Some Fun Suggestions for the Anticipated Geneforge 2 Remaster

[Wizardman468]

To start off, I am a long time fan of Spiderweb Software games, and started out playing Geneforge 2. It was only after playing Geneforge 2 that I played Geneforge and then played the other installments in the saga sequentially. I have tons of suggestions to offer for the Geneforge 2 remaster and will list them below.

*Suggestions:

1. In-combat shaping: During playing some sessions of Geneforge, I noticed some enemy shapers can shape and absorb creations at will in the middle of combat; perhaps this trait could be used tactically by the PC shaper in certain scenarios? Perhaps, say, you're being surrounded by a mob of rogue creations that aren't yours, you could absorb all your creations and then cast a really strong daze spell and aura of flames and boom, you're well on your way to victory; or, you could create creations in the middle of combat; this could help give you the extra firepower you need to finish off a fight

2. Creations that can heal others: Now I know this suggestion may be a bit overpowered, but I feel like it is necessary in cases where the PC shaper is low on essence and spell energy and is low health; in this scenario, the creation with the healing ability can heal surrounding allied creations and the PC

3. Floating Over Water and Stepping Over Low Shrubbery: For some creations, it would be really neat for them to be able to hover over difficult terrain; for example, Vlish could hover over water, because they are floating creatures; Battle Alphas can step over low shrubbery as they are giant and bulky, etc etc.

4. Different types of damaging terrain: I feel like aside from areas that are contagious, like some areas in Geneforge (contagious as in acidic and poisonous), I feel like maybe Artila spits could form pools of acid? Wingbolt beams could leave traces of lightning that deal damage over time; Rotgroths could leave behind traces of poisonous decay and clouds, etc etc.

5. Tertiary Creations: By tertiary creations, I mean like the Battle Gamma. I always wondered if you could create them, and it would be a really nice addition to have that ability. My logic is that if you learn to create a Battle Alpha enough times, you could potentially upgrade it to a Battle Gamma. Now, you can still create Battle Beta, but the Battle Gamma would just cost more essence and be harder to control. The same goes for the Fyora. I always thought that Charged Fyoras were cool and it would be really nice if they were a tier above Cryoas, but you would need to learn to create Fyora enough times to be able to create it. The other creations would follow the same path; so the third tier of the Vlish could be a Terror Vlish or even a Vlish that can charm (I forgot the name of this particular Vlish)

6. Restocking Traders: Although I do like the idea that traders are running on limited resources in selling their products, I feel like if the PC runs out of resources, then they have little else they can do in fights (like running out of healing pods, healing spores, curing pods, etc); to remedy this, I was thinking that the PC could potentially have their own thorn garden, where they can grow thorns and other products, and perhaps even craft healing pods, granted they have the right materials to do so; this way, the PC can also restock on thorns for their thorn batons and perhaps apply enhancements to their armor (the PC can install a forge or something like that if they want to make armor enhancements or weapon enhancements)

7. A Scouting Creation: I feel like a scouting creation would be really nice; I don't have a specific preference, but maybe a bird-like creation that could scan an area for the best path forward (with certain limitations so it's not too broken or overpowered), so the PC can weigh which path they should best take proceeding forward; perhaps this creation is not adept at fighting but is used more for its scouting abilities; perhaps, this creation is also a skilled tinkerer? So while it can't defuse a mine, it could trigger it really quickly and then run away; or it could attract mobs and lure them towards the PC? Perhaps it could give clues to certain puzzles that may arise in the game (this could come in handy if the PC ever gets lost or confused/doesn't know what to do)?

8. Multipurpose Items: For this suggestion, I feel like some items could be multipurpose; perhaps, there's a type of spores that can cure many types of ailments? For example, the spore could cure acid, poison, slowed condition, stun condition, etc etc. Perhaps a living tool that can do the unconventional, like repairing the aforementioned garden or crafting house I mentioned in Point 6. Perhaps thorn batons that can be used in melee, except they'd be weaker than traditional melee weapons and could potentially break? 

9. Having Creations Be Pack Mules: I feel like some creations would be great at carrying the PC's items; for example, the Roamer, Clawbug, Drayk, Battle Alpha, Glaahk are all great creations that could potentially shoulder the burden; only, implementing this feature is not easy and I understand if it's not doable; it would be interesting, though.

10. A Starter Creation: I noticed in the opening slides for Geneforge 2 that the PC has a companion Fyora? Perhaps the PC can choose at the start of the game what type of starter creation they were traveling with, be it a starter Artila, Thahd, or Fyora. The limitation being that they have to be starter creations, not the higher tier creations, which is obvious.

 

Okay, I hope you like my suggestions and feel free to offer anything you guys think of! Thank you!

[alhoon]

Considering Geneforge 2 starts with the PC being the pack-mule for his Agent boss, and that he learns to make Fyoras by her in the early stages, I think it would be best to retain this as it is. Furthermore, I think many of the suggestions you present are balance-stretching and would disproportionally favor the Shaper compared to Agents and Guardians. 

[Wizardman468]

I do agree that these suggestions are unbalanced and favor shapers more than agents and guardians. I guess when I was coming up with these suggestions, I didn't factor in that it would affect agents and guardians and other aspects of gameplay. Perhaps, bits and pieces of my suggestions could be implemented in some way, shape or form? I do apologize. These suggestions just popped up in my head and if I don't write them down, they just fade away. I haven't posted in a while, and I should have put more thought into this post, but I thought, what better opportunity than now to post, because the Geneforge 2 remaster is in the making. Thanks for your feedback, though!

[alhoon]

Nothing to apologize for, friend. I just said an opinion. This is a forum meant for exact that kind of thing. You have an idea? An opinion?  By all means, share it. I didn't mean to come off as negatively criticizing. My opinion has the exact same weight as yours. 

[Wizardman468]

Understood. I didn't see your feedback as negative at all. It was rather constructive feedback. It was nice hearing your opinion on my suggestions! Thank you! 

[Goldengirl]

It’d be neat to have creations be able to wear one (1) item that would give them some small buff. Maybe each item would be creation specific? Imagine a battle alpha with brass knuckles.

 

Justice for Sharon, what is her fate in each of the endgames?

[Wizardman468]

Hi Goldengirl,

That's a very interesting suggestion you listed! I like that idea. I was thinking how there are runes in the game (the runes on the ground in the Shaper Laboratories and other similar locations). I know only the most powerful shapers can craft those runes. However, what if the PC learned the runes and could eventually be able to utilize them? The runes could potentially be etched on the creations you create? Perhaps they would grant the creation a certain behavior, ability, or even appearance change? It's not like taming it; it's more like a perk, but flavored in a different way, as it's not an innate bonus, but an appearance bonus that gives the added effect of more behavior, ability and other capabilities. Again, I like the idea of having creations only wear one item specific to them. I like the idea of a battle alpha wearing brass knuckles. It also seems logical for battle alphas to be able to wear chitin armor or chainmail armor, a sturdy girdle and perhaps even a basic helmet? The possibilities are endless! Thanks to both Alhoon and Goldengirl for the constructive feedback!

 

As for Sharon, I feel like she would have went into hiding? Or could she have met a different fate? I honestly don't know. But, thanks for bringing that up! I always wondered what happened to Sharon. I guess we can only imagine what happened to her and fashion our own tale. Thanks again!

[ultra112]

I do like the idea of Tertiary creations, perhaps this one could be given to loyalist to help even out the odds in the power struggle of Drypeak, also I wonder if we could save Shanti in the remake, cause it could be an interesting development to see in the game and not to mention the skill system for companions

[alhoon]

Shanti will probably be in the new game, she was important and the way to tie-in the character. 

[ultra112]

I know she will, it's just I wonder if we could rescue her before she is killed

[Randomizer]

Her death is plot significant. Although one game I didn't find her body until after I got the dialogue from her kidnappers farther along in the game.

[Slawbug]

Shanti is also, next to Erika, arguably the most broadly beloved character Jeff has created.  I sincerely hope the remake does her justice.

[alhoon]

I really liked Shanti and I believe she could, with time, be persuaded to join the Awakened if she wasn't killed (I.e. join Astoria's faction 15 years later). But knowing what I feel playing those games, I would have killed her if it came to it. And I believe it would be a tense moment if you have to decide to fight and kill your mentor that protected and shielded you in the early days before you became a power-hungry self-shaped freak liberator and warrior against Shaper Tyranny. 

It is the kind of sacrifice and hard choice you need for power the cause. 

Edited December 23, 2022 by alhoon

[ultra112]

I do think that the G2 remake would be a great start to introduce faction based creations, as it might help even out the odds among the factions that might come to play and emphasis on the creation design philosophy of each factions

[alhoon]

1 hour ago, ultra112 said:

I do think that the G2 remake would be a great start to introduce faction based creations, as it might help even out the odds among the factions that might come to play and emphasis on the creation design philosophy of each factions

This would be problematic, from what I recall from GF2. A great part of GF2 was factions stealing creations from other factions. Barzites made the Rots that others copied. Takers made the Drakons that others copied. etc. 

[ultra112]

yeah just for the Barzites and the Takers, but I do wonder if that can be done with the awakened and the loyalist as well in the form of a quest.

[Randomizer]

With the number of factions in gf2, it would be harder to balance the game so there aren't better factions. The next two games only have two sides, so you can do it easier.

[Mechalibur]

In general, I would like to see a bit more reason to join the Awakened, and have the Loyalists fleshed out a bit. I think the Loyalist and Awakened intentionally gave fewer rewards since they were a lot easier to join, though.

[Slawbug]

The lack of rewards also makes some sense thematically.

 

The Loyalists you can actually join in G2 are Zakary's Loyalists, and they are presented as, well, a little bit dippy and pathetic.  The non-aligned ending where you kill all the leaders, including Zakary, was arguably a much better Loyalist outcome.

 

As for the Awakened... wait.  Maybe I'm misremembering, but don't you have to join the Awakened for Tuldaric to Augment you?  That's a pretty huge reward, considering there's no way to duplicate it.

[Mechalibur]

If I remember correctly, getting augmented by Tuldaric doesn't change your stats or anything, it just expands the spells he's willing to teach you. Which is nice, but I think the Barzites/Takers could teach you most of those spells as well. It's been a while so I could be wrong, though.

[Slawbug]

Looks like we're each half right: you do have to be "altered" to use any of the high level spells, full stop.  Tuldaric is the one who invents altering and so when the game opens, only the Awakened can alter you.  If you join the Takers or the Barzites, the first thing they will demand, once you've been let in, is to steal Tuldaric's research; after doing so, they will alter you.

[ultra112]

I think the altering should have increase your spell casting stats too

[Genernumlover]

The Shapers and Awakened were kind of the default sane factions in Geneforge 2. Barzites were the extreme version of Shapers and Takers were the extreme version of Awakened. Because of that dynamic, there was a bit of the "good guys get less rewards" trope going on if you joined the Shapers or Awakened.

 

The thing with Zakary is that all of his attempts at stopping the rogue factions hinge on the player helping him. He has, arguably, the most stable and reliable band of Shapers in the mountains. He should be able to do something more than he did.

 

The Awakened ending needs some work too. In light of the later Geneforge games, Drakons go rogue so easily that the Awakened ending is more a prelude to disaster rather than the founding of a sanctuary.

 

 

[alhoon]

On 12/25/2022 at 9:15 PM, Mechalibur said:

In general, I would like to see a bit more reason to join the Awakened, and have the Loyalists fleshed out a bit. I think the Loyalist and Awakened intentionally gave fewer rewards since they were a lot easier to join, though.

 

O_O

I found it hard to join ANY other faction than the Awakened in GF2. I dropped my Barzite run of GF2 when they asked me to sabotage the Awakened. I consider the Awakened the best rebel faction in their point of view: Willing to fight but not to burn anything to the ground. They are more moderate than the Takers. Barzites are practically the most evil, like worse than the "Starting" Shapers were before their laws. But unlike the starting Shapers the Barzites have access to a century+ of research so they are much more powerful and dangerous. 

 

  

On 12/28/2022 at 1:14 AM, Genernumlover said:

The thing with Zakary is that all of his attempts at stopping the rogue factions hinge on the player helping him. He has, arguably, the most stable and reliable band of Shapers in the mountains. He should be able to do something more than he did.

 

Zakary is a coward hiding from both the Shapers whom he betrayed and his apprentice that betrayed him. He lies to the PC and the PC's agent boss which hinders their efforts to do anything about the situation Zakary is arguably responsible for (he was Barzal's boss, what happened falls on his shoulders). Zakary is a steaming pile of poo. Of battle-beta poo.  

Edited January 13, 2023 by alhoon

[Slawbug]

  

On 5/14/2017 at 7:26 PM, alhoon said:

Zakary lied!? ... everything Zakary told us is not just a lie, it's the opposite of truth ... "Shaper Zakary is a pathetic liar!" ... that lying piece of Ornk poop, Zakary ... the source of all lies, Zakary ... More lies of lying Zakary the Deceiver ... Lying Zakary the shaking Deceiver ... I don't believe anything Zakary says .. Lying Zakary the Deceiver ... Just when you think you have seen the end of Zakary's lies ... How nice of Zakary to "forget" to mention that ... The Lying deceiving coward (Zakary) ... Lying Zakary the Deceiver ... Lying Zakary the Deceiver's misdirection, knows no bounds ... I can't think of any statement of importance that Zakary didn't lie at ... Lying Zakary the Deceiver ... Zakary is deceitful. I don't think I've seen any character many characters (to be more precise) as deceitful in the decades that I play games ... Once upon a time, Lying Zakary the Deceiver wanted more money to waste on his growing gambling habit. So he invented a whole new continent and tried to sell tickets to there to outsiders, shipping them mostly to Sucia island ... So Zakary in his efforts to hide his duplicity jumped to the task ... I want to see lying Zakary the deceiver's tears as he begs for his useless life. And since I can't see them, I want to read the text ... lying Zakary the Deceiver ... Lying Zakary the Deceiver ... Lying Zakary the Deceiver has alienated me so much ... my unmitigated hate for Lying Zakary the Deceiver

 

[Mechalibur]

On 1/13/2023 at 3:14 AM, alhoon said:

 

O_O

I found it hard to join ANY other faction than the Awakened in GF2. I dropped my Barzite run of GF2 when they asked me to sabotage the Awakened. I consider the Awakened the best rebel faction in their point of view: Willing to fight but not to burn anything to the ground. They are more moderate than the Takers. Barzites are practically the most evil, like worse than the "Starting" Shapers were before their laws. But unlike the starting Shapers the Barzites have access to a century+ of research so they are much more powerful and dangerous. 

 

I meant in terms of gameplay rewards, not morality. 

[alhoon]

On 1/13/2023 at 10:16 PM, handle with air said:

  

 

 

Yeap. My hate for Lying Zakary the Deceiver has mellowed but not completely. I still hate that guy. I don't think I dislike anyone else in the GF universe as much as Zakary. Bazral comes second, Rawal 3rd and Taigen 4th. Rarely I am able to name those I hate in a clear order going so far. 

That annoying Guardian in GF3, Lord ??? 's guardian outside that tells to go find a farmer, and insults you in GF4 and dies in GF5 as Alwan's sidekick is also in the list but further up. So is Galdring. 

[Mechalibur]

Zackary sucks, but Rawal is definitely the worst offender for me. Especially since you're not supposed to kill him.

[Amira The Hot Potato]

On 1/17/2023 at 1:17 PM, alhoon said:

 

Yeap. My hate for Lying Zakary the Deceiver has mellowed but not completely. I still hate that guy. I don't think I dislike anyone else in the GF universe as much as Zakary. Bazral comes second, Rawal 3rd and Taigen 4th. Rarely I am able to name those I hate in a clear order going so far. 

That annoying Guardian in GF3, Lord ??? 's guardian outside that tells to go find a farmer, and insults you in GF4 and dies in GF5 as Alwan's sidekick is also in the list but further up. So is Galdring. 

I think you mean Lord Rahul if I'm not mistaken xD

[alhoon]

Yes, The guardian you meet outside Shaper Rahul's castle, that doesn't allow you to see him and treats you like trash. 

[Elyssaen]

On 12/10/2022 at 12:25 PM, Wizardman468 said:

1. In-combat shaping: During playing some sessions of Geneforge, I noticed some enemy shapers can shape and absorb creations at will in the middle of combat; perhaps this trait could be used tactically by the PC shaper in certain scenarios? Perhaps, say, you're being surrounded by a mob of rogue creations that aren't yours, you could absorb all your creations and then cast a really strong daze spell and aura of flames and boom, you're well on your way to victory; or, you could create creations in the middle of combat; this could help give you the extra firepower you need to finish off a fight

I really like this. I've thought it'd be fun if there were different playstyles with creations, including a way to focus on disposability more. Being able to shape an Unstable Thahd or similar mid-fight could be a useful option, especially for Guardians. As you say as well, absorbing your own creations tactically would be a new dimension to the choices you make. Something else would be if a way to absorb some essence from your creations on death (maybe via an artifact level item), which could synergise well with being able to shape in combat to open up new playstyles.

 

On 12/10/2022 at 12:25 PM, Wizardman468 said:

2. Creations that can heal others: Now I know this suggestion may be a bit overpowered, but I feel like it is necessary in cases where the PC shaper is low on essence and spell energy and is low health; in this scenario, the creation with the healing ability can heal surrounding allied creations and the PC

I'm not too sure about this one. On the one hand, if creations can do more and more magic, then magic loses value and shaping becomes too strong. On the other hand, conversely, support creations could sometimes be more of a buff to Guardians and Agents rather than Shapers, depending on how they're designed. Being able to heal surrounding allied creations is going to specifically buff Shapers though, I'd rather see a support creation that can sit back and buff one target – a Guardian would love that.

 

On 12/10/2022 at 12:25 PM, Wizardman468 said:

4. Different types of damaging terrain: I feel like aside from areas that are contagious, like some areas in Geneforge (contagious as in acidic and poisonous), I feel like maybe Artila spits could form pools of acid? Wingbolt beams could leave traces of lightning that deal damage over time; Rotgroths could leave behind traces of poisonous decay and clouds, etc etc.

I'd be on board with some stuff like that. Mutagen seems to have a lot of long range attacks and huge AOEs that mean positioning often doesn't feel that important. Environmental hazards like you describe could make positioning much more important and make for even more interesting gameplay sometimes.

 

On 12/10/2022 at 12:25 PM, Wizardman468 said:

5. Tertiary Creations: By tertiary creations, I mean like the Battle Gamma. I always wondered if you could create them, and it would be a really nice addition to have that ability. My logic is that if you learn to create a Battle Alpha enough times, you could potentially upgrade it to a Battle Gamma. Now, you can still create Battle Beta, but the Battle Gamma would just cost more essence and be harder to control. The same goes for the Fyora. I always thought that Charged Fyoras were cool and it would be really nice if they were a tier above Cryoas, but you would need to learn to create Fyora enough times to be able to create it. The other creations would follow the same path; so the third tier of the Vlish could be a Terror Vlish or even a Vlish that can charm (I forgot the name of this particular Vlish)

I think that might be a bit too much complexity! I think instead my #1 wishlist item for Geneforge 2 (*) is for more diversification of existing creation roles, esp. the upgraded versions. The Battle Beta is an excellent example. The optional active/passive abilities mean that the Beta could be a very different beast than the Alpha – maybe the Alpha's a shock troop and the Beta's a tank/support? I wouldn't want to see Alphas, Betas and Gammas but them not be meaningfully different. Whereas if we have 1) more differentiation between upgraded versions than Mutagen, 3) rebalance of any stragglers that don't get used much (Pyroroamer?), 3) the Tier 4 creations G2 already has and 4) one more original creation like the Cockatrice, there's honestly going to be an enormous amount of choice.

 

(*) Except for the stuff Jeff has already said is coming, around more options for martial combat.

[Mechalibur]

I agree with more diverse upgrades for creations. Battle Alphas and Battle Betas having identical skillsets is disappointing. I don't think they need to be wildly different or anything, but I'd appreciate something even relatively small like replacing their leap with an AoE attack.

Edited February 17, 2023 by Mechalibur

[ultra112]

 

On 2/17/2023 at 8:13 AM, Elyssaen said:

I really like this. I've thought it'd be fun if there were different playstyles with creations, including a way to focus on disposability more. Being able to shape an Unstable Thahd or similar mid-fight could be a useful option, especially for Guardians. As you say as well, absorbing your own creations tactically would be a new dimension to the choices you make. Something else would be if a way to absorb some essence from your creations on death (maybe via an artifact level item), which could synergise well with being able to shape in combat to open up new playstyles.

 

I'm not too sure about this one. On the one hand, if creations can do more and more magic, then magic loses value and shaping becomes too strong. On the other hand, conversely, support creations could sometimes be more of a buff to Guardians and Agents rather than Shapers, depending on how they're designed. Being able to heal surrounding allied creations is going to specifically buff Shapers though, I'd rather see a support creation that can sit back and buff one target – a Guardian would love that.

 

I'd be on board with some stuff like that. Mutagen seems to have a lot of long range attacks and huge AOEs that mean positioning often doesn't feel that important. Environmental hazards like you describe could make positioning much more important and make for even more interesting gameplay sometimes.

 

I think that might be a bit too much complexity! I think instead my #1 wishlist item for Geneforge 2 (*) is for more diversification of existing creation roles, esp. the upgraded versions. The Battle Beta is an excellent example. The optional active/passive abilities mean that the Beta could be a very different beast than the Alpha – maybe the Alpha's a shock troop and the Beta's a tank/support? I wouldn't want to see Alphas, Betas and Gammas but them not be meaningfully different. Whereas if we have 1) more differentiation between upgraded versions than Mutagen, 3) rebalance of any stragglers that don't get used much (Pyroroamer?), 3) the Tier 4 creations G2 already has and 4) one more original creation like the Cockatrice, there's honestly going to be an enormous amount of choice.

 

(*) Except for the stuff Jeff has already said is coming, around more options for martial combat.

I do agree with the diversification of creation roles, as this problem became quite apparent in mutagen, because even the Dryak's skillset are completely the same as the Fyora only stronger.