Post-game spoiler discussion

[moonscience]

I hope this isn't a duplicate thread.  I'm using this as a starting point from Randomizer:

 

Quote

Things that affect the ending:

Leaving before reaching the Geneforge - Trajkov victory

Giving the real gloves to Trajkov

Killing Trajkov and telling Goettsch

Using the Geneforge

Destroying the Geneforge

Killing a sect leader

I finished my blind playthrough today, killing both Trajkov and Goettsch, touching the geneforge and then destroying it.  I was pretty amazed about how involved the ending was!  I quickly followed it by doing the easy 'help trajkov' ending where he touches the geneforge and I report it to the shapers.  This ending really surprised me because I felt like it was the easy 'bad' ending but might have turned out better than the one I originally chose.  

I still have a lot of the game to complete (my whole map isn't filled out, lots of quests aren't finished), but really anxious to try out several other endings.  Was hoping to generate some discussion about preferred endings and how they play into the other geneforge games.

[googoogjoob]

4 hours ago, moonscience said:

I quickly followed it by doing the easy 'help trajkov' ending where he touches the geneforge and I report it to the shapers.  This ending really surprised me because I felt like it was the easy 'bad' ending but might have turned out better than the one I originally chose.

If you've either left Ellhrah alive and fought your way to Trajkov then helped him, or passed the Leadership check to join the Takers without killing Ellhrah, the Trajkov ending is actually, curiously, probably the best possible ending for the Awakened.

 

Spoiler

Spoilers for later games follow: Geneforge 1's endings are curiously different from those of any other Geneforge game, I think, probably because the original game was planned as a standalone, rather than the first entry in a series. In subsequent Geneforges, the endings tend to be less exuberant, and less overtly wish-fulfilment-y, and less likely (except for 5) to suggest permanent settlements- because the fictional universe has been further developed, and because the rules and stakes are clearer. But with 1, anything goes, kind of. If you side with the Awakened in Geneforge 2, the ending is basically, "you manage to isolate the valley for an indeterminate period of time, and hope it can hold out;" if you side with the Rebels in 3, you get something like, "the Rebellion manages to take and hold the Ashen Isles, but greater battles await on the mainland." In Geneforge 1, if you side with Trajkov, he comprehensively destroys the Shapers, and takes control of Terrestia, and that appears to be that.

 

I think it's also curious that Trajkov proves to be basically honest and trustworthy. He's built up across the course of the game, via others' testimony, as a brash, unstable brute who demands total loyalty. But if you side with him- it turns out that he really does keep his promises to you, and to the Takers. He makes you his right hand, and establishes legal equality for sapient creations. He does this via destroying the Shapers, and taking personal command of Terrestia, and maybe that really is his primary goal- but he doesn't go power-mad. What he does isn't all that different from what the Drakons of 3-5 claim they want to do- only, unlike the Drakons, there's never even a hint that he'll turn on his allies.

 

I think there are maybe extra-universal reasons for this. I think that perhaps the reason the Trajkov ending is so unambiguously positive in these ways, is that Jeff Vogel didn't want any of the (proper) endings to be downers, after the struggle the player's made to attain them. And maybe, if he had decided to follow up on the Trajkov ending as canon, Trajkov would indeed have turned power-mad, in order to provide conflict in the sequels. But regardless of these external concerns, I think the game as it stands makes Trajkov one of the more interesting and compelling characters of the series: more sincere and committed than the Drakons are; the only character in the series to demonstrably be able to withstand the mind-warping power of a fully-powered Geneforge; and his wholesale disgust for the Shaper system, and his openness and eloquence in criticizing its injustices, makes him a more interesting and developed nemesis to the Shapers than we'd see again until Geneforge 4.

[ultra112]

We can't be certain about that since that ending may not be canon, so there is a huge possibility that he end up going power mad like the PC whom used the Geneforge.

[moonscience]

Thanks for the commentary googoogjoob, I was really surprised by the Trajkov ending.  As my first spiderweb game, I'm happy that it's left me in a place where I actually want to use my current game to explore as many of the other endings as possible.  Plenty of other RPGs where I'd pretty much be done with the game right now.  I'm anxious to see what happens when I return to the shapers with news of a still-active geneforge.

 

The big question is, is there any ending where the Obeyers actually come out on top (or at least not completely wrecked)?  I feel like what they are actually, truly hoping for doesn't exist, so there's no ending where they won't be exploited/crushed.  I almost don't want this question answered, but a simple yes/no would be nice.

[googoogjoob]

4 hours ago, moonscience said:

The big question is, is there any ending where the Obeyers actually come out on top (or at least not completely wrecked)?

Spoiler

Yes. If you do as the Obeyers wish- that is, destroy the Geneforge without anyone having used it- and of course assuming you haven't murdered their leader- the Obeyers get basically what they want.

 

It's worth noting that while each faction of Serviles wants you to do something different in the endgame, it's not exactly right to describe the endings as tied to factions- it's possible to get the Trajkov ending without ever joining the Takers, or to get the Obeyer ending having joined the Awakened, etc. What matters is what you do in the endgame, and which faction leaders are alive at the end of the game.

 

Also maybe worth noting: While each successive Geneforge game establishes certain events from the prior game as canon, the canon series of events never precisely matches up with a specific potential ending of the prior game.

 

On 5/3/2021 at 10:50 AM, ultra112 said:

We can't be certain about that since that ending may not be canon, so there is a huge possibility that he end up going power mad like the PC whom used the Geneforge.

Spoiler

While there's room in canon for several of the Geneforge endgames to have happened- there's nothing in the other games that'd contradict either the player using the Geneforge or not, or the Geneforge either surviving or being destroyed- the only way for the Trajkov ending to fit into the canon is to assume that he failed in his invasion of Terrestia, and died. He's certainly dead by the time of Geneforge 2. This means that all the evidence we have about Trajkov as a character comes from Geneforge 1, basically, and none of it indicates that he'd go insane. Since Jeff chose to make Trajkov's death canonical, we just can't know what he would have intended for Trajkov had he lived.

 

[moonscience]

Just came up in conversation with another friend playing the game, but assuming we need MORE endings, I'm surprised there isn't one where you destroy the boat, actively refusing to leave.  Maybe you go on to rule Sucia with an iron fist, or you defend Sucia from invaders?   All the endings seem to be about leaving the island, but it seems that staying forever could also be an option.

[TriRodent]

Yes & no.  You do need a reason for Chapters 2-5 which tend to only come about if the secret does make it off the island.  True, the 'red goo' makes it off island no matter what ending you choose, so it probably doesn't matter in the long run.  But I could relatively easily imagine a scenario where if you did decide to stay, that 'everyone' on the island decides to gang up on you (no matter the casualties taken) & end your iron fist rule (the shoreline of Sucia being just too big to completely defend all points at all times).  Your Geneforge powers can only go so far.  Like Stalin said, 'quantity has a quality all it's own...

[googoogjoob]

2 hours ago, moonscience said:

I'm surprised there isn't one where you destroy the boat, actively refusing to leave.  Maybe you go on to rule Sucia with an iron fist, or you defend Sucia from invaders?   All the endings seem to be about leaving the island, but it seems that staying forever could also be an option.

There not being such an ending doesn't really make sense from a player-choice perspective, but I think it makes sense from a thematic perspective. Sucia is deliberately set up as sort of a microcosm representing the injustices and latent, potential problems of Shaper society, and the endings are ultimately about the effect on Shaper society of what happens on Sucia. None of the factions on Sucia are content with indefinite isolation, and the thrust of the story is towards re-establishing contact with the Shapers on the mainland. If you don't return to the mainland, it'll probably be a long, long time before the mainland Shapers even realize anything is amiss on Sucia, as they don't seem to even keep an eye on it- nobody's been there legally in a century or more. (And illegally- the young Shapers you can meet in the southeastern docks are an addition to the remake, rather than part of the original conception of the game.)

 

Spoiler

(Geneforge 2 is similarly set in an isolated location, and similarly doesn't allow for a "kill everyone and rule your petty kingdom" ending, but one of its major endings is basically isolationist, reflecting developments since 1.)

 

44 minutes ago, TriRodent said:

You do need a reason for Chapters 2-5 which tend to only come about if the secret does make it off the island.  True, the 'red goo' makes it off island no matter what ending you choose, so it probably doesn't matter in the long run.

Geneforge 1 was originally conceived of as a standalone game. The original version has no sequel hooks at all, and wasn't designed to be easily followed up. The vial of red goo is an addition to the remake. Thus, the reasons for requiring the player to return to the mainland must, I think, be thematic, rather than to tie into future planned games.

[moonscience]

TriRodent & Googoogjoob, thanks for at least entertaining my idea.  I think there's enough in the game to suggest an ending like that, but it may not fit into the Jeff's vision.  That said, I was also hoping for things like defeating Trajkov allowing for further reasoning with the Takers, but unfortunately no.  It seems the world can be molded only so much!