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Thoughts about Avernum 6?


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So which of you guys has been thinking about what you would like to see in Avernum 6?

The only thing I can think of is having 'outdoors' again...

 

Also, what about which ending being used?

Which one would trigger the best setting for Avernum 6?

 

I did have more though up, but I forgot most of it.

So what are your guy's thoughts?

I know there is the whole "Jeff will do with it how he wants", but I'm sure at least some of you have been thinking about it.

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well as to that Jeff will do it how he wants thing, I'm positive he checks the forum for both ideas and to see what his customers want. good business sense ya know.

 

ne way, what i want to see is some of the more versatile spells from Exile, like the fields and barriers, and maybe some others, but i doubt it will happen.

I even emailed Jeff about it a good while back, he said it was highly unlikely.

 

Also, dual wielding, but he said that is also highly unlikely.

 

O well, the game is sure to be more than good enough for me to try to scrounge up enough to buy it.

 

EDIT: on the bright side in reference to that email, it was way back around A5 and he told me he would be making character editors again and he did. Yay!

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Originally Posted By: Iffy
So which of you guys has been thinking about what you would like to see in Avernum 6?
The only thing I can think of is having 'outdoors' again...


No, no! I think it is great the way it is. I love the seamless outdoors. Admittedly didn't work as well in A4 -- the scale problem compared to A1/A2 -- but in A5 it was very successful, I felt.

Thus proving once again you can never please everybody.
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Outdoors on the scale of A3 would be either massive to keep some distances between cities or so small as in A4 where Cotra, Silvar, and Fort Dunvo were almost touching. Going into fight mode and hasted allowed you to race between them before a buff could fade.

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It'd be kind of cool if both the surface and Avernum (not Upper Avernum) were included in one game. However, that's way too much scripting, so I won't get my hopes up.

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I think the Dorikas ending will be used, and we start once again as poor avernites. :p Somewhere along the way we find a passage to the Northern Frontier, then we sneak all the way to Blackchasm Outpost and escape on the surface to finally end the last ancient empire reign.

 

Something like A1 with the new engine, new interface and the Northern Frontier. Also with some more than just a small spiral for the overworld. :3 I'd want to see an avernum having every area in the game since avernum 1. Also Upper Avernum could be used.. somehow... just gotta find some use for it. o_O

 

~DRoD

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First off, just checked the info about Geneforge 5 and saw that the game window will be RESIZEABLE! That was my number one desire for A6, so I'm getting my hopes up. Jeff does a great job, so no doubt it will be well worth playing. Even more so with more vision of the "board".

 

I was kinda ticked that other guys took advantage of my efforts in A5 and took the Empire's throne. Typical Avernum ending. I'd like to get the chance to get that for myself. Either that, or knock off the Empire and start my own "dynasty".

 

Even better, it would be great to battle it out against some armies on my own "side" in mortal combat at the initial "conclusion" to the epic. In A5, that would have meant taking out a few general's armies to assert my own power. The ending in A5 was just servitude to a dude who did not do anything to merit the throne. I'd like to see the opportunity to get it for myself.

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Originally Posted By: Ociporus
Even better, it would be great to battle it out against some armies on my own "side" in mortal combat at the initial "conclusion" to the epic. In A5, that would have meant taking out a few general's armies to assert my own power. The ending in A5 was just servitude to a dude who did not do anything to merit the throne. I'd like to see the opportunity to get it for myself.

 

Who ever heard of a Western that ended with the Man with No Name becoming the mayor?

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Avernum's filled with epic stories of its past heros. You occasionally come across some NPC's that tell you of them.

What of being a "hero" that takes over the government instead of being just the lackey who does it for someone else? Of course, you could always refuse to do so.

 

Read: Alexander the Great. Forged a great empire.

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Originally Posted By: Nioca
By that logic, Avernum's Sci-fi as well. I mean, there's science in it, and it is fiction...


I'm not talking about the narrative trappings so much as the political and moral messages and overall outlook on how the world works, which are precisely in line with your average Clint Eastwood film.
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Originally Posted By: Evnissyen
The lone hero rides into town and kills all the bad guys while the Sheriff cowers in fear, in other words, right?


Pretty much. Trust nobody but yourself and your six-shooter, as Boots put it back when he used to post here.
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I want:

 

- summons. Good, quite strong, usable in fight summons. Not the ones dying a turn after summoning. Something similar to Simulacrum spell from Exile II. Now, there is no place for playing summoner/druid/alike, because summons are too weak and useless.

 

- Riddles. like in Exile II Erica's Tower, or sleeping Vahnatai locations, where you have to find and type in an answer, and not to pick one of, like, two, if any.

 

- Exile dialog system ;] With words typed into a text box, not dialog options chosen from list. That way was much funnier, gave way more options for riddles, side stories, etc, and made game sooo different from other titles.

 

- Something new. No story running around [good | evil] [Empire | Vahnataii]. Or, if so, with some new ideas, like... new ones, you know. New areas? Dunno.

 

- Witty humour laugh

 

- hidden passages in walls. Like in Exile.

 

- Scry Monster spell. Like in Exile. I really liked when my team mage fireballed anyone who even scratched newly encountered spieces before he could scry it. I really liked this spell. Was fun.

 

- some other things I will mention when they come back to my mind. I forgot now.

 

Maybe you will just tell that I want Exile back, and not new Avernum. Maybe. But I really think that some ideas in Exile series were great, and are unneccessarily (sp?) abandoned in Avernum.

 

Cheers!

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As I finished up my first complete run through Avernum 5 (I did every side dungeon, it took me about 2 months since I purchased it)... I'd love an Achievements page. Once you completed the game, it would pop up a new option on the Menu called Achievements and show you info like:

 

Game finished: 7/29/08 at 18:06.

Hours Played: 72

Characters: 4

Difficulty: Normal

Gold Left: 28012

Ending: Empire Loyalist

Playstyle: Completionist

 

That would give you a big incentive to replay.

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I agree with Catapult on the dialogue system... I find Exile's type-in conversations to be... damn, I'm about to use that phrase again... resist... umm... bothersome? Yes. They were bothersome to the utmost. I mean... "job"? "name"? So I'm to guess that the whole dialogue system is a secret? I need to guess what questions to ask each person, not knowing if it's the correct question to get a desired response, if in fact there is such a desired response forthcoming from that person?

 

...But I rant....

 

As for riddles... I don't think they're really Spiderweb material. For other games they're nice... but... I much prefer if Jeff concentrated on story and character.

 

...Hmm... I don't like being so negative.

 

EDIT: To change my reference to Catapult. Must be careful referring to certain people by their "first" name.

 

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Originally Posted By: Suneun
As I finished up my first complete run through Avernum 5 (I did every side dungeon, it took me about 2 months since I purchased it)... I'd love an Achievements page. Once you completed the game, it would pop up a new option on the Menu called Achievements and show you info like:

Game finished: 7/29/08 at 18:06.
Hours Played: 72
Characters: 4
Difficulty: Normal
Gold Left: 28012
Ending: Empire Loyalist
Playstyle: Completionist

That would give you a big incentive to replay.

That's actually a neat idea. Though it might be annoying to Jeff to put it in there.

Besides, it's unlikely Jeff will even see this thread.
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Quote:
EDIT: To change my reference to Catapult. Must be careful referring to certain people by their "first" name.


I take it you originally called me Pig? It's quite okay. I actually prefer to be called Pig or Piggy. "Catapult" is just way too formal-sounding to me. XD
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Originally Posted By: Evnissyen
I agree with Catapult on the dialogue system... I find Exile's type-in conversations to be... damn, I'm about to use that phrase again... resist... umm... bothersome? Yes. They were bothersome to the utmost. I mean... "job"? "name"? So I'm to guess that the whole dialogue system is a secret? I need to guess what questions to ask each person, not knowing if it's the correct question to get a desired response, if in fact there is such a desired response forthcoming from that person?



To be honest, the dialog system is one of my biggest disappointments switching from Exile to A5.... I loved having to remember random references that other people said, and having to deduce what the key words in someones responses are. Now, all I have are a couple pre-hashed-out sentences..... frown

I'd have to agree with Hobson on this, and also on the need for wicked awesome spells like simalicrum/capture soul and also srcy monster. I mean, Scry was the best way to avoid fireballing a fire-resistant S.O.B. a couple times....
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You couldn't do much with the way the Exile dialog system worked. Also, it was like this for the first four Avernum games too, not just A5.

 

Another thing is that those message things that you get (Like when something is described, not in the text box on the bottom) are handled through the dialog scripts in A5.

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I'd like to see return of Mass Haste-spell (casting haste, end. armor, protection, war blessing, augmentation, prism. shield and steel skin to whole party takes so much time that 1-2 chars might lose for example haste after last member of party has been "spelled" or f.e haste vanishes middle of battle) and Fireball-spell being area spell since to get 1st area spell (and only usefull besides Lightning Spray unless has alot spell points to spend) takes a while and sometimes area spell would be helpful at start too. Smite should be lvl 3 spell since otherwise pure Priest doesn't have much to do in battle except cure/bless/etc other members.

 

What comes to storyline there are some "leftovers" from prev. Avernum's like Dragons from A3 (yeah I know Dragons were killed during Heroes were hibernating but so what? I'm sure Avernum and Empire Land has alot unexplored Dungeons).

 

Enemies: Their appearance should be changed so some of them (Dragon, Chitrach Queen and Pit Crawler aren't same species as far as I know) but those noname enemies are just fine and its not nice to walk middle of ambush like Rats since they all have haste by Mother/Dad Nature and also have poisoning/aciding-ability.

 

Less Dungeoncamping would be nice too since I think most of my Avernum playtime I have spent underground (edit: underground's underground especially since Avernum is underground) killing all kinda enemies.

 

Resting option would be nice too to get spellpoints back especially if nearest Town (friendly) or Inn is faraway (yeah that's why Enegy Elixirs/Potions exists but I wanna save those to Boss-battles and getting First Aid so high that Spellcasters get from 0 to 150 after big battle might affect other skills they need).

 

No more dilemmas like Gladwell's geas (and his quests after geases) or stealing some Artifact from its righteous owner to some1 who wants it for some purpose (no idea what for Gladwell wants all that stuff but I guess he wants to rule the world like other lunatics).

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Spell line specializations and more spells. I'm talking about stuff like a Fire Mage, or an Ice Mage. As Hobson mentioned, a Summoner Mage. Each specialization limits your use of other magic, but unlocks unique spells specific to your choice.

 

Of course you would need a lot of new spells for this, but it would make spell casters much more unique, instead of just...buy all the best spells and keep upgrading them.

 

Oh yes and no more Geneforge style stuff, at least zoom it out a little its like A5 came from a console or something.

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Originally Posted By: Chroniss
Spell line specializations and more spells. I'm talking about stuff like a Fire Mage, or an Ice Mage. As Hobson mentioned, a Summoner Mage. Each specialization limits your use of other magic, but unlocks unique spells specific to your choice.

Of course you would need a lot of new spells for this, but it would make spell casters much more unique, instead of just...buy all the best spells and keep upgrading them.

Oh yes and no more Geneforge style stuff, at least zoom it out a little its like A5 came from a console or something.


OMG, please do not zoom it out. It is fine as it is. On the older Avernums I feel like I need a monocle or something to see what is going on.

I would like specialist mages too, but I think it's unlikely that Jeff will make such a big change in this game. On the other hand, perhaps he could adapt the battle discipline system to allow some degree of magical specialization.
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Quote:
Spell line specializations and more spells. I'm talking about stuff like a Fire Mage, or an Ice Mage. As Hobson mentioned, a Summoner Mage. Each specialization limits your use of other magic, but unlocks unique spells specific to your choice.

Of course you would need a lot of new spells for this, but it would make spell casters much more unique, instead of just...buy all the best spells and keep upgrading them.


The "specialization" thing is actually one of the things I like most about the Geneforge series. Though the exact adaptation of Geneforge's skill system may not be ideal, the direction would be a great improvement for Avernum IMO.
Plus, a large part of the community has plead for a wider Exile-style range of spells in Avernum ever since, and this new potential system could make it possible for a lot of spells to be highly differentiated and yet useful (unlike many Exile spells).

Quote:
No more dilemmas like Gladwell's geas (and his quests after geases) or stealing some Artifact from its righteous owner to some1 who wants it for some purpose (no idea what for Gladwell wants all that stuff but I guess he wants to rule the world like other lunatics).


Are you kidding? What you talk about is the best novelty Avernum 4 and 5 brought with them! To be honest, it's the only thing that kept me going through the otherwise disappointingly linear plot and gameplay of A5. If A6 was to combine the strong plot and feeling of A2 with A5's complexity, I'd be dancing in circles!


Edit: Corrected some mistakes. English can be so exhausting.
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I'd like to see the return of the different cell scales (the A1-A3 indoors/outdoors system.)That really gave it the feel of the epic journey, although at times the distances seemed rather ludicrous. (80 miles in under a day?) A few mile walk from town to town to dungeon seems rather sad, if not pitiful.

 

But mostly, I'd really like the system from A1-A3 back. It flowed incredible nicely for me. I'm a laid back guy, who has some skill with his fingers, so I liked playing it primarily with the keyboard, only rarely using the mouse. But in A4 and A5, it favored the mouse, for checking containers, speaking to people, etc etc.

 

And also, I'd like for the camera to stay fixed on the lead or active character, like it used too. I really dislike how when you move, the camera stays still, and only recenters on the character when you close enough to the edge of the screen that your having a sword shoved in your face before you know what's going on. And lastly, I should not be forced into combat every time a fruit fly gets too close to me. If I see a goblin that has no ranged attacks and I can kill in one swing, I like to just waltz up and kill it with my lead character, not go into combat mode and waste so much time and energy working through the whole process. Honestly, I couldn't play A4 and A5 more then an hour each, the differences in control were so debilitating. I say make Avernum back into Avernum, and not some horrible mutation of Avernum and Geneforge. They each works best the way they were built to work.

 

Also, I'd like to see more of Exile's features that wrre left out. Particularly the spells that were dropped. (I still mourn the loss of my dear fireball.) And more skills and weapon types, some things that will let me individualize my characters better. And I agree about mage specialization. It would greatly add to the replay value.

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@Vrek:

 

Most things you bring up have already been discussed countless times, and will most probably never be changed back. However, I've never come up with the idea of simply making combat optional again the way it was in A1-3... why the heck didn't I? Omg, It's so obvious. That really bugged me in A4+5 - or, more fittingly, i MEGALOATHED it.

 

How about that, Jeff? Huh? Huh?? Oh, come on, give us a treat will ya!

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Originally Posted By: Rent-an-Ihrno
@Vrek:

Most things you bring up have already been discussed countless times, and will most probably never be changed back. However, I've never come up with the idea of simply making combat optional again the way it was in A1-3... why the heck didn't I? Omg, It's so obvious. That really bugged me in A4+5 - or, more fittingly, i MEGALOATHED it.

How about that, Jeff? Huh? Huh?? Oh, come on, give us a treat will ya!


Yeah, I find the first three games almost unplayable. The graphics are tiny and I can't tell some of the creature types apart. There's no pathfinding. Training is uncessarily difficult. I don't like the inside/outside thing -- I like remaining at the same scale throughout. I don't like worrying about food. If Jeff returned to the old engine I wouldn't buy A6. And this is what I've said every time this has come up, so anyway. The only thing I don't like in the new games is the initiative system in A5, where you can't cast and then move.

In what way was combat optional in the earlier games? I don't remember that from my attempts at A1-3.
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You weren't forced into combat mode, you could just walk past or fight outside of combat mode. This was probably added so that people wouldn't see an enemy while auto-moving(You, know with the mouse) and get the crap beat out of them because they couldn't stop.

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Originally Posted By: Yelbis Eceer Nalyd
You weren't forced into combat mode, you could just walk past or fight outside of combat mode. This was probably added so that people wouldn't see an enemy while auto-moving(You, know with the mouse) and get the crap beat out of them because they couldn't stop.


I did notice that, that I could fight without going into combat mode. I'm not sure if it changed anything about the fights. It's true that it would be nice to be able to sneak past more monsters. It would be another tactical option. But if that's going to be in the game I'd like a stealth skill.
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Fighting outside of combat mode did have some practical differences. The main one (that you might want to take advantage of) being that you and the enemies only got one space of movement per round, which helps in some situations (mostly, that it took distant enemies more time to approach).

 

And, of, course, the somewhat dubious tactic of walking back three steps in combat mode, leaving combat and letting the enemy move forward one step, repeat.

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People, this is not about fighting tactics. It's about choosing when to enter combat mode yourself, instead of being forced into it every couple of seconds. Though it might not sound like it, this freedom makes combat mode far less annoying since you don't have to switch it on and off as much and you don't constantly get stopped in your tracks.

 

If anything, fighting outside combat mode is convenient vs. enemies that are not to be taken too seriously, especially in 1 tile broad corridors. It doesn't give you any advantages concerning speed of "stealth".

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Originally Posted By: Vrek
I'd like to see the return of the different cell scales (the A1-A3 indoors/outdoors system.)That really gave it the feel of the epic journey, although at times the distances seemed rather ludicrous. (80 miles in under a day?) A few mile walk from town to town to dungeon seems rather sad, if not pitiful.

But mostly, I'd really like the system from A1-A3 back. It flowed incredible nicely for me. I'm a laid back guy, who has some skill with his fingers, so I liked playing it primarily with the keyboard, only rarely using the mouse. But in A4 and A5, it favored the mouse, for checking containers, speaking to people, etc etc.


Lovin' it. A1-3 felt super Epic, this gigantic, organic, underground world. A4 and 5 just don't seem to capture that worldly feel (A5 is still my favorite though, the story is fantastic).

I also preferred the A1-3 keyboard system I could fly through with the keyboard.
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Vrek & Rent:

As Nalyd already explained, returning to the optional fight-mode system would necessitate returning to the clomp-clomp-clomp system which I've found utterly tedious, not to mention slow. In A3 you need to clomp-clomp-clomp across the entire town map of Fort Emergence, through several doors, down several hallways and through yet another door to meet the merchant or the trainer. Then you have to type T and then A (in the case of the merchant). Much easier if you just point to that spot on the map and watch your characters zoom there, right? And then when you get there just click on the merchant.

 

Also... to expand on what Madrigan said, if A6 returned to the old system then I think the only people who would buy it would be those who feel nostalgic for Nethergate-A3. Not a good marketing strategy, as somebody pointed out not too long ago... I don't remember who.

 

Despite the fact that the gameplay in A4 & A5 is significantly refined (not to mention the graphics and animation improvements), I can understand your affection for the optional fight-mode system... but in Nethergate and the original Avernum trilogy I feel like I'm exploiting the system and only my fighter is seeing action; the other characters are really useless for most of the time. They're only useful for large-scale fights; otherwise they just get in the way. (And it's annoying having to hit that Peace button in order to get out of fight mode.) The way I see it: if I have 3 characters in my party then I've chosen 3 characters for a reason. I reduce from 4 characters because I find that only 3 are necessary, and this allows me to level up more quickly. With all characters meeting with every fight: strategy becomes a team effort rather than just slogging through tunnels with your fighter smashing your enemies as they appear and the mage & priest being used most of the time as nothing more than pack mules.

 

The fact that the auto-combat-mode system helps keep you from being surprised (and gives you the upper hand if you've trained in Dexterity and Quick Strike) I suppose might be seen as good or bad.

 

I suppose it could be programmed into A6 that the user is allowed to switch to the clomp-clomp-clomp and the optional fight mode... although I'm not sure how much extra programming this would necessitate.

 

I don't want to suggest you're wrong to prefer one style over another; we all have our preferences... I just feel that this stuff is stuff of the past. Life goes on. Personally, I hope that A6 has a totally different interface. I'm quite happy already that G5 will look rather different from G4. As I've said before: I don't feel that Jeff has any obligation to stick to a certain interface or graphical style throughout an entire series, any more than a serial writer should be obligated to adhere to one style throughout an entire series should he or she tire of that style and come up with a better one.

 

The only thing I agree with is that both Avernum & Geneforge should have more spells... but I want new spells as well. I do not want the games to move backward.

 

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Originally Posted By: Earth2025
I'd like to see return of Mass Haste-spell (casting haste, end. armor, protection, war blessing, augmentation, prism. shield and steel skin to whole party takes so much time that 1-2 chars might lose for example haste after last member of party has been "spelled" or f.e haste vanishes middle of battle) and Fireball-spell being area spell since to get 1st area spell (and only usefull besides Lightning Spray unless has alot spell points to spend) takes a while and sometimes area spell would be helpful at start too. Smite should be lvl 3 spell since otherwise pure Priest doesn't have much to do in battle except cure/bless/etc other members.


This was actually one of the things that I found to be the most "broken" about A5. A large fraction of the battles could be trivially won by spending a few minutes buffing the party... one solution might be all-in-one spells like Earth2025 describes, but another more interesting solution might be to limit the number of concurrent spell buffs to, say, three. (You could say the spells start interfering beyond that, or something.) As an added bonus, caster mana starts lasting longer when you aren't constantly buffing, allowing for longer dungeon crawls.
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Why, though? The buffs all cost spell points, and the player uses them -- or at least I did -- only to the extent that each spell is found to be useful, in the given situation, since it's tedious to keep casting 5 or 6 buffs on a party for every encounter. So long as your enemies' stats are strengthened in accordance to your level and assumed spell capabilities, I'm not sure I see where this falls into the area of abuse.

 

Perhaps with the Haste spell you might have a point, but hell, Haste is so much fun. I suppose if it doubled your AP only every other turn then that might remove its near-game-killing effect.

 

Then again... a number of fights seem to be near unwinnable if you aren't using Haste... at least on HARD. Well, not exactly near unwinnable, but far more difficult. Thus: an example of your opponents' strength being raised to stand up to your capabilities.

 

Also, isn't there already an all-in-one spell in A5? I don't remember offhand which it is, but I'm sure I remember it.

 

EDIT: Earth: I myself, I think, have mentioned before having tended to find it strange that, in the beginning, the priest, rather than the mage, possesses the most powerful offensive spell. You have a point about the skill level except that I always make sure my priest has enough skill to obtain Smite. At any rate, perhaps its strength should be lowered, at least in the beginning. Also...

 

On the notion of Gladwell: Why do you dislike the dilemmas? They're one of the best parts of A5. Actually... I think my opinionatedness is beginning to inform me that Gladwell might just be my favorite part of the game. He's an interesting character. He also deserved more development. (In retrospect he probably deserved more development in A4 as well, but I suspect in that game Jeff hadn't yet decided on any elaborate plans for Gladwell... then again: How do >I< know?) The dilemmas add a lot of dimension to the game; plus it affects to a great extent the game's replay value. I'm looking forward to playing the game again, one of these days, without Gladwell's geas, and the next time around I'll also be considering the Anama... short-term, of course.

 

CONTINUE EDIT: I've already started my new duo some time ago. Two Nephilim, a male and female, both divinely touched. I figure: Demigod types are more believable in hero stories (after all, that's often how hero myths go -- if the hero isn't divinely blessed then he (always a he) is assisted by somebody who is. Odysseus was assisted by goddess Athena... Jason was assisted by sorceress Medea. Both characters were smart and capable men (Odysseus by wit, Jason by charisma/diplomacy), but were purely mortal. Also... in myths, heroes typically work alone but when they work together it's never more than a twosome. (Gilgamesh comes immediately to mind, as well as the Dierdriu story (Noisiu and his brother).) A male-female couple makes even more sense. My new characters' initiatory battle under Blackchasm Outpost worked out well for them, so I'll be keeping them.

 

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Originally Posted By: Duskwolf

This was actually one of the things that I found to be the most "broken" about A5. A large fraction of the battles could be trivially won by spending a few minutes buffing the party... one solution might be all-in-one spells like Earth2025 describes, but another more interesting solution might be to limit the number of concurrent spell buffs to, say, three. (You could say the spells start interfering beyond that, or something.) As an added bonus, caster mana starts lasting longer when you aren't constantly buffing, allowing for longer dungeon crawls.


Mass buffing I needed only on few battles before Highground and all those battles were against Bosses (and Lark's quests and unstable masses) and most of time when I buffed party I used only Haste, War Blessing and Shielding or just Haste.
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