A return to shaping[G5]

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES

Absolutely not true about Wingbolts vs Tralls. You can sort of dash for Tralls in G5. You won't get them too soon, but not too late either. G4 doesn't really let you dash due to the game map structure.

Wingbolts are available pretty much from the start of chapter 3, as long as you're still on speaking terms with the Shapers. That gives you three whole chapters to level them up.

The endgame level difference isn't quite as big as you're saying, either. A creation-heavy shaper in G4 will finish the game at about level 42, whereas the same build in G5 will finish at about level 50.

[Slawbug]

Well, maybe the difference is less than I suggested, but there is a very real difference.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

42 seems a bit high. I got to 39 with a (rebel) lifecrafter who did pretty much every quest and area except Matala's Lab.

[Brocktree]

BTW, I did some number crunching, and found that it is quite reasonable to develop upper tier creations who can dodge reliably against other upper tier creations. That is impossible to achieve with the PC.

 

Just out of curiosity, does any creation receive a bonus to dexterity?

 

Edit: No, they don't. In fact, no creation receives the bonuses to strength/dex/end/int designated to them in the script.However, they do receive the bonuses to quick action, parry, and luck (gazers and eyebeasties)

[Slawbug]

I think NPC creations do receive those bonuses, just not the ones in your party. Not sure though.

 

Also, I think there is a specific dodge bonus for several creations in the scripts. It's been a while though.

 

Finally, care to share your crunching? I remember we tried that and abandoned it (this is back in 2006 now) but I don't remember if that was because it just wasn't possible, or because it was too expensive in terms of essence to be worthwhile. In particular, dodging is much harder on Torment, so are you talking about Normal or Torment?

[Brocktree]

A shock trall's chance to dodge (assuming lvl 16 in Shaping skill from investment and items)

 

Dexterity = [33 (base) + 3 (creation skill) + 16 (Shaping Skill)]/2 = 26

 

to Dodge = 26 * 5 = 130%

 

Protection = 10%

 

Dexterity boosting equipment = 8 = 40%

 

Adding 8 dex at creation create screen = 40%

 

Maximum to dodge = 220%

 

If enemy cursed = 240%

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Wingbolt's to hit%

 

Base of 100%

 

Dexterity of 24/2 = 12 = 60%

 

Lvl of attack = 2 = 10%

 

Total to hit = 170%

 

Wingbolt's chance to hit trall = -70% (rounded up to 20% in torment)

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War trall chance to hit%

 

Base of 80%

 

Dexterity of 32/2 = 16 = 80%

 

Lvl of attack = 15 = 75%

 

Total to hit% = 235%

 

To hit war tralls = 235% - 220% = 15%

 

 

 

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You could probably sink fewer points into dexterity at the create creation screen, and end up with appreciable dodge (40% is quite good for no real investment!)

 

It's a shame essence armour doesn't add to dodge in this game.

[Slawbug]

Two questions. First, you list the Wingbolt's chance as increasing 90% on Torment but do not list an increase for the Trall. Is that accurate?

 

Second, this sounds accurate for ordinary Wingbolts and War Tralls, but many enemies in the game show up with bonus levels (and other special abilities, but the bonus stats from the levels is the key part here).

 

Third, what is the final cost of a War Trall + 2 Int + 8 Dex? Pretty high, isn't it?

[Brocktree]

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES

Two questions. First, you list the Wingbolt's chance as increasing 90% on Torment but do not list an increase for the Trall. Is that accurate?

Wingbolts get a base % to hit of 100% because they use the Kill spell (ab_accuracy_adjust = 100). Then they receive another 10% at base because of this (cr_abil_level 1 = 2). Then they receive a dexterity bonus that is half their level (rounded down)

At least, that is how I understand it. However, I now realise that my calculations don't gel with what occurs in the game (the chance of my enemies to hit is *less* than what is calculated)

And damn, I just realised that enemies get a bonus to hit on Torment. Their ab_accuracy_adjust value doubles. Great. So now I'm completely stumped. The only way to really tell if my idea is plausible is to crank the difficultly to Torment, attack a high level enemy (eg. Astoria), and see and what level my creations start reliably evading.

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Second, this sounds accurate for ordinary Wingbolts and War Tralls, but many enemies in the game show up with bonus levels (and other special abilities, but the bonus stats from the levels is the key part here).

To be honest, I'm not sure what the highest level enemy is in the game.

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Third, what is the final cost of a War Trall + 2 Int + 8 Dex? Pretty high, isn't it?

Quite high. But arguably worth it if it receives such significant damage evasion.

Edit: 61 Dexterity gives your creations a 20% to dodge Astoria's melee attack on Torment. With the use of Protection and Curse, your creations only really need 55 to get this.

War tralls can get 12 dex from items, 8 from shaping stat (assume 16 in BS from items and points invested), 18 from base level, and 8 invested into dex on the creation create screen.

Total = 46 dex. 9 points off. With a dexterity of 46, your creations will be getting a 65% chance to be hit by a cursed Astoria. Gazers will be hit 45% chance to be hit. Hmm. Not that good.

[Slawbug]

Originally Posted By: Brocktree

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES

Two questions. First, you list the Wingbolt's chance as increasing 90% on Torment but do not list an increase for the Trall. Is that accurate?

Wingbolts get a base % to hit of 100% because they use the Kill spell (ab_accuracy_adjust = 100). Then they receive another 10% at base because of this (cr_abil_level 1 = 2). Then they receive a dexterity bonus that is half their level (rounded down)

I was actually talking about this part (my bolding):

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Wingbolt's chance to hit trall = -70% (rounded up to 20% in torment)

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And damn, I just realised that enemies get a bonus to hit on Torment. Their ab_accuracy_adjust value doubles.

Are you sure about the doubling? As in, you've noticed that exact difference on multiple enemies with different a_a_a values? When I tried to figure out what exactly Torment did -- this was in Avernum 4, but is likely the same or similar -- I had a hard time coming to any hard conclusions, but all of the effects I observed (increased HP, increased damage dealt, increased accuracy and evasion values, increased resistance to mental magic) could have been explained by one multiplicative increase to enemy level, with accompanying Geneforge-styles boosts to the four basic stats.

Also, I just realized for the enemy creations, we should be talking about Str and not Dex, since Str is what boosts accuracy and damage of all creation attacks, even breath attacks. This has been either a bug or a wildly misdocumented feature since Geneforge 1.

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Edit: 61 Dexterity gives your creations a 20% to dodge Astoria's melee attack on Torment. With the use of Protection and Curse, your creations only really need 55 to get this.

Unless I'm totally mistaken, you need a Vlish (otherwise a middling creation in G5) to apply the Curse status, and there is also no way to apply it to a group of enemies. I think that severely limits the extent to which you can rely on Curse.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES

Unless I'm totally mistaken, you need a Vlish (otherwise a middling creation in G5) to apply the Curse status, and there is also no way to apply it to a group of enemies. I think that severely limits the extent to which you can rely on Curse.

You can also apply it with a suitably enchanted weapon, although not with 100% reliability.

[Slawbug]

Awesome. Shock Trooper FTW.

 

EDIT: Also, I just noticed you used Shock Trall dodge rates and not War Trall dodge rates. Given the high HP decay rate and absurd essence cost on Shock Tralls, I don't think that's a fair substitution.

[Brocktree]

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES

I was actually talking about this part (my bolding):

Quote:

Wingbolt's chance to hit trall = -70% (rounded up to 20% in torment)

On thing I'm quite sure of is that on Torment, enemies can't ever have less than 20% to hit (after everything else is accounted for). Ergo. If, once all the calculations are done, the enemy has a 5% to hit, this will actually be capped at 20%. Or to express in more sensible terms, the enemy's chance to *miss* is capped at 80%.

Are you sure about the doubling? As in, you've noticed that exact difference on multiple enemies with different a_a_a values?

Well, I've noticed the doubling of the a__a_values with three types of enemies ( a_a_a values 50, 60 and 80).

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When I tried to figure out what exactly Torment did -- this was in Avernum 4, but is likely the same or similar -- I had a hard time coming to any hard conclusions, but all of the effects I observed (increased HP, increased damage dealt, increased accuracy and evasion values, increased resistance to mental magic) could have been explained by one multiplicative increase to enemy level, with accompanying Geneforge-styles boosts to the four basic stats.

That sounds overly complicated, to be honest. From what I can see, Torment gives enemies double a_a_a values, double damage and double HP (haven't formally tested the last two, just going over patterns I have observed).

Edit: Actually, it would be more accurate to say that your creations and the PC receive double damage on Torment. I've noticed that when your own creations attack each other/the PC, double damage is inflicted. Likewise, you inflict double damage on your creations when you attack them. But not on non-friendly NPCs.

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Unless I'm totally mistaken, you need a Vlish (otherwise a middling creation in G5) to apply the Curse status, and there is also no way to apply it to a group of enemies. I think that severely limits the extent to which you can rely on Curse.

No, you're quite correct. The only other alternative is to curse with a draining blade. I'm not sure exactly how viable that is late game.

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Also, I just noticed you used Shock Trall dodge rates and not War Trall dodge rates. Given the high HP decay rate and absurd essence cost on Shock Tralls, I don't think that's a fair substitution.

War Tralls are only one level lower that Shock Tralls, so the dodge rate shouldn't differ much.

To be honest, I don't think you can get Tralls to dodge reliably against high level named enemies, such as Astoria, named gazers, named Drakons, etc. However, it may well be possible with most other enemies.

[Alex]

The elephant in the room here is the aura attacks that boss-level opponents usually have. You can't dodge those with high Dexterity.

[Brocktree]

Originally Posted By: Alex

The elephant in the room here is the aura attacks that boss-level opponents usually have. You can't dodge those with high Dexterity.

How is that an 'elephant in the room'? Yes, even with high Dex you can't dodge aura/aoe attacks. I never claimed that high dex was the be all and end all. Being able to dodge even 50% of the enemies in the game reliably is pretty decent, a perk of sorts.

[Slawbug]

The problem is that given the essence requirements for what we're talking about, if it's just a great perk, it's not good enough to justify its cost.

 

I had forgotten how much of an issue that was with dodge strategies in Avernum and Geneforge, after trying it in Avadon where there are no undodgeable attacks whatsoever.

[Brocktree]

Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S

The problem is that given the essence requirements for what we're talking about, if it's just a great perk, it's not good enough to justify its cost.

I had forgotten how much of an issue that was with dodge strategies in Avernum and Geneforge, after trying it in Avadon where there are no undodgeable attacks whatsoever.

You're right. I'd forgotten just how little essence you have in Geneforge 5.

However, even if you don't sink those essence points into Dexterity, your creations should still have an OK dodge for most of the game, if you wear C.dex boosting equipment.