Creation List / Level Cap[G5]

[Slawbug]

I went and edited scripts to test a few things. I have a full list of creations and I found some limits.

 

The experience cap for your PC is 60,000, which means level 61 is the hardcoded limit. This limit does exist for creations when they gain experience, but it definitely does not exist for them when you shape them: You can shape a level 71 Eyebeast if you really want to. In practice this does mean there may be a practical limit to how high your shaping stats are useful at, depending on what point in the game you are shaping at, since creation level may max out on its own.

 

Format:

Base essence cost - Creation Name (Base level)

 

Full list of creations

 

10 - Fyora (2)

25 - Cryoa (7)

28 - Roamer (10)

15 - Pyroroamer (4)

60 - Drayk (24)

90 - Cryodrayk (28)

125 - Kyshakk (25)

160 - Burning Kyshakk (28)

150 - Drakon (32)

220 - Ur-Drakon (35)

 

8 - Thahd (4)

15 - Corrupted Thahd (12)

20 - Clawbug (10)

30 - Plated Clawbug (16)

40 - Battle Alpha (20)

60 - Battle Beta (26)

110 - Rotghroth (28)

160 - Rotdhizon (34)

125 - War Trall (32)

180 - Shock Trall (33)

 

12 - Artila (4)

40 - Plated Artila (12)

25 - Vlish (12)

75 - Charged Vlish (12)

60 - Glaahk (20)

80 - Ur-Glaahk (30)

140 - Wingbolt (24)

160 - Unstable Firebolt (24)

180 - Gazer (32)

240 - Eyebeast (38)

 

Addendum: The damage taken by unstable creations is exactly 10% of their current HP, plus 1. They die when reduced to about 10 HP. However, this damage is taken only every *two* rounds of battle. Regeneration shield heals about 30 HP *every* round of battle, which means that while in battle mode, it will keep creations at about 600 HP, barring any damage they might take.

 

Outside of battle, however, you get 1 regeneration for every 1 unstable HP loss, so it will only work up to about 300 HP.

 

The bottom line: unstable creations are extremely usable as one-shot allies in battle. (The Shock Trall will do more damage than anything else in the game, AND it stuns, which is probably the best status effect in G5.) They are a bit of a hassle to keep around outside of battle mode, though.

[madrigan]

Wow, this is very useful. To make sure I understand, if I shape a fyora, it's always second level at first, and it can't progress past tenth. Is that right? Or does the starting level change based on the relevant shaping skill?

 

Maybe there is a formula for creation starting level?

 

Later:

 

Ok, I see that creations do not always start at their base level. But, still.

 

[Randomizer]

10 is the essence cost for a fyora without the two extra levels of intelligence that allow you to control its actions. For every level of fyora creation and level of fire shaping, you make a more powerful fyora when it's shaped.

[Lyric]

Bah, why didn't Jeff get rid of the unstable creations? almost none used them in the past game and this time it's probably going to be the same.

 

 

 

//offtopic: was there a trick in g4 to make unstable creations "stable", is there one in this game?

[Slawbug]

The level formula is pretty simple. It is

 

Creation's Base Level + Your Skill in that type of shaping + Your knowledge of "Create ___"

 

For example, if you make a Fyora when you have 1 level of Create Fyora and 2 levels of Fire Shaping, it will be 2 + 2 + 1 = 5. Level 5. All creations have an experience cap of 60,000. This means the level cap is typically 60.

 

10 is the essence cost, I'll edit the first post to make that more clear.

[madrigan]

Thanks. Wow, I misunderstood two of the three columns in the chart.

 

So my next question is, I'm fifth level or so and I'm right at the end of the demo, playing a Warrior. I wasn't planning on doing a whole lot of shaping, I was planning to just stab everything to death and put points into healing craft. But I decided I needed more help killing the Presence so I shaped a fyora.

 

Let me see if I can state this correctly: Will there be a difference, in terms of creation abilities/power, between

 

1) a creation shaped right now and then advanced through five levels and

 

2) the same creation shaped when I am five levels higher?

 

Assuming my other stats are unchanged.

[Slawbug]

Yes. Your own level has no impact whatsoever on the level a freshly shaped creation is. However, creations do gain XP and levels along with you (at a slower rate).

 

Creation level affects damage, hit and dodge rate, HP, and energy, in various ways.

[Alorael at Large]

Another minor but noteworthy difference is skill points. If you make a creation now and then gain experience with it until it gains five levels it will have 10 more skill points, which you can use to add to its stats (but that costs essence). If you shape a new creation with five more points in the relevant shaping stat, it will be at the same level but won't have the skill points.

 

—Alorael, who finds the distinction largely academic. He rarely adds many stats to his creations, and you can always boost however high you'd like (and can afford) when you first make the critter. Actually, it's a bit odd that the skill point limit only kicks in after the thing is made.

[Skippy the bush kangaroo]

This game is different - Regeneration Aura makes them "stable".

 

A Shock Trall (with Regeneration Aura) is a very useful creation - 12AP every round and significant missile damage.

[Hume]

Originally Posted By: If vlishes were wishes...

Another minor but noteworthy difference is skill points. If you make a creation now and then gain experience with it until it gains five levels it will have 10 more skill points, which you can use to add to its stats (but that costs essence). If you shape a new creation with five more points in the relevant shaping stat, it will be at the same level but won't have the skill points.

—Alorael, who finds the distinction largely academic. He rarely adds many stats to his creations, and you can always boost however high you'd like (and can afford) when you first make the critter. Actually, it's a bit odd that the skill point limit only kicks in after the thing is made.

No so. Creations have +1 all stats for every starting level. But for levels gain through exp, +1 all stats for every two levels, plus 2 most-likely-useless skill points per level.

[The Lurker]

Mythrael : I thought unstable creations were pretty useless in GF4 too... But after my latest Servile playthrough it simply no longer seems true (although once again, they may not be as efficient as in GF5). Regeneration could keep charged creations fairly stable in GF4 too - of course, they still collapsed as soon as you left the area. Charged Thahds would, sometimes, be useful for quickly taking a tough monster out in Illya Province. Charged Vlish, while expensive, could be useful for Warriors and Shock Troopers due to their slowing ability. Burning Kyshakks seemed to do more damage (especially in long battles) than Wingbolts and even Gazers. Corrupted Rotghroths hit harder than regular Rotghroths, but usually they weren't all that useful. Unstable Firebolts were very, very powerful against enemies with a low fire resistance (like Rotghroths and Rotdhizons). Shock Tralls were the ultimate weapon against Gazers and Eyebeasts. Their stunning ability wasn't all that useful in GF4, due to many bosses being very resistant to Stun.

[Alorael at Large]

Originally Posted By: Hume

No so. Creations have +1 all stats for every starting level. But for levels gain through exp, +1 all stats for every two levels, plus 2 most-likely-useless skill points per level.

I don't think we're disagreeing. The skill points I mean aren't points added to skills like Strength and Intelligence. They're those most-likely-useless points your creations get from leveling up that you have to spend if you want to put more essence into your creation to boost its stats even higher. Those are the only difference between leveling manually and leveling with shaping skills.

—Alorael, who always feels weird about absorbing a creation in order to shape exactly the same thing at a higher level. He's at least grateful that the engine doesn't always add your newest creation to the top or bottom of your party. It seems to fill in the gaps as you make them.

[Slawbug]

Originally Posted By: Hume

No so. Creations have +1 all stats for every starting level. But for levels gain through exp, +1 all stats for every two levels, plus 2 most-likely-useless skill points per level.

Hume, you are incorrect. You are describing how things were in Geneforge One.

In G5, there is no difference between levels creations gain at inception and levels they gain from experience. (Well, except the skill points.) In each case it is +1 to all stats for every 2 levels.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Hume

No so. Creations have +1 all stats for every starting level. But for levels gain through exp, +1 all stats for every two levels

That was only true in Geneforge 1. It hasn't been the case in any game since then.

edit: SLARTYYYYYY

[Alorael at Large]

And I'm illiterate. Huzzah.

 

—Alorael, who invites everyone to ignore what he wrote above, and possibly everything that he writes below.

[Slawbug]

Tee hee. I love it when Thuryl says my name.

[Hume]

Originally Posted By: Slarty

Originally Posted By: Hume

No so. Creations have +1 all stats for every starting level. But for levels gain through exp, +1 all stats for every two levels, plus 2 most-likely-useless skill points per level.

Hume, you are incorrect. You are describing how things were in Geneforge One.

In G5, there is no difference between levels creations gain at inception and levels they gain from experience. (Well, except the skill points.) In each case it is +1 to all stats for every 2 levels.

Sorry for the mistake. Seems that I was overly impressed by the 1 stats for 2 levels thing in Geneforge 1. Forgot about that things have changed.

[The Lifecrafter]

Originally Posted By: Inslartable

The experience cap for your PC is 60,000, which means level 61 is the hardcoded limit. This limit does exist for creations when they gain experience

I found this feature very disappointing. Don't see any resons for such limit. My PC lvl 40 has lvl 60 Rotdhizon and I'm upset knowing it can not grow further . Though I've found a way to expand creatures exp capacity to 65535 which corresponds to lvl 66. This requires modifying program in hex editor.

[Øther]

Although if you cheat and script your making creations level up really high, and make your shaping skills go up really high(Battle, magic, fire) its possible to get an over level 100 creation.

[mikeprichard]

Rezzing this thread to check one last thing on G5: if I read the above correctly, there will be no difference at all (except for the extra skill points) between a creation that is created at creation level 30 (for example) which levels up to level 60 along with the character over a long period, and the same creation type created at creation level 60 from the get-go, right? (The reason I'm asking: I plan to play as a Warrior who only occasionally makes disposable creations, and want to know if - assuming I boost shaping skills - those disposable creations would be weaker than the same creations created earlier and kept/leveled up for a while.) Thanks!

[Slawbug]

Yes, disposable creations will typically be weaker than levelled up creations of the same creation type. In general, your shaping skill simply can't go up as quickly as your creations gain levels.

 

Each game in the series had slightly different dynamics re levelling up creations, and whether or not it was favorable, based on mechanics and the placement of the best creation skills. G1 was very favorable to disposable creations, G3 was very favorable to levelling them up. I forget exactly where G5 falls on this, except that the best creations (War Tralls / Wingbolts) *aren't* available near the start of the game, so it may be less of a big deal either way.

[mikeprichard]

Thanks Slarty. So just to be 100% sure: regardless of the practical difficulty of raising shaping skills high enough to create new creations with levels as good as "long-term" leveled-up creations, the below two Fyoras will have the exact same base stats (again, ignoring the extra available skill points from leveling up Fyora #2), right?

 

1) A Fyora newly created with Fire Shaping 10 at level 12

2) A Fyora previously created with Fire Shaping 1 at level 3, then leveled up to level 12

 

I 'preciate it!

[Sudanna]

To actually use the skill points from leveling up creations, you have to invest just as much essence as it would take to give them that skill point during creation, so they don't really count for much.

[mikeprichard]

Thanks Nalyd, that's what I'd heard. I'm really just interested in how the base stats of a newly made creation of Level X compare to the base stats of a previously made creation that's been around for a while and leveled up to Level X.

[Sudanna]

You've got it right. It doesn't matter where the levels come from, those two level 12 fyoras will be exactly the same.

[Slawbug]

Yeah. The only game where those would have different stats was Geneforge 1.

[mikeprichard]

Great, thanks gents!

[Spukrian]

Putting skillpoints into a creation isn't really worth it since creation stats are capped at 30. Just put those two points into Intelligence but nothing more...