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[GF2] Questions about training, powergaming factions and Shapers in general.


Eugi
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I'm about a third through the game as a Shaper on Normal difficulty and seem to be running into some confusion.

 

First things first - the whole shaping business. I believe that the shaped creature gaines levels on top of its base level for every two levels of Shaping Skill (in that creature 'element') that you have and for every one level of skill in shaping that kind of creature, right? Also the shaped creature's stats increase only every two levels?

 

That out of the way, about how many creatures should I be traveling with as a Shaper? Right now I have three Cryoas that (I suspect) are in dire need of a Dex boost as they only have a 35% chance of hitting the Queen Clawbug after War Blessing and despite being level 28 each.

 

Talking about levels reminds me just how much of a pain HITTING anything has been as a shaper. Lately I've simply given up, bulked up on heavy armor (to compensate for incredibly low HP) and served as a buffer for my creations. Quite a 180 from being the ass-kicking Agent in GF1 frown Is it possible to strike a balance between being able to do damage with my main character and my creations? If I wanted to do that, should I focus on spells or ranged weapons for my main?

 

Also, does anyone recall the Mechanics/Leadership point 'progression' they used? I believe you want to have 6 Leadership and 8 Mechanics ASAP... eventually getting 10 in both (probably with the help of the Inifltraotr Vest you find pretty early)?

 

My problems with the Shaper class aside, I've been struggling with Trainers in GF2. Namely, if you gain a point in a skill as a quest reward the trainer can train you that much less... Does this also apply to manually raising your own skills? If so, what's the point of Barzite or Taker trainers since it'd take quite a headache to avoid raising your skills while waiting to get to them? I think I'm really missing something as far as Trainers are concerned. Take Learned Guas for one - he's in one of the hardest areas in the game and he'd be quite useless to me since I would have gotten training or quest rewards in the skills he teaches before making it to him?

 

Finally, I've been having some second thoughts about my plan to "powergame" the four factions (I'm counting Unaligned the same as Zakary). I first thought to join Awakened, drain them of their money and then sell them out 100% to the Takers (my rep should be low enough after kissing servile ass with the Awakened). After that get help from Learned Darian to join the Barzites before coming full circle and killing everyone beyond Drypeak for Zakary. The probem is that I've been stuck with the Awakened a bit TOO long now it seems. I'm not too sure what is keeping me but I'm already hitting Geth and the point where I should be joining the Takers (I realize Geth is Barzite, but I'm following MattP's guide :rolleyes: ). I guess my main concerns are twofold: Would I be able to be upfront about terminating my connection to Awakened through the dialouge option with their leader and how much of an impact would being augmented have on my endstory?

 

The latter is another interesting point actually. I have used only a single Canister of Strength so far (and, whether I ultimately juice on Cans or skip the great majority of them I can reset that through the SDF 'cheat') but how much or will my ending change were I to be augmeneted by Tuldaric? Any difference if I were augmented by all or only one faction? Any 'code' to reverese the stuff done flag for the augmentation?

 

Overall GF2 is a tremendous improvement over GF1 in all respects. I love how the narrative explores the differences between all the ideologies and the "third paths" that people try to carve out of all the madness. Right now the person who sticks most in my mind is Elissia and her almost fanatical devotion to her orders from the council. True, she may find peace in that approach but you just 'know' that she'll get screwed like the Obeyers of GF1 when the Shapers reclaim the area. Granted her fate would be better but I doubt she'll hear much praise for her decision (cherry on top: the work she's doing is most likely useless). Also I like Loyd Blade (and hope I can spare him). Most realistic opinion of Servile/Shaper relations I've heard from anyone. Kudos to his no-nonsence attitude and approach.

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Originally written by Eugi:
I believe that the shaped creature gaines levels on top of its base level for every two levels of Shaping Skill (in that creature 'element') that you have and for every one level of skill in shaping that kind of creature, right? Also the shaped creature's stats increase only every two levels?
Yes to the stats, no to the levels. The level bonus is +1 per level of Create X skill, +1 per level of Fire/Magic/Battle Shaping skill up to 10, +1 per two levels of it up to 20, and +1 per three levels of it up to 29.
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Originally by Eugi:

 

Quote:
Is it possible to strike a balance between being able to do damage with my main character and my creations?
If you need help, there are several creations that you can have travel with you (if you have enough leadership). You can't control them, which is annoying, but they don't cost you any essence and may be useful. You should have access to the vicious roamer imprisoned by the servile cultists, a servile in the Magus Complex, and a swamp rat somewhere in the swamp by now.

 

Quote:
Also, does anyone recall the Mechanics/Leadership point 'progression' they used? I believe you want to have 6 Leadership and 8 Mechanics ASAP... eventually getting 10 in both (probably with the help of the Inifltraotr Vest you find pretty early)?
I think I went up to 10 in leadership and 12 or 13 in mechanics as fast as possible and then ignored them for the rest of the game. I didn't bother too much with infiltrator gear.

 

Quote:
My problems with the Shaper class aside, I've been struggling with Trainers in GF2. Namely, if you gain a point in a skill as a quest reward the trainer can train you that much less... Does this also apply to manually raising your own skills? If so, what's the point of Barzite or Taker trainers since it'd take quite a headache to avoid raising your skills while waiting to get to them? I think I'm really missing something as far as Trainers are concerned. Take Learned Guas for one - he's in one of the hardest areas in the game and he'd be quite useless to me since I would have gotten training or quest rewards in the skills he teaches before making it to him?
Trainers are rather icky in G2. You can only train twice in any skill, but the game counts using a canister, reading a book, getting a quest reward, or using skill points as getting trained. I ignore all of the stat trainers but the melee trainer in Medab. Sometimes I can buy a skill or two off a later trainer, but I never plan on it. The real thing to watch out for is creations. Don't using canisters that give you create creation skills until you've trained in them if you want to make the improved version of them.

 

Quote:
I guess my main concerns are twofold: Would I be able to be upfront about terminating my connection to Awakened through the dialouge option with their leader and how much of an impact would being augmented have on my endstory?
I don't think the Awakened will go hostile if you terminate your alliance by talking to Learned Pinner, although I think the Takers and Barzites will go hostile if your terminate your alliance with them.

 

I assume that being augmented is counted as if you used a few canisters, but I've never actually checked the script, so I don't actually know. However, I'm almost positive you can only be augmented once.

 

Dikiyoba.

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Thank you for the answers and clarifications guys.

 

Dikiyoba - I checked MattP's guide for GF2 and he mentiones the Barzites, the Awakened and the Takers having the power to alter you. I guess the alteration is the same for all three factions since (in a nutshell) all it allows you to do is to purchase the two top spells and creations in each category.

 

That said, does anyone have any particular preference on who alters them?

 

My other question about trainers is that some spells/skills have two trainers listed for them. Does this still mean that only one of those trainers could ever train me? If so, does anyone have any favorites as far as the cheapest/most diverse/best written trainers out there? So far I've only tried the Awakened and they are OK-ish. I've heard some good things about the Loyalist Encampment though (and it seems that you can get there fairly early by running while still "neutral"). Any suggestions?

 

Thank you!

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The trainers can only train you to level two in an ability, period. I'm not sure about skills but there usually is a limit on them. Generally the trainers that the sect in which you are aligned with are the cheapest.

 

It doesn't really matters who alters you because there is no prerequisites or payment except for being aligned with that particular sect. The only downside is that it counts for five canisters.

 

I think you can join all or if not all, most of the sects in the game. You can just change your reputation and basically they'll accept you.

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As for the creations mentioned by Dikiyoba, they are all very well until the party needs to end combat and regain strength, (and you need to pause combat to save the game). If there is even one monster around they will rush off and engage it.

 

Also you can't always ensure that they will attack one monster rather than another, which might be useful to finish off a particularly dangerous creation. That is why I ended up not using them.

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Alright so, as far as Trainers go, I get a sense that it's a good idea to stave off using Canisters/Books until you can be trained in that specific spell/skill. However once you are trained (or have had to raise the skill yourself) then just go ahead and use Canisters/Books as waiting any longer is pointless despite multiple trainers teaching you the same spells.

 

In that case I just need a more complete list of trainers as I'm afraid MattP's has a few omissions (at least once that I noticed from the Magus Complex). Then it just becomes about getting the most complete training ASAP.

 

Would anyone have any thoughts regarding my plans on "powergaming" the factions, e.g.: Awakened followed by Takers, Barzites (with the help of Learned Dorian) and finally "staying true" with Unaligned/Zakary.

 

Looks like, one way or the other, I'll have to re-roll my Shaper. I think I'll play him untill I can get trained in Create Drayk and see how powerfull they are. Right now the three Cryoas (who are all level 28 shocked ) are just barely cutting muster (and I doubt pumping Dex across all three creations would do me much good).

 

That reminds me thought, as a Shaper, what creations, creation progression, and number of creations do you guys usually go for? Personally I thouught to go with Fire, start with Artillas, jump to Drayk and stop at either Cryodrayk (for low cost) or Drakon (for Searing attack). I'd love others' input.

 

Thank you.

 

Edit: As for the creations that can join you I have no plans on using any of them. Heck, with 10 Leadership I'm not persuasive enough to have the Huge Roamer join me! frown

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Drayks are a big step up from cryoas; the difference is like the one between fyoras and cryoas. At least twice the damage, plus much better hit chance. Ordinary drayks would be good enough for the whole game on normal difficulty. Joining Zakary's faction gives the cheapest drayk shaping training, at the Upper Research Hall (at least 6 in Mechanics recommended to get there). The Barzites have a drayk canister in Rising, and offer training in shaping drakons. The Takers have drakon canisters (and training, although I don't remember the price).

 

If you want to powergame, try robbing the Awakened, then buy skills from the Servants, then go Barzite, then Taker. Joining Zakary late in the game is not very helpful - the Shaper Council isn't very fond of him, and disapproves of the modifications offered by e.g. the Awakened.

 

Doing (or even accepting) some quests can hinder your progress in another faction. My current character (I just returned to the game after a break of a few years) can join the Takers (after Servants-Awakened-Barzites), but since I have given the Awakened research to the Barzites, I couldn't progress very far with the Taker quests.

 

Creation-wise, my current character went from artilas to vlish, then added a glaahk, a gazer and an eyebeast, in that order. Vlish are decent in large numbers, and cheap, but I missed drayks until I got the gazer.

 

EDIT: As far as I know, only the Takers turn hostile if you leave them.

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Well, for better to-hit chance of a creation, as far as I remember from experience and descriptions, you have to add more points to its strenghth, not dexterity, as the latter only improves its chances to dodge.

 

Edit:

1) And I think that in terms of leadership 12 is enough for everything, but I'm not sure - if you're really desperate to know, you can check every get_stat(20) statement in the scripts.

2) About factions, try joining the one you agree with most and stick with it (switch only if the you find any other one who has better views). For example, you said you joined the awakened. Stick with them if you joined them for a reason, it really is harder, for they are not as powerful, but in the end, you have a nice feeling of satisfaction that you helped the nice serviles who only want peace and rights they deserve.

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I just replayed through GF2, and the Shaper class was the most difficult to keep alive. Even with the same early investment in leadership and mechanics, agents and guardians stomp all over the map, but the shaper had to reload a lot, and skip many monsters like the clawbug queen until getting enough power for them. Though creations get more powerful if you level them up, they still seemed so fragile, and pumping essence into them seemed to make the shaper even more vulnerable.

 

However, he did hit his stride in the late game with the cryodrayk and gazer, mass energize and strong daze, and tore up the hordes of Gazak-Uss with relative ease. Don't bother spending in melee. Every point in blessing magic is multiplied in value by the number of creations you have, and mental magic keeps your enemies off balance and vulnerable.

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I've restarted playing as an Agent and it's been much smoother going so far. However I've boiled down this thread to pretty much two questions:

 

1) Lets say there is Trainer A and Trainer B that can both teach you the two levels of Mass Energize. If you don't use any books/canisters and get both levels of training from Trainer A, will Trainer B still be able to teach you two more levels of Mass Energize?

 

2) Other then EXP (and lack of augmentation vs equipment when joining Zakary) is there any diference in the rewards you get between joining one faction over the other? More specifically, where one faction would be more alluring to one class than others?

 

Finally I am still a bit confused as to how best to powergame the factions - it's all a bit frustrating. I'm assuming that I can join and leave the Takers only once... but can I join and leave and rejoin the Awakened, Barzites or Zakary? As an agent I'm strong enough to join either Barzites, Zakary or Awakened right off the bat. I would really appreciate some advice on pwoer gaming factions =/

 

(If, indeed, factions need to be powergamed at all? See question number two shocked )

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Originally by Eugi:

 

Quote:
1) Lets say there is Trainer A and Trainer B that can both teach you the two levels of Mass Energize. If you don't use any books/canisters and get both levels of training from Trainer A, will Trainer B still be able to teach you two more levels of Mass Energize?
No. You can buy two levels from Trainer A and none from Trainer B, or two levels from Trainer B and none from Trainer A, or one level from each, but you can only ever train two levels.

 

Quote:
Finally I am still a bit confused as to how best to powergame the factions - it's all a bit frustrating.
The only advice I can give you is this section from Schrodinger's walkthrough:

 

Quote:
Q: Can I join multiple sects?

A: I believe so. I've been able to go from Takers to Servants without any problem, so I believe you can do the same. I believe you could milk almost all of the sects of their good items if you don't complete their quests. Join the Awakened first, and get modified to use their potent magic, but don't do the Radiant college quest. Then join the Barzites, get all of their creations and canisters, and finish up as the Takers. Finally, try the unaligned route by killing everything that moves. You'll be quite powerful at the end of all of this.

 

Q: How do I powergame the sects?

A: First join the Servants. This is fairly easy with only 6 leadership. You'll get a number of decent creations from this, in addition to some high level spells. Then join the Awakened (praise some of the serviles or do their quests) and get altered to get the highest level spells, but don't do their Radiant College quest. Next join the Barzites (either by insulting serviles or Learned Darian. Get their canisters and train at the Radiant college, but stop before offending the Takers. Then join the Takers (if possible). Get their canisters. This is all hypothetical, but might be possible.

Dikiyoba hopes that is useful for you.
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It's not just hypothetical, it's very doable. It's easier to switch between pro-servile factions or pro-shaper factions, then use Learned Darian's influence to change sides. I think it's more satisfying to backstab Barzal early, then leave the Takers after getting their augmented drayk on your team. Of course to get that far you have to piss off Barzal and the Awakened. Also, you do not want to show your face in Zhass-Uss as a Barzite, not unless you've already left the Takers anyway.

 

You can join Zachary at any time if you have high enough leadership; he knows he's desperately over a barrel with the Shaper Council.

 

Also, with regard to training, you can't buy training over two levels above your base starting level in GF2. So if whether you've gotten your skill point through a book, a canister, or a quest reward, that's one less skill point you can buy.

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