Is this Plot Overcliche?

[Dastal]

Okay, so I'm using demons as my major enemy. My plot is set before the founding of Avernum (possibly before the First Expedition: remember the "increadibly ancient" armor you find on the soldiers in the Spiral Crypt? I take that to mean there were people here before the First Expedition, especially since the First Expedition starts getting pretty big, at that point.) Here's the thing, the big baddie, we are repeatedly told, before Miccah, Mages, & Co. cleaned them out were demons. The way I have it set up, the Demons have a pretty political situation set up, and have found a ballance of power. Then you and assorted Bobs come down, and pull a Dorothy, and kill one of the Demon Kings unballancing the whole thing...

 

Too cliche, or no?

 

(And yeah, it may never be released. Let's get beyond that, please.)

[Kelandon]

Having demons as your primary villains will make some people scream in anger. I'm not one of them. I think that it's okay, as long as they have personalities and motivations like everyone else (and as long as you have mostly non-demon foes for the combat in the scenario).

 

Be sure to keep your ambitions modest, though. It sounds as though you've bitten off a plot that is larger than you can chew in a small scenario.

[WiKiSpidweb]

It seems reasonably interesting. The problem wth demons is that sometimes they have no motivations, which is bad. For example, in my BoE scenario, Inferno, I was hevily criticized for the use of demons, but this was because they had no underlying reason for their actions.

[Dintiradan]

Dastal, sounds good so far (though it still needs a lot more plot work before you even think of sitting down in front of the editor). I'm a little afraid BoA is going to get swamped with demon scenarios soon (mine one of them).

 

My advice is to treat the demons like any other baddie. Don't make them evil just because they are demons. Give them personalities. The fact that you are devoting time creating a political structure is very good.

 

Oops. I just realized that I'm repeating everything that the people before me have said. Anyway, my two-bit is: focus on the power balance for the demons. There are some good slith and nephil scenarios, but not a definitive demon one yet.

 

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Why don't smileys have noses?

[Dikiyoba]

I won't complain about having some demons if they have motivation (and it sounds like they do).

 

However, I will grumble to myself if it features mainly demons/undead built for a middle-to-high level party. I do have four priests (well, three priests and a priestess) and they will use repel spirit mindlessly and I will be very bored.

 

However, a good plot and non-repelable enemies should make it very interesting.

 

Dikiyoba.

 

Edit: Typo.

[Dintiradan]

By Dikiyoba:

Quote:

However, Dikiyoba will grumble to Dikiyoba's self if it features mainly demons/undead built for a middle-to-high level party. Dikiyoba does have four priests (well, three priests and a priestess) and they will use repel spirit mindlessly and Dikiyoba will be very bored. (FYT)

Bahssikava, anyone?

 

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IF I EVER BECOME AN EVIL OVERLORD:

All midwives will be banned from the realm. All babies will be delivered at state-approved hospitals. Orphans will be placed in foster-homes, not abandoned in the woods to be raised by creatures of the wild.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Dintiradan:

 

Quote:

Bahssikava, anyone?

Diplomacy with the Dead was far worse. Because of Bahssikava's other enemies, puzzles, and involved plot, Dikiyoba enjoyed it immensely.

[Ephesos]

Quote:

Originally written by Dikiyoba:
Originally by Dintiradan:

Quote:

Bahssikava, anyone?

Diplomacy with the Dead was far worse. Because of Bahssikava's other enemies, puzzles, and involved plot, Dikiyoba enjoyed it immensely.

DwtD was unpleasant. Bahss got my hopes up for a while, but coming out of the city to face a bunch of quickghasts before ascending Mt. Galthrax was just painful. That, and (points at sig), so the endless hordes of ghosts were a bit of a pain.

[Kelandon]

Because Bahs exists, I advise others not to create another Bahs. I like it for what it does, but we already have a high-level scenario with combat primarily against demons and undead, and it would be annoying to have several more. Some people liked the first one, but it would get old very quickly.

 

In any case, one can have demons villains but not demon combat opponents: a demon commands an army of nephilim or something, for example.

[Ephesos]

I'd have to say that personally, I never want to look at another army of nephilim ever again. EVER. Add vahnatai and you've got NM.

[WiKiSpidweb]

Ephesos, does your hatred of undead extend to all creatures affected by repel spirit?

[Ephesos]

Demons are fine if they're justified and have proper motivation. Random demons, and hordes of demons, are frowned upon.

 

Undead need a very good reason to exist. Otherwise, they die.

[Dastal]

What about "good" undead? I'm having a pretty tough time creating friendly towns, so undead and demons are playing roles as NPC's. I figure I can finagle one human settlement (miners who got lost, and are making the best of it), but much more than that, other than the people you come down with, is really pushing it. That means I need to use Sliths, Demons, Nephs, Drakes, Undead, and damn near everyone I can think of as friendlies. Few of them are "absolute" friendlies. Most are only willing to let you into their town because you can help them. And yes, this scenario is way over ambititious, especially since I only have the first outdoor section finished. (It's a biggie though. It has 17 towns since most of the towns go through three or four versions throughout the game.)

[Ephesos]

Quote:

Originally written by Dastal:
What about "good" undead? I'm having a pretty tough time creating friendly towns, so undead and demons are playing roles as NPC's. I figure I can finagle one human settlement (miners who got lost, and are making the best of it), but much more than that, other than the people you come down with, is really pushing it. That means I need to use Sliths, Demons, Nephs, Drakes, Undead, and damn near everyone I can think of as friendlies. Few of them are "absolute" friendlies. Most are only willing to let you into their town because you can help them. And yes, this scenario is way over ambititious, especially since I only have the first outdoor section finished. (It's a biggie though. It has 17 towns since most of the towns go through three or four versions throughout the game.)

Um... what on earth is the premise here? No friendly human settlements?

Suggestion: go with the kind of NPC demons who are more than willing to help you, just as long as they can profit, a lot. Even better suggestion: make them neutral in the editor, so they won't help you if/when you get attacked.

[Ash Lael]

Quote:

Originally written by Dintiradan:
There are some good slith and nephil scenarios, but not a definitive demon one yet.

Demon, by Khoth.

[WiKiSpidweb]

Agreed, although it is a BoE scenario, and I took the above post to mean no definitive BoA demon scenario. If you have BoE, however, Demon would be a good place to look at how to do the whole demon thing without reverting to an OMG! DEMONZ are EV1L!!! KILL tEHM! type of scenario.

[Aran]

Quote:

Is this Plot Overcliche?

Okay, so I'm using demons as my major enemy.

Question answered.

Quote:

The way I have it set up, the Demons have a pretty political situation set up, and have found a ballance of power.

Sort of done before. Demon, by someone I didn't remember but now see is Khoth. However, one piece of prior art doesn't make a cliché. You could yet pull it off in an original way.

Quote:

pull a Dorothy, and kill one of the Demon Kings unballancing the whole thing...

This one's new, I think. (I'm not sure if something similar happened in Demon; the demon who greeted you was killed almost immediately, but I don't think he was a very significant character.)

It sounds more original than most demon-related scenarios, all in all. Good luck!

[Xoid]

I'm open to scenarios made using mostly stock monsters, if they are well written, masterfully scripted, etc.

 

I have no problems with a scenario consisting almost entirely of daemons, I could even find a scenario with a million of them enjoyable—if you can come up with an exceptionally good reason for their presence.

 

I somehow doubt anyone could come up with any reasonable justification for that many daemons, but if they can, more power to them, I suppose.

[Thralni]

Quote:

Originally written by Kelandon:
Because Bahs exists, I advise others not to create another Bahs.

Do you mean: "Not an other scenario in which you see what is the origin and history of ancient civiliziations" (which is the current plan for my next scenario), or "Not again hords and hords of mindless undead"?

[Kelandon]

Thralni, read my post again and see if you can figure it out.

[Thralni]

Well, it was the Nephilim part of the post the confused me.

[Dastal]

Well, cannon says that Demons where what were found in Exile/Avernum when everyone came down, so I'm accepting cannon.

[Radix Malorum Est Cupiditas]

Quote:

Originally written by Dastal:
Well, canon says that Demons where what were found in Exile/Avernum when everyone came down, so I'm accepting canon.

FYT

[Ephesos]

I actually like the idea of accepting cannons into Avernum canon. It'd make things a bit more interesting, as I expect that some of the caves would have rather lucrative saltpeter mines.

[Dikiyoba]

It's not too large a stretch, either, since exploding saltpeter boxes were present in A Small Rebellion.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Meeshka]

I don't know if I ever have time to write a scenario in either BoA or BoE, but a scenario with demons seems to me an interesting challenge, when they are good and you are bad. Still, the Karma of Avernum/Exile is not for such fireblooded creatures like Demons should find the roots of their ancestors there. I think that the good ones should origin from some surface (Ermarian unexplored, other neighbour planets with portals to Avernum, etc.) and those met in Avernum are the same exiles, outlaws of their nation.

 

More to say, it's only in Avernum I heard of Demons as of the undead. I see it that way that if you thrust an aspen picket in a humans heart, unsurprisingly he will die like a vampire does. That's why Repel Spirit of high level cleares them off. IMO.

BTW I never saw a female demon. Are there any in BoE scenario Demon? Will there be any in Dastal's game?

[Aran]

Quote:

Quote:

Originally written by Ephesos:

Quote:

Originally written by Dastal:
Well, cannon says that Demons where what were found in Exile/Avernum when everyone came down, so I'm accepting cannon.

I actually like the idea of accepting cannons into Avernum canon. It'd make things a bit more interesting, as I expect that some of the caves would have rather lucrative saltpeter mines.

Originally written by Dikiyoba:
It's not too large a stretch, either, since exploding saltpeter boxes were present in A Small Rebellion.

Dikiyoba.

Only on Spiderweb...

Oh, and am I the only one who looked for some kind of joke in Infernal's "FYT" post? o_O

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Arancaytar:

 

Quote:

Oh, and am I the only one who looked for some kind of joke in Infernal's "FYT" post? o_O

Dikiyoba did for a second and then realized that it was like a reverse post-FYT post set. Cannons are a joke in and of themselves.

[Thralni]

Fine with me too, as long as you keep it at cannons, and not move on too full automatic shotguns.

[Meeshka]

Since Vahnatai have lasers, why shouldn't avernites have cannons? May be magic semi-automatic ones. Dragons leave enough sulphur, I guess. As for saltpeter, it did appear in a Small Rebellion.

[Dintiradan]

By Ephesos:

Quote:

Undead need a very good reason to exist. Otherwise, they die. Again.

FYT (just couldn't resist this one).

 

And yeah, now that I think about it, DwtD was far more annoying than Bahs.

 

EDIT: No cannons. I'm having horrifying flashbacks of Dungeon Siege (a not-so-temporary moment of insanity, I know). Goblins with mini-guns and flame-throwers. Arghhhhhhhhh!!!

 

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What kind of person would write "Aughhhhhhhhh" as he was dying?

Maybe he was dictating!

- Quest for the Holy Grail

[The Loquacious Lord Grimm]

Quote:

Originally written by Dintiradan:
Arghhhhhhhhh!!!

WHERE?? AHHH!
-flees in panic-

Oh, wait... nm...

In seriousness, I don't think that there's anything wrong with incorporating evolving technologies into the world of Avernum (saltpeter cannons, etc.).
We just need to make sure that we keep our developments in line, lest Ermarian go through an unprecedented industrial revolution.

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The Silent Assassin is thinking of changing his dress style to something a bit more modern.
I have told him on several occasions that pink bunny slippers are not the way to go.

[Meeshka]

A soltpeter cannon? What on earth is that?

 

As for a canon, one should see all existing scenarios, based on history line, before he can include something of his own? Or canon based scenarios are just A1-A4, Bahssikava and four basic scenarios of BoA?

[Zeviz]

Quote:

Originally written by Lenar Labs:
...
We just need to make sure that we keep our developments in line, lest Ermarian go through an unprecedented industrial revolution.
...

An industrial revolution wouldn't be completely unprecedented.

However, I don't think canons and other gunpowder weapons are very realistic in a magic-heavy world of Avernum:

Early guns were very unreliable and slow to load. It took a long time to develop gunpowder that could explode well. It also took a long time time to develop guns that could be loaded sufficiently fast to fire more than once before the enemies get to you. In a world where any apprentice mage can cast a bolt of fire and any powerful wizard can use shockwave spell to damage enemy walls, governments wouldn't bother investing into early gunpowder research, because results would be inferior to available magic. So gunpowder-based weapons would never get a chance to develop to a point where they can compete with magic.

[Drakefyre]

It wouldn't be the Empire or Avernum making cannons, but rebellious splinter groups without mages might put in the effort.

[Dintiradan]

Hmmm... a Nethergate-esque scenario in the distant Ermarian future, with technology versus magic, could be interesting... it would have no similarities with the rest of the canon, though.

 

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No more English essays! Wheeeeeeeee!!!

[Ephesos]

Quote:

Originally written by Dintiradan:
EDIT: No cannons. I'm having horrifying flashbacks of Dungeon Siege (a not-so-temporary moment of insanity, I know). Goblins with mini-guns and flame-throwers.

That was truly an unpleasant level... never got very far past it either. And then my hard drive died, torching my only save.

[WiKiSpidweb]

In a world with magic, technology becomes a lot less necessary. Very few times have futuristic technology and magic been fused in a way that I find pleasing. Star Wars, of course is the exception to this rule, and every other rule.

[Kelandon]

Quote:

Originally written by Meeshka:
As for a canon, one should see all existing scenarios, based on history line, before he can include something of his own? Or canon based scenarios are just A1-A4, Bahssikava and four basic scenarios of BoA?

"Avernum canon" derives from A1-4 and the four Jeff-made BoA scenarios. Then there are certain "continuities": the Echoes continuity is one, which includes most of TM's scenarios. The Bahs (eventually the Bahs/Exodus) continuity is another, stemming from Bahssikava.

It's possible to make a scenario that does not contradict canon or any of the BoA continuities, but that may not always be completely necessary.

[Meeshka]

Quote:

Originally written by Zeviz:
In a world where any apprentice mage can cast a bolt of fire and any powerful wizard can use shockwave spell to damage enemy walls, governments wouldn't bother investing into early gunpowder research, because results would be inferior to available magic. So gunpowder-based weapons would never get a chance to develop to a point where they can compete with magic.

I read several times in some fiction novels about a revolution of another type. When anti-energy field is invented or a field, making any object, moving faster then the speed of sound, disappear. No weapon except molecular (thin in 1 molecula)swords will work there. In Avernum we can see a local anti-magic field. Trust me, if somebody wants, he can make an anti-magic aggregate to cover all Ermarian. So here is the reason for a cannon or sort of BAG7.92(Boutell autogun).

[*i]

Quote:

Trust me, if somebody wants, he can make an anti-magic aggregate to cover all Ermarian.

Prove it.

[Meeshka]

Quote:

Originally written by *i:

Quote:

Trust me, if somebody wants, he can make an anti-magic aggregate to cover all Ermarian.

Prove it.

*pulling out his dear PM 9mm*
No zelatory here, please.
By the way, I forgot to say that that field had a tendency to spread throughout and on the whole planet.
The only proof here can be is that I can name the novel and te story I mentioned, if anyone is interested. But since I highly doubt they are translated into English for most users here it is quite useless (sorry for tautology). Except I find enough time to translate them.
Cross my heart, I swear! (always wondered if "swear" and "swears" have the same origin)

Edit: some addition.

[Ephesos]

Um... the odds that somebody would be able to do that before a melee fighter comes in and smashes face are low. Very, very low.

 

Besides, said field would probably require quite a bit of magical talent. Thus, whoever created it would nullify his/her strongest talent, removing a lot of the motivation for perpetrating such a puzzling act.

[Thralni]

Quote:

Originally written by *i:

Quote:

Trust me, if somebody wants, he can make an anti-magic aggregate to cover all Ermarian.

Prove it.

*whistles for TM to come*

[Meeshka]

Quote:

Originally written by Ephesos:
Um... the odds that somebody would be able to do that before a melee fighter comes in and smashes face are low. Very, very low.

Didn't quite get that. Whom was that for? Somebody would be able to do what?

Quote:

Besides, said field would probably require quite a bit of magical talent. Thus, whoever created it would nullify his/her strongest talent, removing a lot of the motivation for perpetrating such a puzzling act.

I thought I don't need to say that if such field is ever invented, definitely no mage will be interested in using it. I never said it would be a mage. I don't think Kurchatov with his hydrogen bomb was interested...

[Smoo]

Quote:

Originally written by Meeshka:
*pulling out his dear PM 9mm*

9mm? Oh, please! My bulletproof vest can stop those even without the kevlar plates. So that means that even my groin is shielded against your pathetic weapon. *pulling out his 7.62 RK-95* Alright, it's technically not mine but I still get to shoot it.

And as for the original topic(s):

I don't mind demons. Hell, I used them and they had very little motivation other than we're evil and we can. I see you probably won't be making the same mistake. Good for you!

Quote:

Originally written by Zevis:
However, I don't think canons and other gunpowder weapons are very realistic in a magic-heavy world of Avernum:

Early guns were very unreliable and slow to load. It took a long time to develop gunpowder that could explode well. It also took a long time time to develop guns that could be loaded sufficiently fast to fire more than once before the enemies get to you. In a world where any apprentice mage can cast a bolt of fire and any powerful wizard can use shockwave spell to damage enemy walls, governments wouldn't bother investing into early gunpowder research, because results would be inferior to available magic. So gunpowder-based weapons would never get a chance to develop to a point where they can compete with magic.

I dunno... Has anyone played Arcanum? Magic isn't available for everyone but even the stupidest dolt can pull a trigger *waves his hand excitedly* Even the most simple gunpowder-based weapon can kill a talented magic-user. Also everyone would benefit from steam engines and such and machines do not need sleep, food or ridiculously tall towers to boost their ego. So maybe governments wouldn't invest in that kind of research but maybe wealthy individuals would.