

Hugely lower melee ability

Worse Quick Action

Worse Parry

 

and

 

1/3 more Essence

+2 Intelligence

Mildly better creations

 

I think the melee ability is balanced out by being able to have more creations at any point in the game -- though the Servile is certainly more versatile. So it's really a question of whether that also balances out the lower Parry and HP.

 

Let's take a look at how much Essence a Servile and a Lifecrafter, with the same investment in Intelligence and the same equipment, will have at several fabricated points. (You can get a lot of bonuses to Int from items so these are fairly reasonable numbers):

 

Code:

LV   Int +   Servile  Lifecrafter---  -----   -------  -----------  5    +2        28    46 10    +5        69   109 15    +8       130   192 20    +12      233   346 30    +16      428   630 40    +16      562   830

This is a significant difference. A Lifecrafter can afford more creations in the first 2 chapters, and better creations in the last 3.

 

Essentially, a lifecrafter potentially has more offensive firepower at any point. And a servile has better defense and, therefore, more options in terms of how to do things at any point.

 

In the end I think they are both good options. (The other three classes are worse, of course.)

[Delicious Vlish]

I believe that the servile's ability to apply damage directly either through magic or melee gives them a distinct advantage over the lifecrafter and his creations.

 

I also believe that the absurdly high number of hit points tilts the game in the servile's favour.

 

The only thing that really matters in this game is magic skill... Just as before in the three previous games. Creations, the ability to create, that is just gravy. Both the servile and the lifecrafter are fairly equal in terms of magical abilities, however, the servile gains turtle mage status and becomes rather indestructable once you know what you are doing.

 

Indestructable like killing Shaftoe before you are level 20. Or clearing the Circle of the Dryak in your early teens.

 

With the new AP system, there are to many things that slip past your creations, and the lifecrafter does not have enough life. There are a million little factors. My point is, lifecrafters have some glaring weaknesses to go along with their moderate strength. (Strength that any class can have by the way, with no real investment) The servile, where is the weakness?

[Khoth]

It maybe changed in later betas, but in my experience the scripted encounters respect party order and formation, so a Lifecrafter can be behind his creations without much difficulty.

 

[Disclaimer: I haven't played on Torment]

 

In my experience, in only a few encounters will enemies be particularly dedicated in hunting down my Lifecrafter, and normally by spreading your creations' attacks around in the first round you can make sure the enemies don't focus on you.

 

I do agree that the cheap shaping skills are unimportant, but I think the extra essence is very useful. Having 1/3 extra creations is rather nice (I rarely had fewer than five), and the low HP can be offset by a combination of Augmentation and not getting attacked,

[Spidweb]

Benafits from any given creation making stat slow down at 10. They don't stop. I'm going to change this for future versions, though, so that every level of shaping skill gives a level of creation. It shouldn't work like it does now.

 

That being said, in my own playing of the game, I found that putting points into Shaping skills made for considerably more powerful creations. Plus characters skilled in Shaping get an essence bonus. I think that saying Shapers are neutered is really overstating the case.

 

- Jeff Vogel

[Delicious Vlish]

Maybe it is... It just feels like it is entirely to easy to have all of the perks of shaping with none of the downsides usually associated with it. Low hit points, dramatic skill investments, all of the dedication that used to belong with making a really good shaper. You wound up with really strong creations and it payed off big. In echange for personal weakness, your army had a great deal of strength.

 

Now, with a measly 2 or more points in magic shaping, you can create an army of wingbolts that will utterly smash anything in your path. And you don't even need to spend those skill points. You can get all your points from items and still come out with plenty of levels of magic shaping to make said wingbolts even better.

 

This was a really good thing I thought at first. Now, after a couple of times though, it is easy to see that this ability gives to much to some classes and, well, takes away from others. You can play a shaper type character now and never once add to shaping, and still have the sort of creation army that can and will win the game for you. You can have your cake and eat it too. Godlike indestructability AND an unstoppable army of creations.

 

Previously, it was either one or the other. Agents offered Godlike power, and shapers offered Godzilla like creations. Now, the two have merged leaving no downsides, no weak spot, no thin place.

 

It obviously wasn't intentional, and I sort of saw a bit of balance problem in the beta, but I did not see the full effect until now. In order to be really good at something, you had to give up something, at least that is how it was. There was the Guardian, which on higher difficulties was the challenge character, fun to play with for tactical purposes, like the Hunter Guardian. There was the Agent, who was arguably, well, a devine being. And the Shaper.

 

Now, well, the line is blurry. You can use an infiltrator or a servile to make a perfectly serviceable and quite powerful shaper type. But this is reduntant, because the servile comes out miles ahead from the infiltrator really. By endgame, the cost for magic skills is leveled out by better hit points, combat skills, higher starting physical stats, etc. The Warrior and the Shock Trooper are redundant as well, overlapping far to much. With the shaper skill boosters, neither class really needs to add to shaping skills, so the Warrior edges out the Shock Trooper for slightly cheaper combat skills. I played both a Warrior and a Shock Trooper right up through to the end of the game and they are, for all intents and purposes, the exact same character, who is ideally better off letting items boost their shaping skills and saving their skill points for other things, simply because a few extra levels on a creation makes no difference at all really.

 

For all out melee, A Servile can trounce the Warrior with no effort at all. Magic is the great leveler. With cheap blessing magic at higher levels, a Servile has better combat skills than the warrior. Better to hit, better armor, better damage, better physical and magical protection, all things the warrior can't muster because of high skill cost. So the warrior, really, has become redundant. You can make a better character for combat with another class. And the shaping skills, being average or poor, do not reflect in this decision because both classes can in effect, shape equally because of the changes made. So the servile wins out for cheaper magic skills.

 

Which leaves the Servile and the Lifecrafter as the two character classes that are optimal. Both have the same capicity for magic, but one shapes, and has low hit points, and the other melees, and has oodles of hit points. With these two classes being the strongest classes, for all intents and purposes, you can further blur the line between servile and lifecrafter with items, but you can not make a lifecrafter more servile-like. Lower hit points and combat skills hobble the lifecrafter from full potential.

 

So, the Servile can have it all, literally, while the Lifecrafter still has to live with a few glaring weaknesses. Therein lies the neutering... Or at least the cheapening of the shaper as a character. There is no longer a reason or a need to have those weaknesses, you can have it all. You don't have to accept the weaknesses to have all of the power. A servile with a pair of cryodryaks and a wingbolt or two is just as powerful as a lifecrafter with the same creations, and holds an edge because of hit points and probably better magical damage. And of course the servile will have better magical skills, he doesn't need to pump anything else really. While a lifecrafter on the other hand should be pumping his shaping skills. What is the point if playing a shaper if you don't pump those? Although technically you could ignore your shaping skills and get what you need through items, and pump magic skills out of the wazoo to support your creations. But if you did that, might as well get the hit point and physical melee stats of the servile.

 

Make sense just a little?

[Alorael at Large]

I feel slightly stupid for not realizing that shaping skill benefits tapered off, but now I can understand why shaping becomes slightly less absurdly powerful at high levels.

 

I agree with your analysis of classes up to a point. Your need for shaping skill is limited, so for fighter types that's the lowest priority; magic is essential. Thus serviles trump warriors, shock troopers are in an unfortunate position, and while I never played an infiltrator I'll accept that it can't quite match the servile either.

 

Where I disagree is in the analysis of the servile and the lifecrafter. They're equal in magic, but a lifecrafter (as I played it) doesn't need or really benefit from any fighting skill at all. All those skill points are better spent on magic or a little bit of shaping or, often, Endurance to make the character less fragile. The result can't tank like a servile, but the extra skill points and essence pull the lifecrafter ahead in army creation and in magic use. I'm not convinced that an attacking servile is worth a few powerful creations on your side.

 

—Alorael, who concludes that a class with lifecrafter bonuses and magic and shaping reversed would be utterly broken. That isn't quite what the fifth class would have been, but it's probably for the best that it was omitted.

[Student of Trinity]

Yeah, my Servile took Shaftoe and the Circle of the Drayk at those levels; it's not a bad class by any means. But you can do the same at least as easily with a Lifecrafter. Having four to seven creations amplifies the benefits of mass buffs, but it also gives more tactical options. For instance enemies usually don't concentrate all their attacks on one creation, then run away to recover after bringing it down. But you can do that to them, and thus gradually wear down groups that consistently overwhelm smaller parties.

 

And this is an example of why I think you have to be careful in judging how big an advantage or disadvantage is.

 

A Servile who did his best to be a Lifecrafter, by pumping Int and buying some skills, might only lag by 30% and 2 points Int. But he would be left with melee skills that were worthless for the second half of the game, and health too low to absorb late game damage, and then it wouldn't matter how much better he is in melee than the true Lifecrafter, because neither of them would ever fight in person.

 

So the Servile-as-Lifecrafter might be only a 30% worse Lifecrafter, and still significantly better in melee and health, but really that just means he's a 30% worse Lifecrafter, with no compensations that count. And 30% is a big margin.

 

Of course, the Servile who sacrifices everything to be the best Lifecrafter he can is a straw creation. And a Servile who is mostly built for melee, but does make the slight effort to have a decent creation or two, will indeed be a strong character. But his shaping capabilities will be a lot more than 30% behind those of a well-built Lifecrafter. I'm just saying that you have to compare the best build of each class, in performance against the whole game, rather than simply weighing the classes' base properties against each other.

[Delicious Vlish]

I compare by averages and an overall comparison of said class.

 

By averages, health is better, creations are of a similar strength, combat skills can be boosted by items up to an above average acceptable level, and further boosted by blessing magic. The servile comes out better in the averages as a whole.

 

And really, it is the items fault. You can buy your combat skills, boost them with some items, and even with zero combat investment, you have 100% hit rates and insane damage, because of blessing magic. You don't need to invest in a single point of combat skills. Heck, you can clear 10 or so melee skills quite easily from buying skills and using an item or two. Mass Energise will turn you into Captain Cusinart in melee.

 

My current servile has only invested in int, leadership, mechanics, and magic skills. Everything else, he can get for free at no investment cost. Oh, and a point or two in endurance.

[Alorael at Large]

And a lifecrafter who does the same is less of a cuisinart and more of an excuse to tote several cuisinarts. Yes, a servile can have some creations, but he has to sacrifice either quantity or have more of a lower tier. Just like the serviles' extra health helps immensely in combat, I've found that lifecrafters are significantly superior at shaping even without any real skill investment. With just intelligence and endurance and enough shaping to make things they are frighteningly effective.

 

—Alorael, whose first lifecrafter was guilty of exteme use of nerd skills and eventually got stuck in Burwood. A new lifecrafter started around the time of the big beta changes with a few nerd skills, endurance, intelligence, magic, and just enough shaping to make the necessary creations bulldozed through the parts of Burwood that were previously lethal.

[Randomizer]

I ran a lifecrafter before and after the changes in betas. A lifecrafter is a deadweight after the first few chapters. All you do it buff, heal, and daze while the creations do all the fighting. If you have enough creations you can get around the AI's tendency to send an enemy creation off to kill your frail lifecrafter.

 

A servile even with the gruesome charm will always have more health through out the game. With the extra strength he can wear heavier armor to reduce the damage even more. Parry will occasionally block attacks that the lifecrafter will always face.

 

The servile's one real problem is lower essence that will keep him from making as big and powerful an army of creations. However there are plenty of powerful mid range creations like drayks, cryodrayks, rotgroths, kyshakks, and wingbolts that will be enough for the end game.

 

If you want an extreme case, I ran a servile pacifist with a fyora that did all the attacks while the servile did the magic. The higher starting dexteriy and quick action allowed the combination to devastate most encounters since the servile's daze came first and the fyora attacked after the monster's turn or killed its target. If I had used a cryoa it would have been even more devastating. No need to raise anything but mental and blessing magic and healing craft. I didn't even raise fire shaping from the start since an occasional raise of creation strength was enough.

 

Serviles are way overpowered versus the other classes.

[Delicious Vlish]

It is not so much the servile though to be fair. It is the servile that is the optimal class to use all of the right items that makes them, well, brutally overpowered.

 

Well, that is not totally true. Part of it that they are capable magic users with warrior like hit points, and using the right buffs and with some endurance, since there is so few other places to spend skill points, it is not hard at all to hit 500 or more hit points. Heck, at the 300 or the 400 mark you really become quite the little monster. Unlike the Agent of long ago, you don't need to duck behind a corner and string a battle out. You just stand your ground and keep casting, keep stabbing, or keep shooting till everything is dead. Having something chomp you for 100 damage isn't a big deal, it certainly isn't fatal, and you could take a few more hits if you had to. Not much is likely to hit you for a hundred damage though. Armor buffs, elemental protection though items and spells, all that stuff, most things chip away at you doing 10 or 20 damage here and there when they actually get lucky enough to hit you, or get past your parry.

[Slarzahl]

1) There are some gross exaggerations and misstatements floating around here.

 

The Servile does not have "absurdly" more health than the Lifecrafter. It has about 1/2 more health. They even start with the same Endurance. It has a much easier time getting a high Parry, but Parry doesn't reduce damage as much as it did in A4 even. So it's ridiculous to say the Servile is really that much more survivable. You might not pay as much attention to a Lifecrafter's health, but if so, that's because you don't need to, not because you can't.

 

2) Jeff, pumping the shaping skills does make for considerably more powerful 1st- and 2nd-tier creations. Artila and Cryoa get a lot out of them. However, because the 4th- and 5th-tier creations (plus Drayks) start at such high levels and have such high HP and Energy bonuses and attack skills, the effects on those creations are greatly mitigated. Across the board, HP is only fractionally better, Energy is meaningless for many of those creations anyway, and attack strength goes up by a tiny percentage even when you pump skills to 10.

 

Ramping up damage multipliers for their attack types in G4 helped them A LOT -- it made them useful, rather than worse than Vlish. But when they have a base level around 30, a high base attack skill and sometimes even a Strength bonus, they are going to start out with 30 or 40 levels of attack strength. That only goes up by 1 level per 2 experience levels of the creation... not a very large increase.

 

3) DV, you keep repeating the benefits of using a Servile but you have not done anything to discredit the benefits of using a Lifecrafter that SoT, Khoth, and others have mentioned.

 

The Servile and Lifecrafter are similar in power, each with different sorts of flexibility that allow an answer to most any situation. I'm willing to go out on a limb and say that. They are balanced, much more balanced than Agents and Shapers ever were!

[Synergy]

Hmm, interesting discussion here. I am reflecting on how freaking tricky it must be to create a truly balanced game. I have played a game from beginning to end with every class except Warrior (I played half to two-thirds) and the Lifecrafter (which I am halfway through a game with at present, but played partial games several times during beta tests.)

 

Bottom line gaming experience for me is I've had no problem making any type very successful. Some are just MORE successful with fewer frustrations than others. I made a very powerful Infiltrator and a very capable Shock Trooper. I love melee and magic ability and it's painful for me to sacrifice melee ability in the Lifecrafter. The Servile I just played was very effective, but I can't say it felt sickly more potent than say, my Infilatrator. The bottom line though, is that ultimately you almost surely have to make a couple creations at some point to do everything in the game. I see them as topping though.

 

One can do virtually everything in this game as a singleton with some combination of strong magic and melee. Everyone but the Lifecrafter is capable of this. The Lifecrafter holds his own by virtue of having an army on his side, but when you are outnumbered, unless you hold far back, one hit by much of anything later in the game will take him out. Ultimately the Lifecrafter is the most vulnerable, I think. But I've had fun playing every build.

 

If I were to have a complaint, besides the fact that the Lifecrafter doesn't feel as valuable for its special ability as it evidently once was, is that the game feels too easy, even on Torment. There were some truly nasty fights and areas which became altogether too manageable by the time the beta testing was done. I'm not that much a jock at these games, really. I think my instinct to do what it takes to optimize loot and XP, preferably as a solo PC, makes success inevitable. The deep analysis of class optimization is almost mute, in that strategy wins out over any gross advantage of any class.

 

I still say magic is king in this game. It's the common denominator of how easy your game will be in my experience.

 

-S-

[Delicious Vlish]

I agree with you there that the servile and the lifecrafter are balanced, up to a point. But I still believe a lot of the reasons to be a shaper type are no longer there. I feel the trade off is just to much.

 

The real problem here is, there are classes other than the servile and the lifecrafter. And they are badly diminished.

 

But I stand by what I said. A lot of what made shapers so much fun to play and what made them powerful is gone from this game.

 

After thinking about it, I believe part of why I feel the way I do is the disposable creations. Unstable thahds. Exploding Vlish. And the new creations explode as well on their second level. Just feel... I don't know... Gypped. No more thahd shades. So many of the higher level creations are gone, and none of the new creations are stable in their second form. So the reasons for having high level shaping skills, well, they are sort of gone.

 

I guess I feel that all those points that lifecrafters spend in shaping are better spent some place else.

[Synergy]

Quote:

Originally written by Delicious Vlish:
none of the new creations are stable in their second form.

Huh? Cryoa. Cryodrayks. Ur-Drakons. Eyebeasts. Not quite none stable. But I never once have used an unstable form apart from making one to see what they do. Not so fun when you can't save your pet for more than one outing.

-S-

[Delicious Vlish]

NEW creations. New. New. Of the three new creations added.

 

And some of the old ones have gone all explody as I have mentioned.

 

I felt really let down to get three levels of wingbolt hoping for some kind of uber wingbolt... What I got was disapointment.

[Synergy]

Sorry about that. All the difference one little unnoticed word can make. I can see why this would be disappointing. I don't have any previous GF experience to predispose me to any expectations or familiarity, so it was all new to me.

 

-S-

[Randomizer]

I haven't liked the disposable creations because the extra abilities and damage except for the vlish aren't worth the extra cost in essence. Having to be sure that an unstabled or charged creation is away from the rest of your party and especially you is annoying. I spent most of the last half of the game using that against my enemies since collateral damage could easily weaken and help destroy them. There was nothing more satisfying than seeing 4 or 5 burning kyshakks go up in a few well placed shots.

 

Slarty - I have to check on initial stats since Jeff changed them near the end of testing. While they all have the same initial endurance the fighting classes should get more health per level than the shaping. I checked and a sevile starts with 50% health at base and has a better multiplier so it adds up quickly.

 

It adds up since you need skill points for intelligence and shaping that a servile will use to get a 400+ health by chapter 4 with augmentation and essence armor.

[Slarzahl]

Something I often reflect on, in the midst of my inane analyses, is how incredibly similar the classes are. Really, the differences between the classes, even Servile vs Lifecrafter, are extremely minute as classes go in most games. They can all do everything, and the difference in effectiveness at any given task isn't even that big. They can all do everything well, some can just do some things a little better.

 

This is of course the result of Jeff's preference for freeform, unrestricted character skill systems. I happen to prefer a few sharply distinct options, which is probably why I go to such lengths to analyze the nearly identical classes we do have.

[Alorael at Large]

I agree about the lack of a need for things that go boom. Did anyone ever use pyroroamers in previous Geneforges? Still, you don't really need much more than cryoas, drayks, drakons, maybe some wingbolts and gazers, and roamers for special occasions.

 

There are two sides to the servile that you seem to like. One is being able to do damage. Lifecrafters can match magical damage and they don't even try physical damage because there's another drakon for that. Or two. I think the lifecrafter comes out ahead there.

 

The other is being able to sit in the thick of things and survive. Serviles can pull it off. Lifecrafters aren't as good at it, but you make it sound like they drop dead when targeted by vigorous sneezes. A well-madae lifecrafter should have plenty of health (yes, that means endurance) and enough strength to wear decent armor. No, they won't surive standing around in a melee alone, but lifecrafters should never take more than one or two hits in a round. You've got creations to steal attention, magic to keep yourself healthy, and plenty of AP to get you out of the way.

 

—Alorael, who thinks perhaps the problem is different lifecrafter builds. Since you really don't need so much shaping, especially at high levels, why are the lifecrafters turning into glass cannons (or maybe glass leash holders)? The skills that really help you not die (as opposed to kill things with a sword) are no harder for lifecrafters than serviles.

[Delicious Vlish]

I believe it would have been better to have had two classes. Servile and Rebel Human.

 

It is pretty much what the game boils down to now. How to flesh out the two characters, I have no clue, but make some skills cheaper for one and other skills cheaper for the other.

 

This thread has caused me to rethink a couple of my views, for better and for worse.

[Delicious Vlish]

Quote:

Originally written by Breaking and Logging In:
I agree about the lack of a need for things that go boom. Did anyone ever use pyroroamers in previous Geneforges? Still, you don't really need much more than cryoas, drayks, drakons, maybe some wingbolts and gazers, and roamers for special occasions.

There are two sides to the servile that you seem to like. One is being able to do damage. Lifecrafters can match magical damage and they don't even try physical damage because there's another drakon for that. Or two. I think the lifecrafter comes out ahead there.

The other is being able to sit in the thick of things and survive. Serviles can pull it off. Lifecrafters aren't as good at it, but you make it sound like they drop dead when targeted by vigorous sneezes. A well-madae lifecrafter should have plenty of health (yes, that means endurance) and enough strength to wear decent armor. No, they won't surive standing around in a melee alone, but lifecrafters should never take more than one or two hits in a round. You've got creations to steal attention, magic to keep yourself healthy, and plenty of AP to get you out of the way.

—Alorael, who thinks perhaps the problem is different lifecrafter builds. Since you really don't need so much shaping, especially at high levels, why are the lifecrafters turning into glass cannons (or maybe glass leash holders)? The skills that really help you not die (as opposed to kill things with a sword) are no harder for lifecrafters than serviles.

Ah, there is the problem I have. See, if you, as a lifecrafter, pump up your magic skills, you have to be in the thick of battle to use them. This means that with the new AP system, and how the enemy likes to target stuff, when your lifecrafter poofs off that burst of aura of flames or an acid shower, many angry creatures are going to come a howling for his blood. The new AP system is a darn good thing, but it plays hell on the lifecrafter. If you are close enough to shoot something with a baton, you are close enough to take fire or get chomped. Hence, the larger cushion of life needed. Even with endurance, the lifecrafter class is, well, somewhat fragile. You don't get very good returns on endurance investments.

[Slarzahl]

Quote:

Originally written by Randomizer:
While they all have the same initial endurance the fighting classes should get more health per level than the shaping. I checked and a sevile starts with 50% health at base and has a better multiplier so it adds up quickly.

See Classes .
The base stats are misleading, because each class gets HP (and Energy, and Essence) bonuses that are independent of level and class multiplier and Int/End. All classes get a flat 10 Essence to start with, but for HP they are different. Serviles get 30, and Lifecrafters get 20. The relative difference for points from levels and Endurance is about 10 for Serviles vs 7 for Lifecrafters. It might seem like 50% because you put more points there for your Servile. However, that's because you put more points there.

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It adds up since you need skill points for intelligence and shaping that a servile will use to get a 400+ health by chapter 4 with augmentation and essence armor.

As SoT commented, what matters is how you use it and whether it's needed. If a Lifecrafter can get along without 400 health, it's not a disadvantage. But again, if your Servile has 400 health your Lifecrafter can certainly have 250. Given the lack of need to pump shaping I don't see why a Lifecrafter would have fewer skill points to blow on HP than a Servile would.

[Synergy]

Happy 900th, Vlish.

 

I also wanted to add that in my experience, it was the Infiltrator who felt most powerful to me, with strong magic and average battle skills. I don't know what all the numbers say, but I think magic is the most powerful force in the game overall, and melee is next. Either combination of those two in the top two work especially well together, but somehow, the stronger magic of the Infiltrator felt more effective and satisfying to me overlall than the slightly stronger battle ability of the Servile. Why? Maybe it's because a Servile can only hit one thing at a time with what it does best. I think it is also because fairly low numbers in several Battle categories are effective. I have rarely missed hitting a thing with sword or missile in any game except with nearly wholly unboosted base numbers.

 

Shock Troopers and Warriors...not sure what the appeal would be, but I do like the somewhat maligned Infiltrator quite well. I think a Magic/Shaping build (the missing sixth) would have been sickly powerful in its own right too, because again here, magic gives most bang for buck, and it doesn't take tons of shaping discount to make powerful builds effectively.

 

-S-

[Slarzahl]

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—Alorael, who thinks perhaps the problem is different lifecrafter builds. Since you really don't need so much shaping, especially at high levels, why are the lifecrafters turning into glass cannons (or maybe glass leash holders)? The skills that really help you not die (as opposed to kill things with a sword) are no harder for lifecrafters than serviles.

Quoted for emphasis! This is what I should have said in fewer words. Listen to Alorael.

[Slarzahl]

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Originally written by Servile Synergy:
the stronger magic of the Infiltrator felt more effective and satisfying to me overlall than the slightly stronger battle ability of the Servile

AUGGHH so misleading! The Infiltrator's magic bonus boils down to about +4 levels of damage/duration/etc per spell compared to a Servile. This is not that big. The Servile's melee bonus over an Infiltrator is quite huge though, including +5 or so in Quick Action and Parry and the HP bonus.

Actually, what makes an Infiltrator tempting to ME is the better essence -- 7/8, halfway between 6/8 servile and 8/8 lifecrafter. But I think the other two classes are still better.

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Originally written by Servile Synergy:
I think it is also because fairly low numbers in several Battle categories are effective.

This is actually a much-ignored point that is worth paying attention to. Melee weapons get high base bonuses from the weapons themselves late in the game. +20 for the Puresteel Broadsword. Spells never get ANY base bonuses outside of your knowledge of the spell. So Aura of Flames gets Up to Spellcraft + Battle Magic + 3, while melee attacks get up to Str + Melee Weapons + 20.

[Synergy]

Well, like I said, my comment on the Infiltrator was based on my experience playing each role all the way through. It's a subjective experience and not an objective quantification, and it's subject to some skew in my playing style I am not aware of. But the fact that I played the Servile most recently, after knowing all the better how to optimize the game doesn't suggest to me it has any really observable gross advantage when it comes down to the actual gameplay.

 

I'd be curious to hear how others feel when they have tried both, to compare, and if they can really even practically tell the difference. I was expecting the Servile to feel even more deadly than my Infiltrator had, and it really didn't.

 

Maybe the most significant point made in this thread so far is that there really isn't large difference from class to class, unless you compare Servile to Lifecrafter.

 

So, after a good four full games and numerous more partial games, I find keeping up with Leadership and Mechanics appropriate to where you are in the game is what pays off in fun in efficiency all the way through. I haven't experienced any tremendous advantage by sacrificing those early on and rushing to buff something else extensively.

 

-S-

 

P.S. The extra essence and greater ability to use more magic alongside perfectly capable melee may be what chalks up for me as a more potent experience in my recollection. The extra essence also means more/more powerful creations when you need them. I had an eyebeast and Drakon alongside my Infiltrator at the end.

[Randomizer]

Actually a more Nethergate style where each class starts off not being able to do something would increase differentiation. All the classes start out being able to fight quite effectively against most of the monsters in Chapter 1 without increasing starting abilities. It's just that the differences aren't as striking as in the earlier games. Since Jeff revised shaping skills so all the classes start off with greater abilities and it takes less shaping skill to get tier 4 and 5 level creations, it's now easier for everyone to make powerful creations. The early betas made lifecrafters and shock troopers powerful since they could get the powerful creations that the others couldn't get without sacrificing their own special abilities. With the right equipment you don't even really need to spend skill points to make the better creations.

 

There needs to be a bit more rebalancing in the game so each class has something special.

 

The AI still goes after the last creation or character that attacks before its move so being an attacker as a low health character is sometimes fatal.

[Khoth]

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Originally written by Delicious Vlish:
when your lifecrafter poofs off that burst of aura of flames or an acid shower, many angry creatures are going to come a howling for his blood.

Doctor, it hurts when I do this.

[Student of Trinity]

So don't do that. Precisely.

 

Lifecrafters don't need the battle magic. They need good buffing and healing, to pump up the team before sending them out, then to play combat medic when they get hurt. When your Rotghroths are going toe-to-toe with comparable enemies, it's your Lifecrafter firing Major Heal from around the corner that makes the battle a sure thing. And the converse of DV's point is that if your PC doesn't do any damage to the enemies, they do not seem to come hunting for him much at all.

 

You can heal and buff without line of sight. Your Lifecrafter can also spare a few points for Endurance and Strength to carry armor, so he can survive coming out into the open in the late stages of a battle, when the enemies are thinned out and pinned down.

 

Mental Magic and Missile support are also options that would probably work very well. Keeping up enough missile skill to finish off the wounded, for instance, can be very handy. But just pumping Intelligence like crazy, to have a really big horde, is dandy.

 

I'd accept the view that Lifecrafter and Servile are pretty balanced. And I don't think Infiltrators are in any bad way, really. Mine wasn't ideal because she was mostly built before the Great Change. Significantly more Mental Magic would have made her much stronger.

 

I never tried Warrior or Shock Trooper, but I would think that if Servile and Lifecrafter both work well, then some sort of average between them ought to be just as good. I would think we have more of a long couch than a pair of stools.

[Slarzahl]

Unfortunately, Shock Troopers and Warriors are just worse, albeit minutely. Given that a shaping style character shouldn't be meleeing, the Shock Trooper is basically a Lifecrafter with worse magic, but slightly better HP and Parry. However, unless you regularly pump shaper Endurance much above 8, the HP difference is worth about 1 point of Endurance, whereas the magic difference is worth about 4 points (taking Spellcraft into account). Lifecrafter wins.

 

If we use the paradigm that pumping shaping skills is not worthwhile, the Warrior has no advantages whatsoever over the Servile, but he gets the same -4 in magic and loses 1/3 of his spell energy. Bzzt! Servile wins.

[Alorael at Large]

I think the key is that you absolutely need magic. I have no objection to getting better shaping from a warrior, but the loss of magic hurts a lot.

 

—Alorael, who should play as a lifecrafter again to decide whether it's more fun (not more optimal) to regularly get your creations killed in huge battles and then nonchalantly replace them. You lose a few creation levels but also a few levels of stress. That character is also a shoe-in as a Shaper.

[Randomizer]

Whatever you play you need to pump up mental magic to get all the spells. This is the one spell category that you need to deal with the big fights.

 

It helps to have a creation in certain fights. With the right items you can delay until after chapter 3 making a creation like in Sandros Mines expert area on the way to the Forgotten One.

 

With the changes in making creations between the early betas and the final version, making a powerful creation is easier for all the classes. This reduces the advantage that lifecrafters had and made shapers so powerful in the earlier games.