Garrulous Glaahk Mr.Bookworm Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 How about Jeff just resolves this damn issue by giving Alwan a new custom acid baton with multi-shot? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotghroth Rhapsody Grain of Salt Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 Multi-shot acid batons might be going a bit too far. I agree with Slarty; don't make him a clone of Greta, just pile on the armor. Perhaps let people upgrade his resistance to different types of attacks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Delicious Vlish Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 Ideally, Alwan shouldn't have much offense. Alwan should be a Guardian and gain defensive abilities. I mean, the missile attacks are nice and all, but he should be gaining defensive abilities at some point. Edit. It would be perfect if Alwan could gain extra action points in the game somehow. 10 ap, like a plated bug. With a baton, he could shoot twice and rival Gretas offense. Been thinking about this quite a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unflappable Drayk MagmaDragoon Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 What about let him shape? Is too much? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unflappable Drayk Radix Malorum Est Cupiditas Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 Quote: Originally written by MagmaDragoon:What about let him shape? Is too much? Yes. Most emphatically, yes. Even if I could give him the ability to do so, I wouldn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Delicious Vlish Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 So how does the upgrade work? When and where? And how much is to much? One or even two extra abilities is one thing, but that many AP with multi shot is to much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Mea Tulpa Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 I would be very cautious about adding new ability or creature or item definitions. Modifying already existing ones is pretty safe, but we have no idea how Jeff stores the definitions in memory. It may not be set up to handle more than a certain number of abilities, or abilities that are not numbered a certain way. It's probably safe, but if it does cause an error, it could be an icky one. This goes without saying, but test that on a copy of the game folder and not the original. Also, starting out with 10 AP *and* a baton *is* overpowered, way way way moreso than an acid baton would be. Plated Bugs don't have missile attacks, so their bonus AP isn't so hot. The 10 AP thing should be an upgrade, probably the last upgrade. Also, starting out with 25% resistance to everything doesn't make sense either. That's a reasonable upgrade at some point, but to begin with non-armor resistances ought to be lower. Standard armor gives you half its armor value as resistance to energy, fire, and ice. Poison and acid resists deserve to be low, and mental effects certainly should be low or nonexistant given the quality of Alwan's reasoning resistances: 0 physical 1 energy 2 fire 3 disruption (resistance is handled entirely by creature_type) 4 poison 5 acid 6 ice 7 mental I'm not sure how stun is resisted by creations (if at all). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt Suspicious Vlish Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 DV: Quote: I don't really view this as a cheat but more of a balance fix. One that should have been made before the game's release. It wasn't exactly game breaking, but it was extremely one sided how useful Greta was compared to Alwan. Loyalists couldn't keep Greta... She took off right as she was becoming quite powerful. Which is why I keep saying that the script writers here should release some sort of unofficial mod which rebalances the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curious Artila chibi kaie Posted June 14, 2006 Author Share Posted June 14, 2006 I tried out taking both Alwan and Greta. It worked so well that I began to think that my party was seriously overpowered. I had hardly any problems, and I think I could try to take that same team (both human NPCs, one fyora, one artila) on torment level and survive. I suppose the game has been written with the idea that you'll take at least one of them with you. That having been said, does anyone have any suggestions for playing without them? I realize that tactically, it's a bad idea, and I wouldn't bother trying it on torment. But I'd really like to find a way to play neutrally, without the NPC allies and without using cannisters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Mea Tulpa Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 Tactically, it's a perfectly fine idea. Typical Agent tactics rely on making your one character unassailable through a combination of hit-and-run tactics, brute speed, and buffing spells. Shapers, meanwhile, can make creations that are significantly more powerful than Alwan and Greta, for minimal essence, and can do so fairly early. Arguably, Artila go in that category. Vlish certainly do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotghroth Rhapsody Retlaw May Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 Agents really do NOT need either one (or at least the way I play one torment). I do a lot of hit and run including a lot of hiding from some monsters while attracting others. Having either one would be a liablility to attract more monsters. The only time I ever had these two with my current agent was to absorb some damage when I killed the mage on the first island who was trying to learn shaping (no canister loyalist). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curious Artila chibi kaie Posted June 14, 2006 Author Share Posted June 14, 2006 You killed him? I am impressed. I didn't know that was even an option, but I don't often pay that much attention to dialogue choices that I violently disagree with. (I violently disagree with anything that would result in my violent death.) Hit and run ... perhaps I'll try that. I wonder if I can pull off a hit and run shaper with one artila? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Lilith Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 Quote: Originally written by chibi kaie:You killed him? I am impressed. I didn't know that was even an option, but I don't often pay that much attention to dialogue choices that I violently disagree with. If your aim is to kill someone, you don't need to talk to them first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnificent Ornk Aran Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 Yes, but a commonly accepted policy in SW games is not to gut non-hostile NPCs until they attack, insult your mother or strongly disagree with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Randomizer Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 Sometimes it's easier to kill a non-hostile NPC by going through the dialog options and then finish and go into attack mode to get first strike. Some dialog options where you say you will kill it cause you to get killed when they strike first. I didn't think about killing that mage. I did kill them in the Refuge after watching Greta die when I was exploring the back rooms. I found augmenting the party helps you survive long enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curious Artila chibi kaie Posted June 15, 2006 Author Share Posted June 15, 2006 I killed Aiglos by accident once by convincing him to join me in the artila hunt and not bothering to heal him when he got hit with acid (I say it was his fault, he kept rushing ahead), but I didn't think to see if he stayed dead (i.e. if I could then explore the Refuge with impunity). Is there anything good there (i.e. is it worth doing it on purpose, presuming I'm being ruthless anyway)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnificent Ornk Dikiyoba Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 Dikiyoba thinks that there was a topic about this recently, and Dikiyoba thinks that the general consensus was no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Zeviz Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 Quote: Originally written by chibi kaie:I killed Aiglos by accident once by convincing him to join me in the artila hunt and not bothering to heal him when he got hit with acid (I say it was his fault, he kept rushing ahead), but I didn't think to see if he stayed dead (i.e. if I could then explore the Refuge with impunity). Is there anything good there (i.e. is it worth doing it on purpose, presuming I'm being ruthless anyway)? Considering the difficulty of the enemies in the Refuge, as somebody said before, if you can defeat them, you don't need their loot. So the only reason to do it would be as a challenge for your low level party. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Mea Tulpa Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 One of the main problems with killing NPCs -- like Aiglos -- is that if they are tied to a quest reward, you have to talk to them to clear the quest from your quest list and get the experience (and items, if applicable) as a reward. Jeff's way of having NPCs be attackable is yet another holdover from the Ultima games, in which you could typically kill Lord Brittish without any consequences to the game world whatsoever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Randomizer Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 I killed everyone in the Refuge, and found you need to augment the party if you don't want anyone to die when they go hostile. Maybe attacking first instead of triggering them by going into a locked room will work. There is an iron sword in a back room and some pods. Nothing special unless you are running a guardian. I guess I came out ahead on money for burning 2 essence pods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Delicious Vlish Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 I always go in there with my Agents... I need that iron sword. Early game in Torment, when I am low on energy and not much on power and a slight breeze could take half my hit points, I need that iron sword. When I daze everything, I can melee safely. Unless of course, I damage it, but fail to kill it. Next round, it might just kill me. With the iron sword and a bit of war blessing, I can follow the Agent's Mantra. One shot, one kill. I have a fair bit of confidence that when I daze something, and go in for the kill with that iron sword, I will finish it off, completing yet another Agent Mantra. If I stab it, one of us will die. If not mine enemy, then I. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyshakk Koan Hyena of Ice Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 Wow, I just now found this thread. This is awesome. I can give Alwan and Greta some resistances later in the game. As for me, I never placed much stock in melee combat (except when using Alwan). I've always been a ranged attack person. (exception being when fighting golems with the oozing blade) I'm surprised anyone can afford to pump enough into their agent's strength to afford an iron sword. Then again, I use most of my skill points on leadership and mechanics until mid or late Harmony Isle... Leadership at 12 and mechanics... I think at 13.... and 7-8 luck... Also, who in their right mind would want to give essence orbs to Greta? Multi-target attacks interfere with the daze spell (love spamming that), plus essence orbs = no acid. NO ACID Granted, I ALWAYS use the Agent. You know what I hate though? No poison attacks. No, I'm not talking about dousing something in poison, I'm talking about an attack that actually inflicts poison damage. Some of the monsters late into the game have no poison resist. Unfortunately, covering something in poison does negligible damage (useful on the first half of Harmony Isle and earlier) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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