Can't join the Takers?

[BenS]

Apparently Gnorrel doesn't care for how I've spoken throughout the game to various serviles prior to meeting her, so there's no option to join the Takers even though I say that's what I want. Oh, and even though I've done both (odious) quests for Eko Blade, and worse, killed Ellhrah like Nabb tasked me w/ doing early game. Surely the game should recognize a major boon to the Takers by killing Ellhrah, and I thought Eko Blade was supposed to speak for me as well. It shouldn't be this hard.

 

Do I have to scour maps I've been through and retry conversation threads w/ named serviles just to try and reverse whatever damage I've done to my reputation w/ the Takers? I'm not thrilled w/ that prospect, but I'll be even less thrilled if I'm actually perma-locked out from joining the Takers now.

[googoogjoob]

Learned Darian, in the Peaceful Vale, can enable you to join a sect, regardless of your stated opinions- but he can only do this once. If you've already used this, then you're probably locked out of joining the Takers- opinion-affecting dialogue options are mutually exclusive, and you cannot redo conversations to take the opposite option.

[BenS]

7 hours ago, googoogjoob said:

Learned Darian, in the Peaceful Vale, can enable you to join a sect, regardless of your stated opinions- but he can only do this once. If you've already used this, then you're probably locked out of joining the Takers- opinion-affecting dialogue options are mutually exclusive, and you cannot redo conversations to take the opposite option.

Thank you, that's true, and he's easily accessible at this point so that's what I'll do. I still think it's an oversight that what I've already done, in terms of quests, for the Takers (and I forgot to mention the one about turning in the spy for them just north of the city), doesn't easily outweigh whatever opinions I might have made out in the proverbial field. There should be a different dialogue screen w/ Gnorrel along the lines of "Despite your wrongheaded opinions, your many deeds for our cause have spoken louder than words...".

[Iguana-on-a-stick]

Problem is that those actions could ALSO be done by a really hard-line shaper who believes all rogues should be purged and all the serviles should die. (cough, agent whatsherface in the south east.)

So I can see why the takers are loath to trust mr. "talks a lot about how all serviles are animals born to serve the Shapers, kills a lot of serviles, and goes around to claims he did it for our sake."

[ĐªгŦĦ Єяŋϊε]

Which is why I avoid answering as much of these questions as I can

[BenS]

8 hours ago, Iguana-on-a-stick said:

Problem is that those actions could ALSO be done by a really hard-line shaper who believes all rogues should be purged and all the serviles should die. (cough, agent whatsherface in the south east.)

So I can see why the takers are loath to trust mr. "talks a lot about how all serviles are animals born to serve the Shapers, kills a lot of serviles, and goes around to claims he did it for our sake."

You've mistaken what I've been saying to the serviles. I tried to answer as each faction would appreciate as I made my way through their mini-realms and did quests for them. So, for the Awakened, I answered one way, and for the Obeyers, another. When possible.

 

I acknowledge that the game is keeping score behind the scenes on what my PC says to the serviles in general, but in this particular case, when I did major quests for the Takers (and Eko Blade alluded to the fact he'd put in a good word for me), the score should swing wildly & decisively back in my favor when I claim I want to join them. They admit they need my help!

 

Anyway, I've probably said all I can on the subject. The game allows me an escape clause, and I'll take it and move on.

[BenS]

One final (?) addendum, as I've now experienced how getting the do-over thanks to Learned Darian works in practice. Gnorrel's speech was changed as if I had been speaking to serviles in a way the Takers appreciated all along. I was given the chance (Kill Ellhrah) to earn my way in. So far, so good. But also there was dialogue referencing how Eko Blade had spoken up for me. Good, I guess. But I think the game got a little confused about the Kill Ellhrah quest. I believe I got a quest completed notification, lots of xp, the key to the back, etc. But the actual quest didn't clear from my open quest log. Minor, but just noting it.

[googoogjoob]

3 hours ago, BenS said:

I acknowledge that the game is keeping score behind the scenes on what my PC says to the serviles in general, but in this particular case, when I did major quests for the Takers (and Eko Blade alluded to the fact he'd put in a good word for me), the score should swing wildly & decisively back in my favor when I claim I want to join them. They admit they need my help!

The trick is- as Iguana noted- while you helped the Takers by killing Ellhrah, killing Ellhrah isn't exclusively in the Takers' interests. It also benefits the Obeyers (who have been quietly working to keep the Awakened weak and contained), and it's also something a hardcore loyalist Shaper might do, as the Awakened are all clearly irretrievably rogue. Both the Takers and arch-loyalist Arixy can give you quests to kill Ellhrah (although not simultaneously)- and performing the same action can hardly swing your reputation both ways at once. (You can also kill Ellhrah on your own initiative, purely for the experience and loot from doing so, with no real ideological convictions behind it.) From the Takers' perspective- they want to know, on the one hand, that you're willing to burn bridges with other factions to gain their favor, but also, on the other, that you're sympathetic to their cause, and ideologically reliable, so that you'll be a suitable ally. Freelance homicide doesn't do much to illustrate the latter.

 

Unlike subsequent Geneforge games, it's pretty easy to join each faction in 1 in turn. (It's particularly possible given that which faction you join doesn't limit your options in the endgame, and faction membership has no bearing on the endings.) But doing so requires deliberately gaming the system, and the ability to do so should, I think, be regarded as a "gamey" mechanical thing, which the workings of the game happen to allow for, rather than something that particularly makes sense in-universe.

[BenS]

I appreciate the argument, but I can't agree. The Takers actually have 2 separate quests to kill Ellhrah. The one from Nabb in Vakkiri, and the "initiation to the Takers b/c my Leadership is insufficient" version directly from Gnorrel. So when I killed Ellhrah, I was specifically doing it on behalf of the Takers (via Nabb). Not to mention the other 3-4 Taker-specific quests. I just think it's a flaw in the flow of the game not to weigh those more heavily than what I might have said to some random servile; and keep in mind, I don't believe I was exactly pro-Obeyer up until the point I came into the Takers' area.

 

Anyway, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

[TriRodent]

11 hours ago, BenS said:

I tried to answer as each faction would appreciate

 

I tried to talk Jeff into allowing answers like that for tactical or self preservation reasons - "Hello big strong leader who hates me & is looking for an excuse to start a fight, (even though I think you're an !@#$!!~! & despise you...), love what you're doing with the place..." (lie) - or - "Hello grieving servile, even though I think you're a moron for your Shaper worship, your mate didn't die in vain..." (lie).  Etc

 

Something that you could answer but wouldn't swing your reputation around wildly if you answered like you would in real life instead of being forced to consider game impact by responding how you want your reputation to shift towards.

 

Ah well, maybe off in the future.

[Mechalibur]

It's not even that your overall reputation needs to be pro-servile, but it has to he pro servile by at least 10 points. If you're going back and forth based on who you're talking to, I can see how you wouldn't reach that threshold. 

 

As far as I'm aware, your reputation is mostly affected by dialogue. I don't know if any quests affect it at all.

[Iguana-on-a-stick]

You've mistaken what I've been saying to the serviles. I tried to answer as each faction would appreciate as I made my way through their mini-realms and did quests for them. So, for the Awakened, I answered one way, and for the Obeyers, another.

 

Yeah, this is where the "universal tracker of what you said" mechanic becomes a bit simplistic. I actually did much the same thing in my playthrough, as my shaper was generally fairly uninterested in servile politics and just nodded and smiled and agreed with them when they asked him questions so as to get past them faster.

 

But on that same note he did not try to join any. (He did at one point feed the Takers to his Cryoas for reasons of them being in league with outsider enemies.)

 

The universal reputation tracker can still be kind of justified if we assume the serviles are incurable gossips and that the new Shaper is their number 2 favourite topic, after the weather and before the plague of rogue monsters. Then a shaper like this comes across as ambivalent or disingenuous. (which he is.)

Kind of falls flat with the story claiming the Takers have pretty much closed their borders, so it comes down to a handful of spies on each side still communicating. And also kind of falls flat when it tracks things you told Servile Hermit no. 4 in the deep wilderness.

 

I tried to talk Jeff into allowing answers like that for tactical or self preservation reasons - "Hello big strong leader who hates me & is looking for an excuse to start a fight, (even though I think you're an !@#$!!~! & despise you...), love what you're doing with the place..." (lie) - or - "Hello grieving servile, even though I think you're a moron for your Shaper worship, your mate didn't die in vain..." (lie).  Etc

 

I would have loved that option. Ever since Planescape:Torment I have liked the inclusion of lying in games like these.

 

You could even keep the reputation impact the same and make the option purely cosmetic.

 

Or add some "neutral" options that have no impact on reputation.

"Yes, that is a very interesting opinion. I shall have to think on this further."

"You don't say? I'd love to comment, but I need to feed my Fyora."

[Mechalibur]

Or the classic, "I should go."

[Micawber]

Are there any points where you are forced to give an opinion?  I can't recall any.  Usually you can just close the dialog and avoid responding.  I seem to recall a few forced opinions later in the series (but it's been a while).

 

Edit: Was it Geneforge 4 which gave you the option of the fabulous response, "I intend to find out whoever has the most treasure, kill them and take it, then repeat the process"? 😆

Edited March 24, 2021 by Micawber

[Randomizer]

I'm trying to remember where an option was I'm just doing this for the money and the person you are talking to is upset that you motive is pure greed and not picking a side.

[Iguana-on-a-stick]

3 hours ago, Micawber said:

Are there any points where you are forced to give an opinion?  I can't recall any.  Usually you can just close the dialog and avoid responding.  I seem to recall a few forced opinions later in the series (but it's been a while).

 That is true. You can usually just click the dialog away or not select the dialog option that prompts the question in the first place. I have done so when I really did not think my character would say either response.

 

But that feels a bit awkward RP wise. A diplomatic/neutral/wishy-washy option would feel more natural.

 

It would have one mechanical difference: clicking the dialog away keeps option available in case you go back to talk to that NPC in the future. Selecting a neutral response would still count as giving a response.

[TriRodent]

3 hours ago, Randomizer said:

I'm trying to remember where an option was I'm just doing this for the money and the person you are talking to is upset that you motive is pure greed and not picking a side.

That was a response with an early interview/welcome to the fortress talk with Redbeard, but he liked your honesty so that's probably not it.

[dionysis]

Up until reaching Kazg, I've been mildly pro-Awakened and have allied with the Awakened (Ellrah is alive), haven't turned in Nabb, etc. But now i'm leaning towards allying with the Takers...

 

Here's my problem... I killed some Sholai at the Guarded Bridge and have no idea who I killed or how that will affect the game play....

Anyone have any insight on my trajectory with the Takers?

[The Almighty Doer of Stuff]

BenS, irreversible reputation tracker aside, your Shaper character seems like a lying, sycophantic hypocrite. If I was a Taker, I would steer clear of them too.

[alhoon]

1 hour ago, dionysis said:

Up until reaching Kazg, I've been mildly pro-Awakened and have allied with the Awakened (Ellrah is alive), haven't turned in Nabb, etc. But now i'm leaning towards allying with the Takers...

 

Here's my problem... I killed some Sholai at the Guarded Bridge and have no idea who I killed or how that will affect the game play....

Anyone have any insight on my trajectory with the Takers?

I have loaded after killing the Sholai and I was very pro-Awakened till I found Kazg. Now I am ... ambivalent. Both factions appeal to me. I am not going to whack anyone for the other's side mob boss. I honestly wish there was an option to make them stop fighting. 
I planned to wipe out the Sholai or hit them hard once I was able to, but now I see they are needed if the Serviles are to be free (in the GF1 narrative). Knowing what comes next I am less inclined to hop in with them and I have not talked to any Sholai yet (I don't know the language) to see what they think of the Serviles. But, my main goal in this game is to make the serviles at least lessen their infighting. Which, I admit means beating back the Takers as they have gone powermad and dropped in bed with the Sholai and throw monsters at all the others. The Sholai started the whole whooha but the Takers continue it. 

 

And yet, the Takers are what the Serviles need. I agree more, much more, with the Awakened but the Shapers would never listen to them. The Geneforge, an army of Shaped and Shaping invaders and cannisters are needed for the Serviles to break free and perhaps, one day, be able to discuss with Shapers. 

[Randomizer]

3 hours ago, dionysis said:

Up until reaching Kazg, I've been mildly pro-Awakened and have allied with the Awakened (Ellrah is alive), haven't turned in Nabb, etc. But now i'm leaning towards allying with the Takers...

 

Here's my problem... I killed some Sholai at the Guarded Bridge and have no idea who I killed or how that will affect the game play....

Anyone have any insight on my trajectory with the Takers?

It shouldn't make a difference since you haven't joined. Once you do and get the Amulet it makes a difference.

 

If you killed the  leader at the Guarded Bridge you can't talk with him and they may be hostile. However you can get around them using another route.

[Sudanna]

Unless you have very high Leadership, you will have to kill Ellrah to join the Takers. Randomizer's right about the Sholai at the bridge not mattering yet.

[alhoon]

When you say "very high leadership"... what are we talking about? Also, is there any leadership boosting item? 

[Randomizer]

Leadership 10 and the pro-servile opinion will avoid doing a quest to join.

 

You can get the Girdle f Leadership for +2 and buy training for a point in Leadership, but both are much later in the game,

[alhoon]

BUY training for leadership? I didn't know it was possible in GF1. Thank you. I will hold off choosing a faction till I get the Girdle. Or, if I go for too long, I will simply buy leadership 10. I am at leadership 8 right now and have 5 skill points left-over.