Betatesters for 3D Blades of Avernum Editor!

[Dahak]

Scroll & Crash Details:

If you scroll to another outdoor section you crash.

 

This happens on ANY scenario. I've tried it with all the scenarios released, plus 2 test scenarios I made (first was made with Vogel's, and the second with Issac's).

 

Upon opening the scenario, if you make NO changes, the editor only crashes once in a while. This happens with or without perspective mode active, and in 2D or 3D.

 

If you make ANY changes, the editor will almost ALWAYS crash.

 

I've not tried it in a scenario without custom graphics.

 

I've never had the editor crash when I manually move (i.e. Pick X and Y) to another section. This occurs when I scroll to another section in ANY direction.

 

If I've made a change, the menu asking to Save, Open, or Canel pops up. Click, and crash. Any option does the job. If I've saved already, then the editor crashes less frequently.

 

EDIT:

No more crashes! Yay! New bug however. If I have a terrain/floor/item/whatever selected when I scroll, the whatever I placed in the same spot as the SAVE/CANEL/OPEN button. I click, and BAM, new whatever.

[Isaac]

Quote:

Originally written by Dahak:
No more crashes! Yay! New bug however. If I have a terrain/floor/item/whatever selected when I scroll, the whatever I placed in the same spot as the SAVE/CANEL/OPEN button. I click, and BAM, new whatever.

Do you know what was causing the crashes, or did they just stop?

Can you explain yourself more on the new bug? I can't understand it. At least, I tried something that might match your description, and nothing happened wrong.

[Mortimer]

Quote:

Originally written by Overwhelming:
I've announced it in the site. Btw, I would also like to know if there is a PC version in progress. Anyone (*cough*Mortimer*cough*)?

I can start looking over it next week when I can get a new computer that I can install my copy of C++ on. Alright? alright! stop baggering me!

At anyrate, if Isaac is releasing a new beta I might as well wait to get the source code for that.

[Dark Elf]

All I have to say is, this looks amazing. Add yet another argument to the list of reasons to get a Mac instead of a PC. I just hope Mortimer can port this. I don't have the knowledge or experience. I would love this idea even if it was just editing terrain in 3D.

[Dahak]

Quote:

Originally written by Isaac:

Quote:

Originally written by Dahak:
No more crashes! Yay! New bug however. If I have a terrain/floor/item/whatever selected when I scroll, the whatever I placed in the same spot as the SAVE/CANEL/OPEN button. I click, and BAM, new whatever.

Do you know what was causing the crashes, or did they just stop?

Can you explain yourself more on the new bug? I can't understand it. At least, I tried something that might match your description, and nothing happened wrong.

New Version = No Crashes

I know the description is bad, but the editor acts like I'm clicking several times after just 1 short click on the SAVE/CANCEL/OPEN buttons for scrolling. Not my mouse by the by. I tried a different mouse also. Also, it always asks "Do you wish to Save/Cancel/Open" after I make a single change. I choose save, make NO changes in the next section, and it ALWAYS asks after that point.

I guess you could say the editor is taking my clicking on the SAVE/CANEL/OPEN buttons as an edit to the floors/terrain also.

[Isaac]

Quote:

Originally written by Dahak:
New Version = No Crashes

Very odd, I didn't think I changed anything related to that. Oh well, at least it's gone.

Quote:

Originally written by Dahak:
I know the description is bad, but the editor acts like I'm clicking several times after just 1 short click on the SAVE/CANCEL/OPEN buttons for scrolling. Not my mouse by the by. I tried a different mouse also. Also, it always asks "Do you wish to Save/Cancel/Open" after I make a single change. I choose save, make NO changes in the next section, and it ALWAYS asks after that point.

I guess you could say the editor is taking my clicking on the SAVE/CANEL/OPEN buttons as an edit to the floors/terrain also.

That doesn't happen to me. I wonder if you could possibly have any kind of weird system preferences or anything? Or weird hardware (I know you switched the mouse)? Or weird reflexes - you just automatically click twice? Or is it some strange bug that will be gone next time?

@Mortimer: I have a few final touches to make and apparently another problem of Dahak's to try to solve; I hope I'll be able to release 1.0 soon, which should be ready for porting (that is, it shouldn't change after that).

[Dahak]

Drop the "No Crashes" part. It crashes. It crashes EVERYTIME I click on Open in the Open/Save/Cancel dialog outdoors while scrolling. I don't have any problems if I try to Load a new section without saving. If I save, no dialog, and thus no problems. I've also had the game crash when I click outside the current section (i.e. In the next section).

[Isaac]

Quote:

Originally written by Dahak:
Drop the "No Crashes" part. It crashes. It crashes EVERYTIME I click on Open in the Open/Save/Cancel dialog outdoors while scrolling. I don't have any problems if I try to Load a new section without saving. If I save, no dialog, and thus no problems. I've also had the game crash when I click outside the current section (i.e. In the next section).

I don't know what to say. You seem to be the only one having all these problems.

And you say it's still quitting without bringing up anything saying anything was going wrong? (have you upgraded to 10.3 yet? that would make things simpler; I don't know so much about exactly how 10.2 works.)

[Isaac]

I have some questions for the users of this. (Don't forget you're still beta-testers!)

 

Have you been inconvenienced by the multiple steps needed to get between 3D editing and zoomed-out mode? Do you even use zoomed out mode? Do you ever use normal 2D editing? How often? Have the TAB and OPTION-TAB keyboard shortcuts been useful? Do you use OPTION-TAB more than the other, so perhaps the keys to use them should be swapped?

[Kelandon]

Quote:

Originally written by Isaac:
Have you been inconvenienced by the multiple steps needed to get between 3D editing and zoomed-out mode? Not really.

Do you even use zoomed out mode? Yes, quite often. I paint most initial terrain in zoomed out mode.

Do you ever use normal 2D editing? How often? Generally for placing walls and that's about it.

Have the TAB and OPTION-TAB keyboard shortcuts been useful? Yes.

Do you use OPTION-TAB more than the other, so perhaps the keys to use them should be swapped? No, not really.

[Dahak]

Like Keladon said. Ditto.

[Isaac]

Thank you for your prompt responses.

 

Version 0.12b2 is available. It slightly changes the colors of monster borders in 3D. In particular, the hidden-monster colors are different, and it is now possible to distinguish Hostile A and B. I also added another feature, after someone mentioned something they wanted to do in the editor on the forum, and I realized I wanted the same thing. Option-clicking on a space now centers on that space, and if you're zoomed out, it zooms in to that place.

 

I also made it much easier for Mac developers (such as myself!) to test it while programming.

[Dahak]

If I place any terrain or floor, the same is also placed (but not removed) 11 squares westward.

 

Latest version

 

I have no problem with heights.

 

Also, I move from section to section by scrolling, it asks if I want to save (with occasional crash ). I choose save. If I Nothing in the next section, but move onto another section, it will continue to ask "Do you want to SAVE/CANCEL/OPEN" until I actually save via menu or command-s

[Kelandon]

Quote:

Originally written by Dahak:
If I place any terrain or floor, the same is also placed (but not removed) 11 squares westward.

I have the same problem. I would've responded sooner, but I haven't really been able to touch my scenario for some time. But yes, this bug shows up consistently.

[Isaac]

Quote:

Originally written by Dahak:
If I place any terrain or floor, the same is also placed (but not removed) 11 squares westward.

Latest version

I have no problem with heights.

Also, I move from section to section by scrolling, it asks if I want to save (with occasional crash ). I choose save. If I Nothing in the next section, but move onto another section, it will continue to ask "Do you want to SAVE/CANCEL/OPEN" until I actually save via menu or command-s

I'm sorry, I have tried as hard as I can to figure out what's wrong. I can't reproduce any of your problems, and I have looked in the code and can't find anything suspicious. No one else seems to be having these problems. Do you know of anything unusual about your computer? That is all I can think of to ask; I have absolutely no idea whatsoever what could cause any of the problems you have mentioned. I suppose you could be lying or insane, or something like that, but that seems highly unlikely.

[Kelandon]

Okay, more detailed report. Any floor or terrain (but not height adjustment) I place in 3D mode erratically gets placed both where I clicked and approximately six squares west and one square up from where I clicked. This location is not completely consistent, though.

 

This seems to happen with any scenario that I open. I made a new scen with the 3D editor and it still happens.

 

I am using Mac OS 10.2, 3D Editor v0.12b2. It seems to happen at any resolution or number of colors.

[Dahak]

I was curious, so I tried this in 2D mode, and I find that the extra terrain is drawn according to my brush size. A 3x3 will create a duplicate 3x3 usually in some position north or northwest.

 

I'm running OS 10.2.8 with the latest version.

 

I never had any major problems with the 3D editor before you released the beta with scrolling between outdoor section.

[Kelandon]

Ah, yes. I forgot to mention that it happens (weirdly) in 2D mode, too. I saw the location of the unwanted terrain be two squares northwest, but I didn't play around with it to see if it would change at all.

 

I'm just going back to 0.12b1, and it seems to be fine.

[yes]

i downloaded this thing for classic mac, but it said something about building it? i'm totally lost, what do i do with this thing?

[Kelandon]

There is no 3D editor for OS 9 or earlier.

 

Notice that what you downloaded was the editor source, as in source code, as in the C code that still needs to be compiled in order to become a program. That C code, when compiled, would become the OS X program that you could download in the link above the one you clicked on. It only exists so that people can modify it and make their own custom editors. However, it does no good for you unless you know C code and own something that will compile C.

[Dahak]

Quote:

Originally written by Kelandon:
Ah, yes. I forgot to mention that it happens (weirdly) in 2D mode, too. I saw the location of the unwanted terrain be two squares northwest, but I didn't play around with it to see if it would change at all.

I'm just going back to 0.12b1, and it seems to be fine.

I had to switch back to 0.9b to get a version with no problems. If I could get version 0.9b + tinting, I would be happy.

[yes]

thanks for the clarification.

 

and i was so excited. oh well. another great reason to upgrade.

[Arenax]

I'm something of a C++ monkey myself, though from what I've seen of Jeff's code I want to cry (I hope Issac's is at least a wee bit cleaner). I'm going to take a crack at it. I make *NO* claims that I can do it, mind you, but I'll try.

 

Issac, I'd like to talk to you regarding a port (and, at the same time, pepper you with questions). E-mail works, I guess, but if you have AIM or something and don't mind chatting, PM me or e-mail me?

[Isaac]

Oh dear. I've been doing other things.... I wish I knew what was wrong, but I don't. I can't reproduce anything. Jeff's code is pretty bad; I don't really want to do more with it. I have looked at much of the code and the changes and can't find anything suspicious. Someone else could try compiling it themself, although that shouldn't make a difference. I have even lost most of my interest in Blades of Avernum for now; Battle for Wesnoth has 'cured' my interest in RPGs, and, being somewhat of a perfectionist , I am more a fan of strategy (which can be improved on a scale) than nonlinear plot (which there is no perfect, or even optimal, solution to).

 

I feel I must leave the solution, if there is one, to another programmer who has experienced these problems. I have what I would consider a finished version, except that other people are having problems with it. If those problems were solved, I would be very happy to share the praise with him or her upon the release of a relatively bugless version, which could be justifably called 3D Editor 1.0 ( Mac ).

 

Ideally, the entire editor should be rewritten with more power, extendability , and portability , but that is obviously a major task. Also hindering that is a perhaps poorly-designed , closed-source game engine, with many arbitrary limits and idiosyncrasies . Blades of Avernum is a good game , whose creator has wisdom in business, but it could have been designed much better (using C as the basis for the scripting language 's basic syntax was a bad idea, considering the kinds of problems people tend to have with it, but then, hindsight is always an advantage). I wish Jeff luck in his next "Blades" game; may it be as much better than BoA as BoA was better than BoE.

 

As for me, I shall likely look into these forums occasionally, as I am doing now, but, barring unlikely events, I shall remain aloof.

 

-- Isaac the Stumped Genius

 

P.S. Hope the new directions help!

[Lilith]

That's a lot of links. You a Wikipedia editor or something?

[Isaac]

Quote:

Originally written by Calm Ichneumon:
That's a lot of links. You a Wikipedia editor or something?

No, although I've browsed it a lot lately. It has lots of interesting information. I put the links in like that because:

• I felt like I was giving up and wanted to make up for it by mentioning many of the good websites/games I've found
• I didn't want to them to be a list (don't know why not, though )
• All the links are at least somewhat related to the word they're found on
• Some of them might help other programmers

@Arenax: I'll email you.

[Notus]

Hello Isaac,

 

Thank you for the excellent tool.

I think I could figure out the cause of the trouble on the 3D BoA Editor v0.12b2, that Dahak and Kelandon pointed out.

 

On the event handler, Handle_One_Event() (Bl A Editor.cpp), the flag "mouse_button_held" is raised by Mouse_Pressed() when the town mode is on. This makes handle_action() activate within the same click.

Moreover, as the "event" is a global variable, "event.where" is converted by GlobalToLocal() twice. That is the reason the second drawing falls on another position.

The bug fix is as follows. Simply return to the original on this part.

 

Code:

 void Handle_One_Event(){...    WaitNextEvent(everyEvent, &event, SLEEP_TICKS, MOUSE_REGION);	    if ((mouse_button_held == TRUE) && (event.what != 23) && (FrontWindow() == mainPtr)) {        GlobalToLocal(&event.where);        handle_action(event.where,event);    }    switch (event.what)    {        case keyDown: case autoKey:.... 

I respect you so much as you could decipher this spaghetti code. I always suffered headache during tracking this code with debugger. If JV could practice on coding technique a little more, his productivity would remarkably increase because he could do without spending so much time on bug fix. And we can play many more splendid games

 

[EDIT] Sorry, mistook v0.12b2 as v0.12b1

[Arenax]

As JV says himself, this code is ten years of kludge.

 

Oh, wait--so is Avernum!

[Notus]

Huh, only ten years! I have programming experience of almost thirty years.

Anyway, the length of the experience is not a matter. Even if it is only one year, you can write it in better programming style.

 

a) Overuse of global variables

Most of them should be handled by subroutine parameters

 

Copy-Paste programming style

Make it a subroutine.

 

c) Improper subroutine size

His subroutine size is too large or too small. Large one should be divided to several subroutines. And many similar small subroutines should be combined using a parameter.

 

d) Magic numbers

Which one is comprehensive, "event.what != 23" and "event.what != kHighLevelEvent"

 

e) Ignoring compiler warning

Next warnings suggests potential bugs.

 

'yyy' might be used uninitialized in this function (occurrence 14)

assignment of negative value '-1' to 'unsigned char' (6)

comparison is always true (or false) (10)

too many arguments for format (1)

return-statement with no value (2)

 

[EDIT] typo

[Notus]

First of all, sorry for double post.

 

I sent a message to Isaac, but he seems not to be aware of it. I know it's better for him to finalize it by himself, but old man is impatient.

 

Dahak and Kelandon,

May I ask you to check the bug fix is effective or not on your system?

I checked it on my system, but I want to know it is good on other's.

I uploaded the modified file on the next URL.

 

---- deleted -----

 

This image file contains next two files

- 3D Blades of Avernum Editor v0.12b3 - modified editor execute file

- Bl A Editor.cpp - modified code

 

The modification is only the part I mentioned on my previous post.

This image file doesn't contain any other file that is necessary to run the 3D BoA editor, such as "3D Editor Graphics". So Isaac's original set, "3D Blades of Avernum Editor v0.12b2 for Mac" is needed to run it.

 

I'll delete this link when Isaac releases the fixed version. - deleted

[Kelandon]

Yup, that seemed to do the trick. Isaac has somewhat withdrawn from the community, so I wouldn't expect him to respond in less time than, say, a week, but I tried your version of the app and it seemed to fix the problem.

 

I think it's about time for Isaac to take the label "beta" off this thing and release it as a v1.0, especially if he's not going to do more updates.

[Notus]

Thank you Kelandon,

The bug is caused because Isaac accidentally reversed the order of the event handler. What I've done is finding out this and recovering it to the Jeff's original on that part. Isaac might have some reason to do this and I want to know it. I'll wait him patiently.

 

If I could help him before he lost his interest on this excellent tool. I know a bug that cannot be fixed makes us exhaust so much. I hope this fix may make him recover his interest.

 

Until he responds, I'll look in the potential bugs that the compiler warning suggests. It'll take fair amount of time to fix them because it needs fully understanding Jeff's code.

[Dahak]

Kudos Notus. The problem has ceased to be. However, if you would be so kind, could you please find that scroll/crash error I've mentioned previously?

[Notus]

Hi Dahak,

Thank you for testing the extra-terrain fixed version.

Unfortunately the scroll / crash error is not reproduced on my system. I think it may relate to the potential bugs that the compiler warnings suggest, because the reproduction is unstable.

Anyway, I’m now working to fix that potential bugs. After finishing it, I’ll ask you to check the scroll / crash error is fixed or not. It may take a several weeks because I can work on this program only on weekend.

[Dahak]

No rush.

[Isaac]

Luckily it works for me too.

 

Ok, I know that was weird code. I changed it to stop it from, whenever I clicked, generating two clicks, which made the centering thing pretty useless. Also I only changed the code in Handle_One_Event in 0.12b2, so I have no idea what was causing problems before that. I'm having trouble figuring out why it works for everyone now. Oh well... I'll see if I can put together a version 1.0 tomorrow.

[Android]

Is anyone working on a windows version of this editor?

[Notus]

Hi Isaac,

I'm glad I can help you. I know this kind of bug is the most difficult one to find out by oneself, because one who made the change has no suspicion on that change. Most of bugs we are stuck have this character.

 

If you'll continue to develop the code, I can help you hereafter. But if you want to take a rest, I'll wait for you until you recover. I'll reorganize the code totally, but it takes...a several months. It may be easy to write it from scratch if we know the feature clearly, but the feature is the code itself.

 

Anyway, congratulation for ver1.0 !!

 

Hi Infineon,

The port to the Windows is almost impossible until the source is reorganized. In this code, Mac Carbon API is scattered here and there. Simple replacement to the equivalent Win API doesn't work. Jeff could do it because he knows the feature perfectly(?). One possible way is to extract the change Isaac made and apply it to the Windows version Jeff made. It is still hard work too.

[Isaac]

Wait, let me get this straight - the only change you made was to revert that file, Bl A Editor.cpp? Then you built in Xcode following my instructions?

 

Assuming that, I compiled a version with optimization turned on. It works for me. I'll upload it... this afternoon. I have to go to school now.

[Notus]

Yes, in the uploaded version, only "Bl A Editor.cpp" is changed. Any other file and compiler switch is not touched.

My environment is Xcode 1.5 and November2004GCCUpdater on MacOS X 10.3.6.

[Isaac]

Hmm. Seems like your system is a bit more up to date than mine, although I have Xcode 1.5 too. Anyway, my compile of (hopefully) version 1.0 is uploaded (the connection kept breaking ). Tell me if it fails for you... I only know that it works for me, which means I *really* don't know what's going on, since I thought it wouldn't work that way.

[Notus]

Congratulation again!! Perfectly works.