Blades of Geneforge

[The Lord of the Rings]

Any ideas/suggestions? I have a few...

[Kelandon]

That Jeff wait until he's done releasing GFs before he releases BoG. That is, I don't want to see a GF4 come after a BoG, because that would just be annoying.

[Learned Noremac]

I don't understand. If he were to make a GF4 it should be before BoG or he shouldn't make one at all? Sorry I'm just not sure what you mean.

[Kelandon]

The former. As opposed to what he did with the Avernums.

[Donald Hebb]

*Averna

 

I honestl don't care about BoG much. If Jeff shows us that it can be used for anything more than wanna-be pokemon quasi-scifi, I might be vaguely interested. As it stands, though, I don't think anyone other than machine fetishists or herptophiles could really swallow a pill like that.

[tbg10101]

as long as there is an editor for GF i m fine . . .

[Kaos]

blades of geneforge should come before geneforge 4 because exile games 1,2,3, blades and that is the same avernum.

[*i]

Right now my primary criticism is the lack of default graphics because of the intrinsic difficulty with making them. Every GF game has increased the number available. Hopefully, we will eventually get more, but as it stands now, there is not much we can really do outside basic GF adventures.

 

Quote:

blades of geneforge should come before geneforge 4 because exile games 1,2,3, blades and that is the same avernum.

Yes, just because it has been done this way in the past, means we should do it now even though the circumstances are vastly different.

[Lilith]

Stareye, since I know that as an admin you're bound by a stronger code of conduct than we regular members, please allow me to call Kaos a gibbering moron on your behalf.

[Toenail Returns]

The thing is, Blades of Exile was the first "Blades" game. Because Jeff re-did the Exile Trilogy to make them have better graphics, he naturally made Blades Of Avernum. If he makes a Blades of Geneforge (shudder) he'd probably have to make a Blades of Nethergate and other absurd things.

[Jaiaroth]

I, quite frankly, agree with Holy Toenail Remix.

[Drakefyre]

I don't follow your logic at all. First of all, there will be at least one more GF game after GF3 before BoG. GF2 and GF3 were already made with a GF Campaign Editor, which means that BoG basically already exists.

 

And I for one would welcome BoG, since the Geneforge engine allows some things that would be impossible in Avernum, but I am a bit worried that the GF engine doesn't allow for much expansion beyond the shaper world.

[The1Kobra]

Well, I think that a BOG should be made ASAP. (Moslty because I want to make some scenerios, but knowing my level of competance they will be rated 0 out of 5) It doesn't really matter what order it comes in. As for a blades of nethergate, I get the impression it wasn't as popular. Either that, or that the plot ends there, Its just hard to make a sequel to that kind of game.

As for plotline.... um... ok.. Some odd scenerio where someone takes active action against the shapers, or that the shapers fell and you became a mercenary.. or.... I don't know, I think thats the editor's problem, not mine.

(Oh, Drakefyre, I never saw any editors for GF2, besides the character editors, no scenerio editors. So, if im missing something please tell me, thanks!)

[Kelandon]

Quote:

Originally written by Drakefyre:
GF2 and GF3 were already made with a GF Campaign Editor, which means that BoG basically already exists.

I don't suppose you've remembered since the last time that you mentioned this where you you heard this. I've been able to find statements from Jeff that he wanted to make a GF scenario editor — he said this for GF1 — but not that he ever did.

Not that I doubt you, but just that I wonder how I am so out of the loop.

[The Almighty Doer of Stuff]

The problem with releasing a scenario editor and then releasing another game in the series afterward is that by releasing a scenario editor, he is basically giving us the world he created. Then, by releasing another game afterward, there's a very good chance that what he releases will directly contradict what the scenarios say. The fact that he is releasing an Avernum 4 after over 200 BoE scenarios have already been released is what is angering the BoE/A community right now, in addition to his lack of support for the community.

[Drakefyre]

There was definitely a screenshot from the campaign editor either in an interview or on a screenshot page. Besides that evidence, the campaign editor does seem to exist, and most beta testers will tell you that there is some sort of editor making the games, not just pure coding.

[*i]

Quote:

Originally written by The1Kobra:
Well, I think that a BOG should be made ASAP. (Moslty because I want to make some scenerios, but knowing my level of competance they will be rated 0 out of 5)

The GF Campaign Editor has many of the same features as BoA. It does not have the "real time" animation, but meh. If you want to download scenarios, get Blades of Avernum. There is really no need for a GF Campaign Editor right now. Also, Jeff has clearly stated he will not release another scenario editor for a VERY long time (think 5 years time scale) because of the sheer daunting effort it takes.

Yes, GF does have a primitive campaign editor. It is not ready for the level of a consumer product. There are many clues to this effect if you look at the graphics file. You will see a lot of "symbolic" graphics representing actual pieces of terrain. Besides that, Jeff has stated that one exists somewhere. Don't look for it, because it is not public, and you probably would not want to use it even if you found it.

[Fort]

Making scenarios and campaigns for Geneforge would be no less difficult than making BoA ones.

[The1Kobra]

Perhaps, then again, its all based on how the scenerio editor is made, so it might be easy to understand. Of course, it could be nearly impossible to use the thing. Who knows, he hasn't made the thing yet.

[Kelandon]

Quote:

Originally written by Garrison:
Making scenarios and campaigns for Geneforge would be no less difficult than making BoA ones.

Yes, and he has stated publicly that making the BoA scenario editor was extremely difficult and mentally taxing.

[Icshi]

I for one hope that Jeff makes as many Geneforge games as possible before creating Blades of Geneforge. I'd be more than happy if it's even 7 years before it comes about. We'll be fully occupied with BoA for quite some time, and Jeff really doesn't need to bang his brains out creating another scenario editor so soon!

[Masked Man of Inscrutability]

Please excuse me for my ignorance, but:

 

Is it really such a big deal with Jeff releases an Avernum (or, perhaps, in the future, a Geneforge) game after he has released an editor? I know people claim they're part of a community that has created its own history, but in a certain sense, so what? Can't they just enjoy the new game as if it were simply a new scenario? Surely many scenarios have been built with information that conflicts with other scenarios - but if they're well-made and fun, does it matter?

 

I'm just confused as to the active hostility toward Jeff that seems to boil to the surface every now and then, and usually for reasons that seem fairly irrational to me.

 

I don't mean this post as a flame against those who hold low opinions of Jeff. I'm just curious as to their motivation.

 

Z

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Zorro:
Please excuse me for my ignorance, but:

Is it really such a big deal with Jeff releases an Avernum (or, perhaps, in the future, a Geneforge) game after he has released an editor? I know people claim they're part of a community that has created its own history, but in a certain sense, so what? Can't they just enjoy the new game as if it were simply a new scenario?

And that's exactly what most players will do. The trouble is that Jeff comes across as arrogant and expecting us to give his work special treatment. He's already publicly stated that he's uncomfortable with the idea of designers making scenarios set outside the world of Avernum.

[Kelandon]

Quote:

Originally written by Zorro:
I'm just confused as to the active hostility toward Jeff that seems to boil to the surface every now and then, and usually for reasons that seem fairly irrational to me.

The reason for the anger is Jeff's repeated condescension and broken promises towards the BoE community. There are many, many known bugs in BoE, and they've been known for years. In the documentation that comes with BoE (even now), Jeff says that he will fix bugs. He doesn't. I think it's hard to understand unless you've actually experienced the frustration involved in setting up an elaborate, beautiful design for a sequence of nodes or a puzzle or whatever and watching it fail when you test it not because of your own design but because of a bug in BoE itself.

His support for BoE has been atrocious in other ways, too. Scenarios just randomly disappear off the Spiderweb tables. The ratings on the SW tables are a complete joke, and we've suggested ways to improve them (and even made a better ratings site, out of frustration). The first scenario design contest was called "the First Annual Scenario Design Contest," and a text file still comes with the BoE download describing it, but SW never actually lived up to the "annual" part of the contest. Jeff no longer even replies to e-mails about articles on the web site.

And probably the worst part is that when we write to him about this, when we complain about anything, he claims that his support for BoE has been "strong," and that no one actually wants him to make any changes to how he handles BoE. He even says that players wouldn't like a comprehensive bug fix to BoE, because it's too much trouble to download a patch. (Never mind that they're downloading scenarios all the time.)

There are many more reasons that people are angry with Jeff, but his truly miserable support for BoE over the course of seven years has been a major reason for that anger.

EDIT: And yes, Stareye has a lot more authority on this than I do.

[*i]

Quote:

Originally written by Zorro:

I don't mean this post as a flame against those who hold low opinions of Jeff. I'm just curious as to their motivation.

There are a lot of little things over many, many years to those who have been around. It mostly centers around broken promises and arrogant responses. Here are a few key issues:

1) Primarily, failure to fix bugs inherent in Blades of Exile. The product is advertised to have features that are broken. Imagine if you bought a car with air conditioning, but when you turn it on it just blows hot air. When asked to do anything about it, Jeff is unapologetic.

2) The "annual" scenario design contest was only hosted once. More were promised if participation was good. Participation was great, but it was "too taxing" on their employees. Offers by the community to help were shot down. To his credit, he will sometimes begrudgingly give a prize out to for the unofficial community contests.

3) Complete and total neglect of the Blades of Exile scenario tables. Designers put a lot of work into their scenarios and would like to have their work displayed and fairly evaluated.

[Alaysian]

well, the complexity of making the program. I'm not sure of the situation, but as a programmer i can only imagine how long it would take to find that bug. I've done small ones and looked for hours at the program trying to find out why the big things wouldn't work. As far as the community goes, he was probably just planning on the avernum editor as being a replacement for the blades of exile one, but still, having explained possibilities, he still owed those who support the games the help they need.

[bogus standard candidate]

It's a good thing that something like The Lyceum exists.

 

I'm not a programmer, and each time I've tried to make a scenario, I'm so scared that I stop. I've mapped a couple, but only on paper.

 

Knowing that an Editor is bugged and the makers of that editor don't care much about those problems may work as an obstacle for anybody wanting to create an scenario using that editor. Some members of this community may not even know that there are alternative places where they can go to seek information and help.

 

BoA has had a patch or two (I don't know if they helped or not), but after playing both Exiles and Averna (thanks TM) I think that if I ever conquered my fear and designed an scenario I might end up choosing BoE. I like the 2d look. Avernum looks fine, but sometimes it bothers me.

 

A Blades of Geneforge (you think Blades as a name is apporpiate? would Shapes of Genforge be too dumb a name?) might be interesting.

 

One thing I always wonder when I play the GF games is: what is going on in the world? We hear bits and pieces only.

 

As creative and brilliant as this community can when making scenarios, I get goosebumps when I think what they could do if they put their brains together to work on expanding the world of Geneforge (what is the name of the world, btw?)

 

If the Geneforge Editor proved malleable enough to allow a lot of customization, then. . . wow.

 

As for the Avernum 4 coming after BoA. . . aside from whatever disgust it may cause me, I see this as the relationship that exist between Lucas and his licensed products:

 

Lucas has complete control over the films in his saga, and has left the other products on their own. Those who have written the books have created some kind of organic universe. A book by one author may refer to characters/events created by another writer. It's been years since I've read a SW book, because I got tired of them, so I don't know if this true anymore.

 

So, the Blades communities have their own life which, pretty much, Jeff ignores. This also includes the works done concerning Emerian's story.

[Icshi]

Quote:

Originally written by Betamax sales collapsed.:
I'm not a programmer, and each time I've tried to make a scenario, I'm so scared that I stop. I've mapped a couple, but only on paper.

I worked on the basic idea for my scenario for a year or more before BoA came out, and up until early January of this year it fleshed out nicely. However, when I came to using the editor to put the towns together, I found the interface very awkward and the crude graphics made it very difficult to see exactly what I was doing. It would take me hours to try to get a single buliding done, because I would have to constantly re-load the scenario in the BoA game to see how these crude graphics translated into 3D. Even though I was using the BoA Cookbook (an excellent document!) it was impossible. Mind you, I'm not terribly good with spatial relationships to begin with, and am not very technically minded, so some of these problems are something I would encounter regardless of how easy to use the editor was.

So my rich scenario died a miserable death just as it was being put together. I hope the new editor being developed by various people is finished some day so that I can have better tools for completing it — for one thing, from what I read it'll have the 3D mode which will speed things up considerably. But I'm very sad that I won't be able to enter mine in the scenario contest.

[Notus]

Err.. 3D BoA editor has already been out both on Mac and Win. Win version is beta now, but we think we can make it version 1.0, because there is no error report for three weeks.

Please download it from next link.

 

Project: BoA Editor Remake on SourceForge.net

 

We are making new editor reconstructing 3D editor now to add more functions, such as copy paste, and improve user interface.

We hope our source code for new BoA editor will help JV to make Geneforge editor.

[Icshi]

Quote:

Originally written by Notus:
Err.. 3D BoA editor has already been out both on Mac and Win.

Quite right. What I should've said is that I'm going to wait for a much better editor all around, that will feature the copy & paste function, etc., in addition to the already developed 3D editing mode.

[Skippy the bush kangaroo]

Quote:

Originally written by The Almighty Doer of Stuff:
The problem with releasing a scenario editor and then releasing another game in the series afterward is that by releasing a scenario editor, he is basically giving us the world he created. Then, by releasing another game afterward, there's a very good chance that what he releases will directly contradict what the scenarios say.

Why is it that Ambrosia Software manage to make games with editors (the Escape Velocity series) that generate huge numbers of scenarios that are generally mutually contradictory and they are still wildly popular, but here there is an obsession that all scenarios must fit into a seamless whole?

I find the distinction between the two communities striking.

[Lilith]

It's probably to do with the fact that BoE/BoA has a large pre-established canon in the Exile/Avernum trilogy, and also the fact that there are a very small number of well-respected designers who actually work within the Exile/Avernum universe, which tends to make their ideas the gold standard.

 

(If you make scenarios that are tangentially linked to the Exile/Avernum continuity or outside it entirely, as plenty of excellent designers do, well, then obviously nobody minds what direction you take the plot in.)

[Kelandon]

Ambrosia Software also is extremely different in many other ways. It is far easier to make an EV plug-in than a BoA scenario. Ambrosia's employees actually read their boards and participate quite regularly. And any number of other differences are there, too.

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Kelandon:
Ambrosia Software also is extremely different in many other ways. It is far easier to make an EV plug-in than a BoA scenario.

That's true if you just want to add a few missions. For plugins that add new ships or weapons (i.e. most large plugins) you need to do a hell of a lot more graphical work than you do for BoE.

But now we're going off-topic.

[waffleguy]

i see nothing wrong with a GF4 or A3 after the blades came out and i dont see why others should get mad

[Lilith]

Wow. Um, you know there's already an Avernum 3, that there won't be a Blades of Geneforge for at least a few more years, and that the discontent from some members of the community was therefore about releasing Avernum 4 after BoA, right? Come back when you have your facts straight and are no longer drunk, please?

[Hawk King]

this is gonna seem stupid but i have to let it out

 

geneforge 3 mine mine mine give it to me now now now

 

ok I'm done

[Oni of Chaos]

Well, us Windows users have to wait "2-3 months" for Geneforge 3

[Hawk King]

Quote:

3D editor now to add more functions, such as copy paste

Quote:

such as copy paste

um you can already do that just press command c and then command v and walla you can past

[Icshi]

Really? With the original Spiderweb editor? So you can like select a section of the map, copy it to the clipboard, and then paste it down somewhere else? Well, paint me gray and slap me sideways! I'll have to tinker with the editor some more. I don't know how I could have missed that.

[Lilith]

That works for Mac, but not Windows (Windows dialog boxes automatically disable keyboard shortcuts as well as menus).

 

Oh, and it only works for text in dialog boxes, not terrains and stuff.

[Hawk King]

not an entire part of the map just stuff like monsters and items

sorry if i misunderstood

[Icshi]

Oh. Phooey.

 

Yes, it's with things like wanting to move a whole building to the left a few spaces that I'm wanting to do, along with the floors and terrains beneath the structure. As it is, I had to redraw the entire buidling one bit at a time to move it at all.

[Kelandon]

Holy god. Copy and paste DOES work for objects (items, monsters). That would have made several parts of Bahs SO MUCH EASIER.

 

I guess I was just too used to the BoE editor, which had a specific button for such a thing.