Rotghroth Rhapsody Locmaar Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 Originally Posted By: Not the ugliest of things Taygen's critique is correct in its essentials. Many a sci-fi writer would agree that making intelligent, self-replicating creations/robots is the height of stupidity. In what way is Taygen correct? What does sci-fi writers' potential agreement have to do with it? I'd love an answer that doesn't include sentences like 'haven't you played the game' or of similar meaning. I have. I just don't understand your point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curious Artila Lander Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 I just played through as a rebel, and I really liked the ending. I could tell early on, working for Ghaldring, that he and the drakons were obviously going to rule just like the shapers. I stuck through it anyway, and it was worth it. Taygen is very hypocritical, as you see if you play as a rebel. He seemed to use more creations than any other Council member. Oh, and intelligent self-replicating creations/robots does seem like a good idea at first, but yeah, try getting them to stay on your side till the end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall A less presumptuous name. Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 Originally Posted By: Analogue Bubblebath Originally Posted By: Chr1suf And the part with human as base form for the battle alpha and beta (as they are advanced alpha) was put there too. (not sure about the thahd was listed too as it really a long time ago but it was somewhere in the game.) Heustess definitely says that many creations came to be by experimental shaping on existing animals and men. I'm not sure it says that is categorically true of all creations, though. Clois does say she thinks serviles are shaped humans, but she's not sure. However, I don't think there's anything about battle alphas or betas being shaped from humans. It's certainly a reasonable conclusion to draw given their physical form, but I ran several searches of the G1 dump, including for "battle alpha" and "human" and found nothing linking the two. While I never got this far in GF1, here is my understanding from reading these threads: Original creations, the oldest ones, that is, started out as modified creations. Since that's how shaping started, if I recall correctly, it makes sense that the first creations were based very tightly on animals. However, modern creations, including serviles, resemble animals/humans, but are not made directly from them. That is, one can shape a servile is one knows how, and it doesn't require a human sacrifice (just image servile reproduction ceremonies if that were the case!) As for the lack of "normal" animals, jeff just didn't bother putting in animals besides giant rats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curious Artila Lander Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 Also, not all worms are shaped, are they? At least, not in the older ones. Please correct if wrong.. And what about those ones in G5 that you can't make, patchwork I think they are called? Sounds to me like they were a failed rushed experiment that turned out to be useful, but I never looked into it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnificent Ornk Dikiyoba Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 Quote: —Alorael, who also notes that the world of Geneforge seems highly devoid of life that isn't shaped or human. The absence of any animals upon which to base creations suggests that everything is from human stock originally. Yes, clawbugs too. Dogs exist, or did at one point. There's a few comments in G1 and G4 that imply that the PC knows what a dog is. The existence of giant rats (which are shaped according to G2) makes regular rats a reasonable assumption and the wingbolt creation survey mentions bats, so there do seem to be regular animals out there. Dikiyoba. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt Øther Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 If thats true than I guess that clawbugs are what they look like. Oversized scorpions, not shaped humans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Lilith Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 Originally Posted By: Not the ugliest of things The obvious solution, not to be found in the game, is for the Shapers to shape themselves, and seriously take up the study of rebel science. Which is a kind of crypto-rebel victory, as Taygen's ending is a crypto-Trakovite victory. Have you played Geneforge 1 yet? The Shapers tried that before. It ended badly for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Randomizer Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 GF1 was more about finding out that Shapers used shaping against their human enemies to change them and it worked out against them by making them more powerful for some. Either that or the shaped diseased affected them too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curious Artila Not the ugliest of things Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 In what way is Taygen correct 1. It's dumb to create a worthy competitor whose ecological niche greatly overlaps with your own, assuming you like yourself the way you are. 2. They aren't their kids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curious Artila Not the ugliest of things Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 Have you played Geneforge 1 yet? When it first came out on the Mac. Loved it. Did you forget the part about the bell? Someday mankind might master anti-matter as a source of energy. There will of course be the potential for anti-matter bombs. This is not an insurmountable problem. At the very least, rebel methods should reduce destructive testing of new creations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnificent Ornk Student of Trinity Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 Jeff's line 'You can't unring a bell' somehow never struck me as original, exactly; but if he didn't invent the notion, Jeff may have successfully stolen it. Even if someone else used the bell metaphor in this context first, they probably didn't have five popular shareware games fleshing it out. So, fairly or not, when I think about the irreversibility of discovery, I think of the Geneforge bell. Which is all sort of a justification for putting Jeff's line together with one by someone a good deal more famous than he is: Originally Posted By: J. Robert Oppenheimer It is a profound and necessary truth that the deep things in science are not found because they are useful; they are found because it was possible to find them. In other words, bells are rung because they are ringable, not because ringing them is a good idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Lilith Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 Originally Posted By: Not the ugliest of things Someday mankind might master anti-matter as a source of energy. There will of course be the potential for anti-matter bombs. This is not an insurmountable problem. Not an insurmountable problem in our world, maybe; but in the Geneforge world, it seems to be a law of nature that crossing a certain threshold of power by means of Shaping leads inevitably to insanity. If you want to argue that Jeff has made his world worked by a contrived set of rules in order to make a point, that is of course your right, but it doesn't change the facts of the matter. Originally Posted By: Student of Trinity Jeff's line 'You can't unring a bell' somehow never struck me as original, exactly; but if he didn't invent the notion, Jeff may have successfully stolen it. Even if someone else used the bell metaphor in this context first, they probably didn't have five popular shareware games fleshing it out. So, fairly or not, when I think about the irreversibility of discovery, I think of the Geneforge bell. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unring_the_bell It's an old saying. I'd heard of it long before playing Geneforge. It's also a Tom Waits song. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chittering Clawbug shadowss Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 Originally Posted By: Thuryl Originally Posted By: Danny the Fool If Taygen is a mass murderer, everybody in this forum who is not a vegan is one too. I've never yet met a cow that could talk to me. Are you sure? I do remember a talking ornk, which is the Shaper equivalent of a cow... Wow, good analysis Dan EDIT: one note I think a lot of people missed, is how to define ethical, after all what is ethical differs from society to society. EDIT2: I think that the Trakovites, may be able to bring more peace to everyone, whereas, the Sharpers have proven themselves responsible over their power. Despite this war occurring it was inevitable, but in the end who has been the most responsible for the awesome power they have attained? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt Øther Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 No one. I'm not a trakovite, but anyone who has gotten any sort of power in this game (Exept the PCs of course!) seems to have used it badly, some more than others. I think both the Shapers used it badly, and the rebels did also. But I also think that the rebels didn't use their power as badly, or mess up as badly. The reason? They didn't have time to. They would have eventually, but the war ended before that could happen. Seeing the endings; Click to reveal.. The drakons lose every time. The rebels kill them, the trakovites kill them, or the shapers kill them; they still end up dead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Lilith Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 Originally Posted By: shadowss Are you sure? I do remember a talking ornk, which is the Shaper equivalent of a cow... I meant in real life. He was making an analogy to real-life animals and I was pointing out that the analogy didn't apply because real-life animals aren't as intelligent as humans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt Spddin Ignis Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 Astoria is a trader, and whether she means good or not, ot doesn't justify the fact that she works behind the backs of the council. Taygen is paranoid and thinks that all creations are time bombs. Ghaldrin is Arrogant, he and his buddies just want to become the new shapers Litalia herself is weird Alwan is prettyol' scool Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Alorael at Large Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 Originally Posted By: Spddin Astoria is a trader And betrayal is her stock in trade? —Alorael, who will admit to puzzling over the original phrasing for a moment. Now please don't revive old threads when there are perfectly good recent ones on the same subject around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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