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Alwan and Greta questions


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I was wondering what people thought of using Alwan, Greta, both, or neither. Since it looks like you're forced to choose a side and therefore can't keep both, is it worth it to recruit both anyway? I thought I saw something in a post about experience not dropping any further if you had more creations, and I assume Alwan and Greta count as creations. If that's the case, doesn't it make some sort of sense to recruit and keep both for as long as possible?

 

If you don't want either one along for whatever reason, how crippling is it to your battle prowess to not have one of them in your party? How much of a difference does the extra firepower make? Early on, it was like getting a free creation, which is nice if you're playing an agent. As I got higher in level, though, they started looking more like cheap cannon fodder.

 

Also, if I ask Alwan to accompany me, join the loyalist Shaper faction, but frequently espouse views sympathetic to the rebels, is it possible to anger him to the extent that he leaves? I assume that if I outright join the rebels with Alwan in tow, he'll leave the party at that point, but if I toe the line with actions if not words, will he stay? (Or the reverse with Greta.)

 

Finally, is there any way to improve Greta's spells without actually buying upgrades for her? With Alwan, increasing his strength should help. But since spell strength is dependent on stats that I can't raise as she increases in level, I don't see any way to improve her basic firebolt. I experimented with raising her intelligence, but that didn't seem to help. (In fact, aside from resisting terror, does intelligence help any creation so long as you have control over it?) Or wait - is she like a fyora, in that raising her strength will increase the power of her firebolt?

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Originally written by chibi kaie:
I was wondering what people thought of using Alwan, Greta, both, or neither. Since it looks like you're forced to choose a side and therefore can't keep both, is it worth it to recruit both anyway? I thought I saw something in a post about experience not dropping any further if you had more creations, and I assume Alwan and Greta count as creations. If that's the case, doesn't it make some sort of sense to recruit and keep both for as long as possible?

If you don't want either one along for whatever reason, how crippling is it to your battle prowess to not have one of them in your party? How much of a difference does the extra firepower make? Early on, it was like getting a free creation, which is nice if you're playing an agent. As I got higher in level, though, they started looking more like cheap cannon fodder.

Also, if I ask Alwan to accompany me, join the loyalist Shaper faction, but frequently espouse views sympathetic to the rebels, is it possible to anger him to the extent that he leaves? I assume that if I outright join the rebels with Alwan in tow, he'll leave the party at that point, but if I toe the line with actions if not words, will he stay? (Or the reverse with Greta.)

Finally, is there any way to improve Greta's spells without actually buying upgrades for her? With Alwan, increasing his strength should help. But since spell strength is dependent on stats that I can't raise as she increases in level, I don't see any way to improve her basic firebolt. I experimented with raising her intelligence, but that didn't seem to help. (In fact, aside from resisting terror, does intelligence help any creation so long as you have control over it?) Or wait - is she like a fyora, in that raising her strength will increase the power of her firebolt?
I suggest you to recruit both. One will go away, is true, but is useful anyway.

And no, you have to buy upgrade for Alwan and Greta, if you want a more powerful attack/a more powerful spell.
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I've found Greta and Alwan to be invaluable at the beginning of the game, when you need all the firepower you can get, and moderately useful in the middle. I didn't even bother to go and fetch one of them after they died on Dhonal's Island, so I don't know about the late game. You can talk to various people that will upgrade their attacks.

 

Dexterity, I believe, at least increases the to hit % of missile attacks like Firebolt. I'm not sure if it increases the damage or not.

 

Alwan deserts you if you help the rebels at Harmony Isle, and Greta leaves if you kill them. It'd be possible to have them both, I think, up to the Dhonal's Island Creator, where you have to pick sides.

 

EDIT: Beaten to the punch.

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I haven't tested this with Alwan and Greta specifically, but for creations -- and it should be the same for them -- Dex only affects dodge rate. Hit rate for any creation attack is determined by the attack, the creation, and the creation's Str.

 

(Has anyone tested this specifically with them?)

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Up to a point; eventually, you can only keep one.

 

They're both interesting characters, and I replayed to keep them both (in successive games) just to see what they said and what happened to them. Paying to upgrade their attacks, at the two opportunities you get in the game, is well worthwhile.

 

Otherwise, on Torment at least, Greta pulls her weight, but Alwan is a bag of poo tied in the middle. He keeps dying, and dying, and dying (or rather, running away). It's hard to keep him alive enough to get enough experience to not die. Which came first, the slipping experience or the wimpiness, is an interesting question; either way, though, Alwan is a chicken.

 

In fairness to Alwan, I believe this is just the usual problem that missiles are much easier than melee on Torment, because they let you avoid heavy melee damage from enemies. It is much easier to keep Greta out of range of enemies, but still useful.

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Quote:
Am I missing something here?
yes, creations take only a little exp but help you kill stronger things which gets you more exp.
so it dosn't really suck away your exp.

Quote:
Alwan is a bag of poo tied in the middle
i resent that.
alwan rules. why? beacouse he's a guardian. and guardians rule.
without gaurdians to use for intelligent cannon fodder shapers and agents would die. because they do not rule.
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Quote:
Originally written by Major:
Quote:
Everything a Guardian can do an Agent or a Shaper can do better.
Be careful saying that... How about my melee squad leader?
With enough points in Endurance and Blessing Magic to improve survivability, a melee Shaper might actually work. I'm not sure if it'd actually be better than a Guardian doing the same thing (and let's face it, a melee squad leader is a suboptimal strategy in the first place), but it'd be interesting to find out.
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Wow, I guess that explains why I keep dying so much. Lately, I've been playing without either one. Alwan's fanaticism gets on my nerves (and yeah, I've always had trouble with melee fighters in general), and while I sometimes sympathize with Greta, she also ends up annoying me. I mean, if you use leadership to absorb the rogue artila in the stables in Fort Kentia, she's disturbed. What, so she'd rather whack its head off? Does she think that's a cleaner death or something? It's still dead. And shouldn't she be mad at Hoge for leaving it there? And WHY does she hold *your character* responsible for the spawners in the mines?!

 

Oh, well. I suppose I should either suck it up and take them with me or go back to playing the earlier Geneforge games. They didn't quite get on my nerves so much. I like the *idea* of having human companions, even if the fact that they can't use any armor or weapons that you find annoys me greatly. (I always play a low strength character, and I wish I could stick that fancy armor I find on Alwan. He might actually survive a few hits if I did. And why can't I at least load him with a thorn baton? I've got enough of them ...) But these two ... yergh. I just don't like them.

 

Thanks for all the responses, by the way. I've certainly learned a few things.

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How often do you see someone bragging about how excellent battle betas are? It's not about the realism. It's about the percieved "coolness" factor. It has to be at least Guardian vs. Battle Gamma for things to be interesting.

 

Other possibilities include Guardians vs. Vlish, Guardian vs. Eyebeast, and Guardians vs. Everyone Else.

 

Dikiyoba.

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I did some experiments, and Greta's damage seems to be improved by strength. This is counterintuitive for this kind of attack, but I guess it makes it consistant.

 

I liked having both from a combat viewpoint. Even when Alwan is just sucking up some damage and running away, at least that damage was not done to my character, and I can heal him easily later. Late game, he gets over 500 hit points, which can be boosted by magic. So he can really take a lot of damage that might otherwise get to your agent. As a shaper, where you can make your own cannon fodder, perhaps Alwan is not so useful. Still, he does not take up any of your essence, and is a minimal experience drain.

 

As for dialog, both are annoying at times. I can't believe Greta is so facinated with a generator that produces very powerful out-of-control rogues. Given all that we have seen, I can't believe Alwan does not see that a little bit of kindness and gentleness can go a long way toward defusing tensions, thinks that a stricter policy is needed, and rebukes me for stating otherwise. They are both nutcases in their own ways.

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Strength increases Greta's damage because underneath her drop-out Agent skin, she's really a creation, as far as the game mechanics are concerned.

 

Alwan can eventually get a lot of hit points, but he never gets parry or raises his resistance with items. My game with him was as a melee Guardian without creations. I figured we'd be a good team, two of a kind; but he was constantly getting blown away by attacks that just singed me. At first he was still useful, but whenever he died, I would generally finish the zone alone. I guess this was a vicious circle, and his experience gain rate kept dropping as he started dying earlier and earlier in each zone, until eventually he was really no use at all.

 

With a Shaper, or maybe even an Agent, Alwan might be okay. But I think Greta would be okay for anyone, because she can fight while staying out of harm's way.

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Quote:
Originally written by Student of Trinity:
...Alwan can eventually get a lot of hit points, but he never gets parry or raises his resistance with items. My game with him was as a melee Guardian without creations. I figured we'd be a good team, two of a kind; but he was constantly getting blown away by attacks that just singed me...
I kept Alwan alive most of the time as an Agent. Essence Armor and/or Steelskin do wonders for his survivability. Also, after he takes 80% damage or so, I just pull him back if I don't feel like healing him right then, because I can usually spend the time doing far more damage than he does. Sometimes the enemies will chase the injured Alwan, running right past me, using all their action points and not getting off a shot, and I can finish them off. In late game, I felt he was often worth the essence needed to protect him and keep him alive.

With some magic resistant enemies, sometimes my best recourse was to spend my energies healing Alwan, so that he could do melee damage that was often double what I could do with magic.

Greta is always useful. There is no need to justify a decision to keep Greta. Alwan is more borderline as to whether he is useful, which is why I was detailing how I make Alwan useful. Unfortunately, you don't get to keep Greta as a loyalist, so you have to figure out how to best use Alwan.
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The point is that he is so wretchedly gimpy compared with Greta
he is not, just cast essence shield and uagument on him and he's fine.

Quote:
Everything a Guardian can do an Agent or a Shaper can do better. It's been proven many times.- delicious vlish
nonsense, gaurdians make better cannon fodder don't they?

Quote:
In my opinon, something that is used for "intelligent cannon fodder" most definitely does not rule. If it did rule, it would likely change the rules so that it was no longer cannon fodder.- little billy sue
gaurdians enjoy being cannon fodder, it's what they do.

and to prove my point that gaurdians are as good as shapers and agents, imagine this, all the gaurdians are dead. the shola attack. who's their to stop them? NOONE. Agents don't know how to fight an honest battle, shapers can't and a horde of battle betas and vish are NOT as good as a horde of gaurdians. the Shola would kill eveyone. so even if noone will admitt it the shaper society needs gaurdians. without them they would die. so gaurdians do rule. laugh

and i won't stop trying to prove that they do until people agree with me. beacuse it's true. smile
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Alwan should have had a baton, which could be upgraded as time goes on. He could get "missile training" from an instructor. As stupid as that sounds. I mean, it's not that hard to pick up a baton and use it, but there is a bit of a problem of getting the upgrade and making it somehow realistic in game.

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I think you could Recruit Both Alwan and Greta if you go to the Infested Woods north of the Methane Swamp because that's where they both look each other in the eye and believing that's the first time they agreed with each other.

And the baton is a good idea but what? He's going to have Unlimited Ammo? I really like him having a sword.

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Alwan's got the basic problem of all melee guardians in that he wastes AP getting up to attack. With daze to stun a group, then he can stroll up to the monsters and pick them off one at a time. Pumping strength and some endurance makes him useable early on in the game, but he sucks up damage worse than a sponge with water.

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and to prove my point that gaurdians are as good as shapers and agents, imagine this, all the gaurdians are dead. the shola attack. who's their to stop them? NOONE. Agents don't know how to fight an honest battle, shapers can't and a horde of battle betas and vish are NOT as good as a horde of gaurdians. the Shola would kill eveyone. so even if noone will admitt it the shaper society needs gaurdians. without them they would die. so gaurdians do rule. laugh

 

and i won't stop trying to prove that they do until people agree with me. beacuse it's true. smile [/QB]

 

Actually a horde of Battle Betas, or any of the battle trio are as good. Agents can fight just as good as Gaurdians. Agents bless themselves, blast the enemy, and then fight with their swords. Shapers make Vlish and Battle Gammas and, then blast the heck out of the Sholai. Gaurdians are useless. End of story.

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chibi:

Quote:

Alwan's fanaticism gets on my nerves (and yeah, I've always had trouble with melee fighters in general), and while I sometimes sympathize with Greta, she also ends up annoying me.

I'll probably get flamed for this, but I ended up appreciating Alwan's attitude. He's got a hell of a lot more initiative, guts, professionalism and foresight than Greta. I just hated Greta. What a wench.
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Alwan is woth it. *cough* Just change "creature 5" with this:

 

begindefinecreature 5;

cr_name = "Alwan";

cr_base_level = 4;

cr_graphic_coloradj = 256;

cr_regen_rate = 3;

 

cr_abil_num 1 = -1;

cr_abil_level 0 = 5;

cr_abil_num 1 = 50; // thorns

cr_abil_level 1 = 4;

 

Nice isn't it?

 

(Did anyone noticed I was gone?)

 

--------------

"I did! I couldn't post anything. So I'll post this, ha!"-The person behind him.

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The script is entitled gf3itemschars search for creature number 5.

 

Major's coding should look like this:

Code:
begindefinecreature 3;	import = 0;	cr_name = "Guardian";	cr_graphic_template = 100;	cr_max_health = 24;	cr_max_energy = 20;	cr_max_essence = 40;	cr_regen_rate = 2;	cr_energy_regen_rate = 2;	cr_walk_speed = 24; //base_speed;	cr_base_level = 1;	cr_sound_when_slain = 127;	cr_graphic_appearadj = -1;	cr_bonus_aps = 0;	cr_default_strategy = 0;begindefinecreature 4;	cr_base_level = 25;	cr_graphic_coloradj = 17;	cr_graphic_template = 101;	cr_regen_rate = 6;	cr_abil_num 0 = 2; // sword attack	cr_abil_num 1 = 54;begindefinecreature 5;	cr_name = "Alwan";	cr_base_level = 4;	cr_graphic_coloradj = 1024;	cr_regen_rate = 0;	cr_abil_num 1 = 50; // thorns	cr_abil_level 0 = 5;
For some reason, cr_regen_rate never works on creations.

 

Character number 3, as well as numbers 0 and 6, refer to your PCs, if you wish, you can alter them as you see fit.

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This on the road going up to the testing grounds:

text1 = "Greta looks around, slightly in a daze. _I had never thought I would ever travel along the road to the Testing Grounds. When I was still in the school, I had nightmares about it._"; text2 = "Alwan says, _You don't deserve to go to the Testing Grounds. Scary or not, it is a secret place. Shapers only._"; text3 = "Greta frowns. _This is a time of crisis. I may prove to be a Shaper yet. I was not thrown out for lack of skill, but because of my principles. Remember that._";

This is at the testing grounds:

text5 = "Alwan looks troubled. _I wish we had come here with the blessing of a Master. Every Shaper can choose for him or herself when to come. But I wish we were not so alone._";

text6 = "Greta says, _I truly never thought I would come here. But I will subject myself to the ordeal if I can. I wish to fight against the monsters, whether the Shapers approve or not._";

text7 = "Alwan snorts. _The Shapers threw you out. You should not be here at all._ Greta ignores him.";

 

Inner mines:

text5 = "What you are seeing is unthinkable. It is a creation making a creation. Giving a creation the ability to shape is one of the worst and most irresponsible acts a Shaper can do. It is a crime against the balance of the natural world."; text6 = "Alwan looks shocked. _Shaper, a rogue like this, with the ability to spread and make new rogues, it must be destroyed! Can we kill it now? Please?_"; text7 = "Greta turns to you. She has a strange look on her face, as if she places part of the blame for this horror on you, or at least on the Shapers. Then she places her hand on her blade and watches the creature carefully, looking for a weak spot.";

This is where you pick up Diwaniya’s creations, And the entrance to the twin minds. I think.

text3 = "Greta says, _This isn't right. These lands aren't right. Even I can feel it, Shaper or not. This place is diseased. It should be cleaned. By us, or the Shapers, or the rebels. By someone._"; text4 = "Alwan doesn't say anything nasty about Greta's remarks, for once. The two seem united in their discomfort. _She is right. This swamp must be cleansed. And, it seems, the job is falling to us._";

But this is what I like about Alwan:

text1 = "Alwan looks ill at ease. It is unusual, considering how confident he usually acts. _I just wanted to ... I didn't want you to think ... I ..._ He takes a deep breath."; text2 = "_I feel that I have been giving the impression that I am a mindless slave of the Shapers. That I never question anything our kind does. This is not true. I know that our rules and ways have to change, to evolve._"; text3 = "_I am not like her,_ he nods at Greta. _I am loyal. But I can still think._"; text4 = "_However, this is a time of crisis, of war. There are times to reevaluate our ways, but this isn't one of them. Now is the time to be strong, and sure._";

And this:

question = "That is wise. Shapers should try to only change our laws in tranquil times, when we can ponder what we are doing carefully."; text1 = "_It reassures me to hear you say that. Though, as a Guardian, I should think more on enforcing than judging the law, I still have to make decisions. I have to judge what is right._"; text2 = "_And that is especially true now, when nobody is watching or guiding us._";

Then this:

question = "But times of crisis are the times when we should most be looking for ways to change, to adapt."; text1 = "_I was afraid that you would say that. Perhaps you are calmer, stronger than me. But I am scared. I am not afraid of admitting it._"; text2 = "_It is taking all my strength and concentration to fight our enemies and try to find out what is happening. I do not have the energy to weigh my moral code at the same time._"; text3 = "_Guardians do not make laws. We enforce them. I wish I had a commander telling me what to do. But, this position is where I ended up. I will deal with it as best I can._";

Wow, what a long post. I’ll shorten my sig to make it shorter. I would have quoted Magma but you know… Thankyou radix malorum est cupiditas

 

--------

“Wham! Hehe.”-Person behind.

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It sort of pains me to say this, but I applied the code to Alwan to see if it would correct his shortcomings. He can use both his sword and his thorns... He seems to only shoot plain thorns, and does a fair bit of damage. I don't know how long plain thorns will be useful, but all of a sudden Alwan is a well rounded character suitable for Torment level combat. On the wounded alpha guarding the school exit, Alwan's opening shot did 24 damage, unblessed, unbuffed, all on his own. That's a fair bit of hurt starting out. Blessed, his damage increased considerably. Tremendously. He is now a strong contributor to battles and if you keep him tucked behind some of your creations, he becomes quite the sniper. He still can't one shot kill a fyora, but he is most useful. I can not help but feel that this is how he should have been all along. Batons should be skilled in both melee and missile weapons, and the lack of a ranged attack always made Alwan seem, I dunno, unfinished somehow. Now he actually feels like a real guardian fighting beside you.

 

Would be nice to somehow upgrade his baton once or twice later. Not like to reapers or anything... But say, to a venom baton and then to, hrm, a submission baton. Submission baton would suit his personality.

 

Edit.

 

I dare say that a thorn shooting Alwan would even be a suitable companion for an Agent. The ability to keep range and distance away from the enemy is vital for particular playstyles... I never thought I'd say this.

 

Second edit.

 

Just wondering, when you upgrade Alwan's attacks, I wonder if the acid drip from his sword would apply to the thorn shots? And the damage boost? Anybody know, or am I going to have to test this out the hard way?

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Well, later you can change it to this:

begindefinecreature 5;

cr_name = "Alwan";

cr_base_level = 4;

cr_graphic_coloradj =5;

cr_regen_rate = 0;

 

cr_abil_num 1 = -1;

cr_abil_level 0 = 5;

cr_abil_num 1 = 54; // baton

cr_abil_level 1 = 4;

Quote:
radix is Infernal. And, where are the Twin Minds? All I ever did was kill the spawners.

Ah, I wondered what happend to Infernal. And I knew that radix use to have a different name. I guess I just didn't put two and two together.

 

------------

"Beware, do not post again or you'll feel the same throbing feeling in the back of your head."-The person with a blackjack.

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Isn't that a bit to powerful to start with though? Seriously... Even on torment to justify this sort of thing, an acid baton would make seriously short work of the starting areas.

 

There needs to be a way to upgrade somehow to preserve balance.

 

The regular baton is nice because it honestly does not feel like cheating.

 

Greta gets an upgrade to an acid attack later and then a multi target attack... Alwan, as far as balance goes, should also get an acid attack other than his sword, but his baton, and then some other attack later, but not reapers. I mean, don't get me wrong, reapers would be all kinds of awesome, but unlimited reaper shots would just be obnoxious. So a submission baton or something would be a bit more balanced. Then again, submission is worse than outright damage and can be abused.

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Alwan might still not be as powerful as Greta, but at least he can be as useful as Greta. This is important. Having a means to keep him alive by keeping him out of toe to toe combat is a good thing. Having him alive makes him dependable and keeps him useful. I can live with this. As it was, Alwan was unbearable.

 

Alwan's overall suckiness was the lasting fly in my ointment concerning G3. I don't really view this as a cheat but more of a balance fix. One that should have been made before the game's release. It wasn't exactly game breaking, but it was extremely one sided how useful Greta was compared to Alwan. Loyalists couldn't keep Greta... She took off right as she was becoming quite powerful.

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Ideally Alwan's thorns should upgrade, but one could simply do this by hand at the appropriate stages. Perhaps if his ranged attack remains relatively weak, it would make sense for his thorns to just spontaneously upgrade, maybe on reaching different islands. You tend to find lots of thorns and batons lying around, after all, and they gradually get better until eventually you are using spare Reaper Batons to light your smokes. It would be plausible that Alwan just picks some up.

 

I do still wonder whether this will turn the trick for Alwan. Make his ranged attacks too good and he just becomes Greta, which makes him pointless. Short of that, will his alternatives really be any better than the choice between wimpy thorns or dying in melee?

 

Experience will tell. Thanks to Major for giving us the opportunity to try this option out, instead of just whining about Alwan. I'm still slowly replaying G2, but maybe I'll go for this next.

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Well, you can always pretend he's a missle guardian using gems (very slowly) and give him Essence Orbs or somesuch attack.

 

I fail to see how an acid baton would be in any way unbalanced, btw. The base damage is lower than Searer (1-3 instead of 1-4) and Artila, which are available very early, get to use Searer. A few points in Magic Shaping and they'll be many levels higher than Alwan, too, and stay that way the entire game. Alwan won't run out of energy, so that's nice I guess, but still.

 

If you want further realism, I'd recommend giving Alwan some armor protection. He's nakeder than a servile!

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Quote:
Isn't that a bit to powerful to start with though? Seriously... Even on torment to justify this sort of thing, an acid baton would make seriously short work of the starting areas.
You missed the part where I said "later" didn't you. And later means some where on the second, late first, or on the early third island.
And I'll try to find some multi attack for him, but wish me luck!
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