Greatest Avernite?

[madrigan]

Who is the greatest non-PC Avernite in history? Who is their George Washington/Audie Murphy/Abe Lincoln/Martin Luther King, jr./Amelia Earhart/Albert Einstein/Babe Ruth?

 

I've only been playing since A4, but I'm still inclined to say it's Erika Redmark.

 

As a followup, are the PCs from any of the games actually greater than any NPC?

[Slawbug]

Erika is the most obvious candidate. The others would be Micah and the rest of the Five.

 

As far as PCs go, the E/A 2 PCs might count .

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Erika, despite practically exiling herself from the rest of Avernum by moving to the distant Northwest, was probably the most proactive citizen in Avernum's history. Micah was the first king, and thus gets points for establishing a government in caves filled with people who hate government, but it was always Erika that kept it safe while he concerned himself with the bureaucracy. Erika helped make the caves habitable, and she helped start and win the Empire War. In the end, she gave her life in her nation's defense, how can you argue against that?

 

If Micah is the Washington of Avernum then Erika would be the Jefferson. I personally think Jefferson did more for America than Washington, and I feel the same way about Erika. Washington always tried to keep the peace within the government, and was loved for it, while Jefferson was sort of the first partisan ever. Still, being a partisan, he got things done, and Erika was the same way.

[Ephesos]

I'll agree that Erika arguably made the biggest sacrifice for the nation, but she also had a habit of putting it in incredible danger. While you could argue that she was in effect responsible for Avernum's independence, she also set up the chain of events that nearly led to its destruction. And her motives in planning the assassination are arguably less than pure. So what with the taking huge risks that affect an entire nation for personal revenge... she's not much of a team player, is my point.

 

My nomination would probably be Bon-Ihrno, assuming he's eligible. Bon-Ihrno was one of the few Vahnatai willing to actually listen to the fledgling nation's pleas, and his intervention in Formello is arguably what saved Avernum during the war. Even when Rentar-Ihrno's revenge wrought havoc on the surface, Bon-Ihrno continued to argue against her, and he ultimately paid for his resistance with his life. Personally, I found that Bon-Ihrno's death in A3 was one of the more gripping points in that game's story and in the whole trilogy, and it was one of the things that inspired me to actually finish slogging through Rentar's Keep.

 

I also considered Motrax, but he doesn't contribute quite enough to the story. His lot is simply a short tragic arc.

[madrigan]

Quote:

Originally written by Ephesos:

My nomination would probably be Bon-Ihrno, assuming he's eligible. Bon-Ihrno was one of the few Vahnatai willing to actually listen to the fledgling nation's pleas, and his intervention in Formello is arguably what saved Avernum during the war.

Maybe Bon is Avernum's Marquis de Lafayette.

[Rent-an-Ihrno]

there are many heroes in avernum worth mentioning, especially people like erika and bon-ihrno. while it's quite easily said who contributed how much to the independance and safety of avernum, it's really hard to determine who was the "better soul", so to speak. i don't think erika is as egocentric as many think, and that she did everything she did for the sake of vengeance. and after all, in this context there are probably countless avernum citizens and soldiers who could fill the spot, but will never find their names written in any history book.

 

so pick whomever you want - just don't you dare choose rentar-ihrno!! (for those who don't know: my nick is an everlasting insult to that insidious woman... spineless creature)

[olop4444]

Rentar-Ihrno.

Just kidding. I actually choose Erika.

[Alorael at Large]

It's interesting that almost everyone of importance is a mage. Besides Micah, the major players are, in rough order, probably Erika, Solberg, Rone, and Patrick. Kelner might be working his way on to the list in his quiet way.

 

—Alorael, who finds it telling that there are no non-human Avernites of true note. Bon-Ihrno doesn't count; he's definitely a friendly foreigner.

[Micawber]

Clearly the most significant Avernite is Townsend.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Quote:

madrigan:

Quote:

Ephesos:
My nomination would probably be Bon-Ihrno, assuming he's eligible.

Maybe Bon is Avernum's Marquis de Lafayette.

That was exactly what I was thinking when I read what Ephesos wrote. One certainly wouldn't call Lafayette the greatest American, no matter how pivotal he was.

[Goldengirl]

1. Tor Gunston - The singlemost important deterrent to crime, a bastion of equality. Through him, all started off equally, and with a fair chance, both coming from and leaving to the Surface. Furthermore, his pioneering in farming during his time near Fort Draco was a benefit to all Avernum. Also, his involvement in Fort Avernum post-Reconciliation was pivotal to the project.

2. King Micah - Founder and uniter of the country, plus what you lot said.

3. Erika Redmark - You lot said it better than me. Though she's not that much behind Micah.

4. Bon-Ihrno - Though technically not eligible, his work has done so much for Avernum. It was because of him that Avernum won the war, it was because of him that the Olgai Tribe schizmed. Everything after that... in A4 basically, was because of his prior actions.

5. Rentar-Ihrno - Though technically not eligible, her work has done so much for Avernum. It was because of her that Avernum won the war, it was because of her that Avernum got land on the Surface, it was because of her that the Olgai Tribe schizmed. Everything after that... not so good.

[Slawbug]

If we add as a requirement some level of fame -- that is, that at least one person in Avernum with no personal relationship to them talks about them -- you can't really have a national hero nobody's heard of -- the list gets shorter.

 

Micah, Erika, Patrick, Rone, and Solberg can all stay, as can the Empire War Heroes. Besides them we have lists of famous non-humans and non-Avernites, who don't fit the bill (Bon-Ihrno and Prazac come to mind); talked-about Avernites who haven't done anything terribly heroic (Starrus, Houghton, Linda); and non-famous Avernites who mostly haven't done anything heroic either, like Tor or Kelner.

[Alorael at Large]

Kelner isn't talked about much, but I think several other Avernites (not including Carol) mention Tor. And realistically he should be famous. Everyone who's exiled has to talk to him!

 

Now let's talk PCs. The A1 party finds the surface, an achievement that doesn't lead anywhere once the Empire invades and that seems to be ignored in favor of Upper Avernum. They kill Hawthorne, which probably makes them friends until it sparks the Empire War. They stop Grah-Hoth (again), saving the world. They're probably controversial for their second achievement, but they're heroes. Not of Erika's stature, certainly, and probably not even of the other three of the Five/Four, but they're heroes.

 

The A2 party is a bunch of war heroes, pure and simple. They're also diplomats. Yep, they're literal poster children, as I'd expect their likenesses with slogans to be plastered all over Avernum as propaganda.

 

The A3 party is mostly professionals. They're notable as early visitors to the surface and for their role in brokering peace with Prazac, but that's more likely to earn them drinks in a bar and official commendation than eternal gratitude from Avernites. The surface is, in fact, far more likely to think of them as real heroes. They save Avernum from Grah-Hoth yet again, but by now it's probably not even interesting anymore.

 

A4's party probably gets hero status again. They're not A2 stature, since I think the Empire and Garzahd are scarier than even the shades, but they do stop the shade plague and Rentar-Ihrno. That's worth something.

 

A5's party is not even Avernite. Nobody loves them.

 

—Alorael, who would like to think that the A1 party fled to the surface, the A2 party gets to be big war heroes, the A3 party gets shoved into paper-pushing desk jobs, and the A4 party gets killed by vengeful vahnatai assassins. It's not over Rentar-Ihrno, actually. It's just that they starred in A4.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

I'm going to have to disagree on the Tor point. A novel idea, sure, but it is highly unlikely that he was the only one to hold the position of official greeter and even less likely that he himself thought up the idea of giving everyone exiled an equal start. More points for Micah, I'd say.

 

Also, if we were to count Vahnatai, I don't think Bon was a very effective one. His heart was in the right place, but human-vahnatai relations were always and are still crap, probably worse than ever now with the murder of Rentar, a vahnatai who actually did more than anyone other individual of her species to help Avernum in the Empire War.

[Slawbug]

Tor wasn't even the official greeter. Somebody else had that job. He wasn't the official information-provider either; that was somebody else. All he did was hand out knives and food to anyone who stepped into his office. His later exploits: separating from his wife, remarrying and buying a farm, then selling it to the farmhands and abandoning his second wife. He was also a supply officer and a mechanic. Where's the heroism?

 

I suppose Tor does have the name recognition factor, but does anyone excluding his various wives and co-workers mention him? No.

[Dikiyoba]

Tor sounds like Avernum's first celebrity. All he needs now is to go into rehab for skribbane abuse.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Rent-an-Ihrno]

As for PCs, I pick the A2 party as my favs, followed by the A1 party. The others should go make schnitzel.

How great it would be if you could play the various Avernums (without cheating), and then merge the parties into one game/whatever and let them fight each other... or something.

[ĐªгŦĦ Єяŋϊε]

how about X?

[Alorael at Large]

X is probably the Andrew Fire or Craig Mello of Avernum. Do you know who they are? Probably not, but their work on RNAi provided a critical advance in modern genetics.

 

X is like that. He's not a hero or a celebrity, except maybe in the rarified field of academic magic. He's just smart and bizarre. He doesn't do anything.

 

—Alorael, who supposes all that will change when he finishes his Warmaster Golem Mk IV "Anvil" and shows the world just what magic can do.

[madrigan]

Quote:

Originally written by Ologin:
X is probably the Andrew Fire or Craig Mello of Avernum. Do you know who they are? Probably not, but their work on RNAi provided a critical advance in modern genetics.

X is like that. He's not a hero or a celebrity, except maybe in the rarified field of academic magic. He's just smart and bizarre. He doesn't do anything.

I don't know. If the Avernum Post was publishing a "100 Greatest Avernites" list they would have the greatest minds on there.

[Tyranicus]

Solberg, he helped save Avernum from Grah-Hoth 3 times (once by helping with the actual deed, twice by dispensing necessary information). He also imparted important information that led to the defeat of Garzahd.

[olop4444]

Maybe the general of the Avernite army in A2?

[Rent-an-Ihrno]

Quote:

Originally written by Tyranicus:
Solberg, he helped save Avernum from Grah-Hoth 3 times (once by helping with the actual deed, twice by dispensing necessary information). He also imparted important information that led to the defeat of Garzahd.

Oh, come on. Not that I don't like Solberg, but giving someone information isn't really a legendary deed, is it? As well as for the avernite generals - though many of them may have been very competent, none could actually outsmart Limoncelli or, well, do anything without the PCs. Considering all the hints and comments NPCs give you on this subject, I even think mages had more responsibility in Avernum's strategic successes than generals or captains.

[Slawbug]

Also, while I'm sure Solberg did do stuff to help out in the first war against Grah-Hoth, there are three wizards consistently credited with sealing him away -- Erika, Patrick, and Rone. Not Solberg.

 

And in E3, when he could have helped most, by keeping Linda away, he failed to do so.